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Author Topic: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good  (Read 95581 times)

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #375 on: July 14, 2017, 10:40:25 PM »
Healthcare is not governed by a free market because that is the way the government has set it up. Yes, healthcare is a need but so is food, we manage to purchase that on a relatively free market without issue, healthcare should be on the same type of spectrum.

I know there was a bunch of debate about free market vs socialism and I'm going to avoid some of that absolutism in this response (not saying you are doing that)

I view this stuff on a spectrum with absolute free market(no government at all, libertarian wet dream) on one end and absolute socialism(single payer, super liberal wet dream). Currently, IMO healthcare as it is constructed is skewed far to close to the socialism end and needs to move closer to free market. There are far too many artificial mechanisms that result in poor healthcare results and/or inefficiencies in the market. One of the easiest examples is competition across state lines.

Examples of ways to make healthcare more truly free market:
-Eliminate state based definition of healthcare requirements (allow insurance to compete across state lines)
-Treat healthcare provided by companies to employees as revenue and tax it accordingly
-Eliminate companies ability to self insure, this will require individuals to purchase their own insurance on the market.....additionally it should make insurance truly portable as the individual is buying it not the company.

These things will never happen, but a boy can dream.

See, I'm not sure healthcare as constructed is skewed closer to socialism than it is to free market.

Obamacare lets insurance companies call a huge percentage - maybe even a majority - of the shots.
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rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #376 on: July 14, 2017, 11:50:55 PM »
See, I'm not sure healthcare as constructed is skewed closer to socialism than it is to free market.

Obamacare lets insurance companies call a huge percentage - maybe even a majority - of the shots.

should this be in teal?  if obamacare allowed the insurance companies to call the shots, it wouldn't be near the mess it is.  exhibit A-i don't want paternity care coverage.  insurance companies would gladly pool ala carte type coverage together.  across state lines woud be even better.  obamacare is one size fits all
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MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #377 on: July 15, 2017, 06:00:19 AM »
should this be in teal?  if obamacare allowed the insurance companies to call the shots, it wouldn't be near the mess it is.  exhibit A-i don't want paternity care coverage.  insurance companies would gladly pool ala carte type coverage together.  across state lines woud be even better.  obamacare is one size fits all

The insurance companies are partners with the government, and they lobbied excessively to have their place at the table. The drug companies, too, to a lesser extent.  The reason for the cost spike is that the insurance companies have to get theirs. The best way to cut costs would be to eliminate the middle man, but I'm resigned to the fact that - unlike almost every other developed nation in the world - we probably won't have universal healthcare in my lifetime.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #378 on: July 15, 2017, 06:16:33 AM »
The insurance companies are partners with the government, and they lobbied excessively to have their place at the table. The drug companies, too, to a lesser extent.  The reason for the cost spike is that the insurance companies have to get theirs. The best way to cut costs would be to eliminate the middle man

Actually the best way to cut costs would be to eliminate the government (the real middle man) from the equation and also allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:11:47 AM by Joeys Tap »

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #379 on: July 15, 2017, 08:51:14 AM »
Actually the best way to cut costs would be to eliminate the government (the real middle man) from the equation and also allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

On the surface, that makes sense as one way to help make it work. I am leery about how much actual competition there will be and how much that really would help, however. Insurance rates have risen at much higher than the cost of inflation all across the country for years, a situation that began back when Obama was still a community organizer.
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forgetful

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #380 on: July 15, 2017, 11:29:43 AM »
Healthcare is not governed by a free market because that is the way the government has set it up. Yes, healthcare is a need but so is food, we manage to purchase that on a relatively free market without issue, healthcare should be on the same type of spectrum.

I know there was a bunch of debate about free market vs socialism and I'm going to avoid some of that absolutism in this response (not saying you are doing that)

I view this stuff on a spectrum with absolute free market(no government at all, libertarian wet dream) on one end and absolute socialism(single payer, super liberal wet dream). Currently, IMO healthcare as it is constructed is skewed far to close to the socialism end and needs to move closer to free market. There are far too many artificial mechanisms that result in poor healthcare results and/or inefficiencies in the market. One of the easiest examples is competition across state lines.

