Is this fair?

[forgetful]

It does, but it's just one of several advantages - both God-given and man-given - some athletes have over others.

Agreed.  I'm of the general stance that there are enough oddities and quirks of the concept of gender, and the  physical and psychological manifestations of gender, that there is no possible way to ensure "fairness."  No matter how they define gender for the sake of athletic competitions there will be people with what people here are calling an "unfair advantage."

The historic way of dealing with it was what their birth certificate said, which was largely based on anatomy...that doesn't necessarily always correlate with what we define as gender advantages for athletics, which means that people XY will be competing against women no matter how you define it; either XY and transitioning, or XY but born with female anatomy. 

Why don't we just call it mens and women competitions, and whatever one identifies with in terms of gender is which division they compete in....its not anymore unfair than any other methodology of defining gender and hurts the least amount of people. 

[Jay Bee]

^^ I'll go with the birth certificate method, thanks

Or else don't call it men's & women's

[GGGG]

^^ I'll go with the birth certificate method, thanks

Or else don't call it men's & women's

Depending upon the state, birth certificates may be amended.

[Lennys Tap]

Why don't we just call it mens and women competitions, and whatever one identifies with in terms of gender is which division they compete in....its not anymore unfair than any other methodology of defining gender and hurts the least amount of people.

Because on the scale of fairness it's one of the extremes.

[forgetful]

Because on the scale of fairness it's one of the extremes.

Is it though?  If we go by current rules, we have about 1:1500 that are intersex, but if we include a variety of other abnormalities that can affect gender identification it is 1:100, so 1%. 

About 0.2% are transgender, so 1:500.  Many of those people do not feel comfortable in sporting competitions, because of harassment/discrimination, so the actual number of people falls closer to the original 1:1500 for pure intersex. 

Their are extremely minor differences in terms of "fairness," and their really aren't any dramatic extremes.  Rather it is usually just perception and bias towards what one is more accustomed to.

[jutaw22mu]

Why don't we just call it mens and women competitions, and whatever one identifies with in terms of gender is which division they compete in....its not anymore unfair than any other methodology of defining gender and hurts the least amount of people.

Sorry, but this is ridiculous.  Whatever one is in terms of anatomy and sex is where they should compete. Not gender.

We might as well just cancel women's sports altogether if it is going to be coed.

[StillAWarrior]

I think "the trans people" are simply playing by the rules in front of them for the most part.  In this Connecticut case, the girl was participating within the rules.

I think that is true.  However, I can't help but wonder if this is a fairly recent change to the rules. 

Responding here only because I was responding anyway (i.e., the things that follow aren't in response to your post)...these are my general thoughts on the issues in the thread (as if anyone particularly cares):

• As I said in my first post, I tend to be kind of a "rules are rules" guy. There was no cheating here.  I've really got no problem with the kid in question.  I'm pretty sure I don't like the rule, but this has actually been a pretty good thread that offered a lot to think about.
• I'm not persuaded by the argument about how rare this is.  This is an extremely new issue that we are just beginning to confront as a society.  As mentioned above, I suspect that this was a fairly new rule. Just a very short while ago, this child who is biologically male would not have been allowed to compete against girls.  There simply was no thinking at all about gender identity.  Only recently have these rules started to be changed in some places, typically with disclaimers that these things will probably almost never happen.  Yet, they're happening with increasing frequency, and will likely happen more frequently in the future.  I'm not even remotely suggesting that it's an epidemic, but I think it's a bit disingenuous to argue that something almost never happens when it's only been allowed for a very short time and has already happened a handful of times.
• I will admit that I struggle with the rights of the many versus the rights of the few.  Upthread there was a false dichotomy presented that the option is to allow this biologically male athlete to compete against "girls" or to exclude her from competition.  There are other options.  Most notably, she can compete against the boys.  Some would argue that is unfair to her.  Perhaps that is true, and they may have a point.  Some argue that it is unfair to the other girls to allow her to compete with them.  Perhaps that is true, and they may have a point.  There is a very legitimate argument that it is unfair either way.  And there is clearly a difference of opinion as to which injustice is more compelling.
• It seems to me that some of the "those are the rules" people in this thread are making it pretty clear that they would not be nearly as supportive of the rule prevented this athlete from competing against the other girls.  That is an absolutely fair response to the question of whether this girl cheated -- she didn't.  But it's not a response to the underlying issue at all.  I suspect some of these same people would object to the opposite rule.  And for the record, I think that is a valid position for them to take.  Let's just not pretend that the position is based on respect for the rules.  The position is based on how you feel transgendered athletes should be treated, and that's a legitimate position to take.
• If it were my daughter competing against the transgendered athlete,
   I'd like to think that I'd be gracious.  I think I would.  It might be difficult, but I'd absolutely try.  And I would try to use it as an opportunity to teach my daughter to be open-minded and accepting...and she'd probably just roll her eyes at me and tell me it's no big deal.