Examples of ways to make healthcare more truly free market:
-Eliminate state based definition of healthcare requirements (allow insurance to compete across state lines)
-Treat healthcare provided by companies to employees as revenue and tax it accordingly
-Eliminate companies ability to self insure, this will require individuals to purchase their own insurance on the market.....additionally it should make insurance truly portable as the individual is buying it not the company.

These things will never happen, but a boy can dream.

How about we eliminate quotas on how many new doctors we have each year.  Allow anyone to practice medicine provided they pass a general knowledge/skills test.

Let the free-market decide who is actually qualified/unqualified to practice medicine. 

I agree, that most would be against that, but the moment you are against that you have completely removed any concept of competition from healthcare, and it is no longer a free-market based system.

The things you describe to "fix the system" with "boy's dreams" will have little to no effect on healthcare costs in the US.  High health costs are not caused by not allowing insurance to compete against state lines, or not taxing employer health care, nor by companies self insuring. 

The costs are due to health care being a NEED, and because of that if the costs rise, people just have to cut back everywhere else.  Demand is fixed and increasing because of an aging population.  Supply is fixed (and restricted from growth by limited residency positions).  That leads to rapidly increasing costs that are not going to be fixed by bandaids or allowing insurance sales across state lines.

B. McBannerson

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #381 on: July 15, 2017, 12:09:41 PM »





An article this week from Walter Williams, professor at George Mason.  Professor Williams argues raising the minimum wage is cruel.  Explains in detail the restaurant closings, the raising of prices that hurt the poor and impact to those that supposedly are to be helped by such a policy change.



http://www.richmond.com/opinion/their-opinion/walter-williams/walter-williams-column-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-cruel/article_be6c83c2-c4fa-5e72-92db-61196ba06b80.html


B. McBannerson

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #382 on: July 15, 2017, 12:13:58 PM »
St. Louis into the fray as their recent hike will be rolled back

http://www.businessinsider.com/ap-st-louis-businesses-pressured-to-keep-10-minimum-wage-2017-7

rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #383 on: July 15, 2017, 02:49:27 PM »




An article this week from Walter Williams, professor at George Mason.  Professor Williams argues raising the minimum wage is cruel.  Explains in detail the restaurant closings, the raising of prices that hurt the poor and impact to those that supposedly are to be helped by such a policy change.



http://www.richmond.com/opinion/their-opinion/walter-williams/walter-williams-column-raising-the-minimum-wage-is-cruel/article_be6c83c2-c4fa-5e72-92db-61196ba06b80.html

  many here just cannot grasp the fact that mandating a higher wage just doesn't work.  i understand it would be the "humane", "feel good" thing to do, but it's just another careful what you wish for action.  it's just not the way our market works.  besides, although i don't have any numbers on this,  i'm guessing very few businesses are able to pay "minimum wage" and maintain decent employees.  you get what you pay for.  by raising the minimum wage, everything else will soon follow(cost of goods, rent, etc) and we will be right back where we started.   
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jesmu84

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #384 on: July 15, 2017, 03:17:46 PM »
  many here just cannot grasp the fact that mandating a higher wage just doesn't work.  i understand it would be the "humane", "feel good" thing to do, but it's just another careful what you wish for action.  it's just not the way our market works.  besides, although i don't have any numbers on this,  i'm guessing very few businesses are able to pay "minimum wage" and maintain decent employees.  you get what you pay for.  by raising the minimum wage, everything else will soon follow(cost of goods, rent, etc) and we will be right back where we started.   

So what's your solution for decreasing income inequality? Or do you care?

MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #385 on: July 15, 2017, 03:36:56 PM »
Here's an editorial about Obamacare that was in today's Charlotte Observer:

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/opinion/editorials/article161423163.html?#emlnl=Afternoon_Newsletter

It roughly expresses my feelings about the situation. The key parts to me ...

A report out this week shows once again that despite what Republicans have claimed for months, the Affordable Care Act isn’t in a death spiral. It’s not collapsing. It’s not imploding. In fact, according to the Kaiser Foundation, Obamacare is stabilizing. Insurers earned more revenue per person on the exchanges last quarter than ever. Insurers are set to make profits on those exchanges in 2017 across the country.

But not all of the country. In some places, Obamacare has legitimately struggled, with insurers fleeing and leaving consumers with little or nothing to choose from on the ACA exchanges.

Those places have something in common, however: Almost all of them are in Republican states.

Let’s dig into Kaiser’s numbers a little more. According to the Foundation’s interactive map, in the 974 U.S. counties with only one insurer, only 23 are in states in which Democrats control the legislature.

The takeaway: In Republican-controlled states, where lawmakers have railed against the ACA and refused to expand Medicaid, consumers are largely facing fewer insurance options. In Democratic-controlled states, lawmakers have expanded Medicaid and worked to make Obamacare healthy. And it is, in those states.


That's why the few Republican governors who have agreed to expand Medicaid have refused to roll it back to the way it was: It is actually popular and working in their states, and they don't want to face the wrath of their constituents by taking it away from them.

The editorial goes on to say that, statistically, the poorest and sickest populations live in red states, so the legislators there consistently are hurting their own constituents.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 03:39:31 PM by MU82 »
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jesmu84

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #386 on: July 15, 2017, 06:17:12 PM »
The editorial goes on to say that, statistically, the poorest and sickest populations live in red states, so the legislators there consistently are hurting their own constituents.
And voters continue to vote against their own self-interest

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #387 on: July 15, 2017, 06:39:53 PM »
And voters continue to vote against their own self-interest

The right has historically been most successful when they convince poor and middle class white people to side with their race rather than with their socio-economic status.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #388 on: July 15, 2017, 06:47:56 PM »
So what's your solution for decreasing income inequality? Or do you care?

I'm not quite this aggressive about it, but I think this question is an important one. Like Rocket said, raising the minimum wage is the "humane/feel good" thing to do....but I also agree with him and others that it is not necessarily an effective way to do it. But the conversation always seems to stop there. Its about proving that something doesn't work rather than working to find out what does work. Same thing with healthcare. I'm not nearly educated enough on it to make a recommendation on health care, but I don't think its enough to say Obamacare doesn't work. I would rather have an inefficient plan that helps people than no plan at all. Then we can make improvements in the meantime.
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rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #389 on: July 15, 2017, 08:02:00 PM »
So what's your solution for decreasing income inequality? Or do you care?

yes i do care.  i just try to do my part and pay my employees well above minimum wage.

     my solution(s)-finish high school, don't drink and do drugs, stay out of jail, don't have kid(s) until you are ready for the responsibilities, get a job, go to job on time, listen, learn, more training/maybe a trade, college for a career, be a good person
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #390 on: July 15, 2017, 08:09:34 PM »
yes i do care.  i just try to do my part and pay my employees well above minimum wage.

     my solution(s)-finish high school, don't drink and do drugs, stay out of jail, don't have kid(s) until you are ready for the responsibilities, get a job, go to job on time, listen, learn, more training/maybe a trade, college for a career, be a good person

And we're back

TAMU

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rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #391 on: July 15, 2017, 09:06:06 PM »
And we're back



if i'm reading the gif right, me thinks you are saying i'm out of line or too "right wing" or...?  tell me, with all due respect, how my suggestions/solutions could fail to present someone with a chance to become successful.  these are just my opinions.  are they unrealistic?  just axk this guy-

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/devast8-face-tatoo-man-no-work-new-zealand-mark-cropp-drunk-brother-home-made-alcohol-prison-two-a7840356.html
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #392 on: July 15, 2017, 09:52:10 PM »
if i'm reading the gif right, me thinks you are saying i'm out of line or too "right wing" or...?  tell me, with all due respect, how my suggestions/solutions could fail to present someone with a chance to become successful.  these are just my opinions.  are they unrealistic?  just axk this guy-

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/devast8-face-tatoo-man-no-work-new-zealand-mark-cropp-drunk-brother-home-made-alcohol-prison-two-a7840356.html

Because we had a three page conversation earlier in this thread about how this:

     my solution(s)-finish high school, don't drink and do drugs, stay out of jail, don't have kid(s) until you are ready for the responsibilities, get a job, go to job on time, listen, learn, more training/maybe a trade, college for a career, be a good person

....is not how people end up in poverty. Top three reasons: 1. Born into it (well over 50 %) 2. Mental disability 3. Medical debt. All the things you listed are myths and stereotypes. They do happen but not nearly at the rates you are suggesting.

To focus on the drunk, addicted, and lazy poor is at best disingenuous and at worst a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise the impoverished. Treat the disease, not the symptoms.

Your response also seems to indicate that everyone is on their own. No one is deserving of any help. Its all on them.
TAMU

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #393 on: July 15, 2017, 10:02:04 PM »
if i'm reading the gif right, me thinks you are saying i'm out of line or too "right wing" or...?  tell me, with all due respect, how my suggestions/solutions could fail to present someone with a chance to become successful.  these are just my opinions.  are they unrealistic?  just axk this guy-

 http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/devast8-face-tatoo-man-no-work-new-zealand-mark-cropp-drunk-brother-home-made-alcohol-prison-two-a7840356.html

Thank you for acknowledging this. Someone born into poverty could do everything right. Work three jobs, find time to go to school, never touch a drop of alcohol, never have sex to avoid unplanned pregnancy, never miss a day of work, etc, never buy themselves something for fun, only make purchases absolutely necessary for life, be the perfect poor person by your standards.....And all they would get is a chance to escape poverty. Its only a chance because there are things beyond their control that keep them there.

You, I, and most of us here on this website got a huge head start over people in poverty just because of the families we were born into. If not for the conditions of our birth we could be in poverty right now....even if we were the exact same person that we are now. Why must we demand perfection of some and offer no help or grace, simply because we got a better break when we were born? Especially when we have so much more access to education than those born into poverty do.
TAMU

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Jockey

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #394 on: July 15, 2017, 11:16:55 PM »

You, I, and most of us here on this website got a huge head start over people in poverty just because of the families we were born into. If not for the conditions of our birth we could be in poverty right now....even if we were the exact same person that we are now. Why must we demand perfection of some and offer no help or grace, simply because we got a better break when we were born? Especially when we have so much more access to education than those born into poverty do.

Well said!!!!!

I never take my situation for granted. There was nothing that I did that caused me to be born into a good, caring family.  I realize how lucky I am.


rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #395 on: July 16, 2017, 12:13:54 AM »
So what's your solution for decreasing income inequality? Or do you care?

 i understand we had a conversation about that, but i was just answering jesmu's question honestly and imho of course
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:21:04 AM by rocket surgeon »
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rocket surgeon

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #396 on: July 16, 2017, 12:20:34 AM »
Thank you for acknowledging this. Someone born into poverty could do everything right. Work three jobs, find time to go to school, never touch a drop of alcohol, never have sex to avoid unplanned pregnancy, never miss a day of work, etc, never buy themselves something for fun, only make purchases absolutely necessary for life, be the perfect poor person by your standards.....And all they would get is a chance to escape poverty. Its only a chance because there are things beyond their control that keep them there.

You, I, and most of us here on this website got a huge head start over people in poverty just because of the families we were born into. If not for the conditions of our birth we could be in poverty right now....even if we were the exact same person that we are now. Why must we demand perfection of some and offer no help or grace, simply because we got a better break when we were born? Especially when we have so much more access to education than those born into poverty do.

we may have gotten a headstart or gotten lucky, but that aside, all those things i stated were also in place.  if it is utopia within and throughout all of our lives you are striving for, fugetaboutit.  follow my solutions and you would see more good than bad changes
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #397 on: July 16, 2017, 09:00:05 AM »
i understand we had a conversation about that, but i was just answering jesmu's question honestly and imho of course

Rocket, I don't know if you realize how your answer is coming off. When asked what you would do to help those in poverty your answer was "Nothing. The poor need to stop drinking, getting addicted, having unprotected sex, and being lazy." You used prettier words but that's what your answer was.
TAMU

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MU82

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #398 on: July 16, 2017, 11:21:36 AM »

....is not how people end up in poverty. Top three reasons: 1. Born into it (well over 50 %) 2. Mental disability 3. Medical debt. All the things you listed are myths and stereotypes. They do happen but not nearly at the rates you are suggesting.

Facts are not as attractive as alternate facts to the rockets of the world.
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Jay Bee

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Re: minimum wage hikes(follow-up)...not so good
« Reply #399 on: July 16, 2017, 12:04:40 PM »
Income inequality can be a great thing.

When a relatively poor person creates a business and has a great experience, makes lots of money and becomes wealthy... should we complain about how bad she is? Should we demand she takes some of her hard earned money and spread it to everyone else who did not take on the risk she did?

There are certain things that affect income inequality that can and should be addressed.. but lumping it together as one thing is goofy imo. 
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