[Pakuni]

I think that is true.  However, I can't help but wonder if this is a fairly recent change to the rules. 

FWIW, it's been the rule in Connecticut since Oct. 1, 2011.
If this is, as it appears, the first time there's been controversy since then, it's indicative of how truly rare these cases are (and likely will continue to be).

Otherwise, you raise many fair and valid questions.
I think there is a reasonable middle ground here, involving the requirement of proof of hormone therapy and/or testosterone suppression for male to female transitioning athletes. That already exists in some states, and is included in recent IOC guidelines for transgender athletes.

[Eldon]

Yesterday NPR had a podcast with John McEnroe about a Superbar topic.  Is McEnroe a Scooper?

On calling Serena Williams the best female tennis player in the world

Garcia-Navarro: We're talking about male players but there is of course wonderful female players. Let's talk about Serena Williams. You say she is the best female player in the world in the book.

McEnroe: Best female player ever — no question.

Garcia-Navarro: Some wouldn't qualify it, some would say she's the best player in the world. Why qualify it?

McEnroe: Oh! Uh, she's not, you mean, the best player in the world, period?

Garcia-Navarro: Yeah, the best tennis player in the world. You know, why say female player?

McEnroe: Well because if she was in, if she played the men's circuit she'd be like 700 in the world.

Garcia-Navarro: You think so?

McEnroe: Yeah. That doesn't mean I don't think Serena is an incredible player. I do, but the reality of what would happen would be I think something that perhaps it'd be a little higher, perhaps it'd be a little lower. And on a given day, Serena could beat some players. I believe because she's so incredibly strong mentally that she could overcome some situations where players would choke 'cause she's been in it so many times, so many situations at Wimbledon, The U.S. Open, etc. But if she had to just play the circuit — the men's circuit — that would be an entirely different story.

Garcia-Navarro: Many people over the years, including, we should mention Donald Trump, the President, wanted you to play her, and you seemed to have at least thought about it.

McEnroe: Well I've thought about it. I didn't really want to do it, personally. I don't know, people always seemed — I would say why don't they go ask Roger Federer? Or someone, you know they added the old fart that's you know 25 years over the hill. And I think I can still play and I think I could still — I mean my kids don't think I can beat her anymore. Maybe I should get her now because she's pregnant, but the truth is that I think that sometimes —I don't know why in tennis, I get it's that one battle of the sexes when Bobby Riggs played Billie Jean.

Garcia-Navarro: Billie Jean one of the most famous, iconic and most watched, I think tennis matches at the time.

McEnroe: Yeah, it was no question. I think there was the most, the biggest attendance at the Houston Astrodome, and it was great that Billie Jean did that but...OK, but that doesn't mean, talk about other sports. If you go look at the times, for example, of the world's fastest females — and you know maybe it will change! You know my daughter, one the things she says is 'You're a feminist, Dad.' OK. I started with two boys, I got four girls now and I'm all for it and I'm trying to just get with it and figure it out.

Garcia-Navarro: So, you're a feminist.

McEnroe: Maybe at some point a women's tennis player can be better than anybody. I just haven't seen it in any other sport, and I haven't seen it in tennis. I suppose anything's possible at some stage.

Garcia-Navarro: You really think at 60, you could possibly beat Serena Williams? Maybe pregnant.

McEnroe: The way you put that makes me think that you have your doubts.

Garcia-Navarro: Far be it from me to question you Mr. McEnroe.

McEnroe: Well, you know, my kids do, so feel free to. But there's people that because of course as you get older — I'm not sure how athletic you are and how often you get out in whatever sport it is, but I have kept at it regularly. I've done it sort of doing this playing some other guys close to my age even though they keep getting younger and younger. Obviously, if I was going to do something like that, I would train very seriously for that to make sure my body was at, like, the peak it could be. Absolutely — to try and be as ready as I possibly could, but I bring things to the table, certainly until recently. I may be way past it, but I can still bring a few things to the table and so that's why I guess people still find it interesting to even talk about.


http://www.npr.org/2017/06/25/534149646/but-seriously-tennis-great-john-mcenroe-says-hes-seeking-inner-peace

[Stronghold]

We had an opposite case in Texas.  An individual who was born female but identified as male was taking hormone injections to prepare for sex reassignment surgery. He was a wrestling athlete iirc and wanted to participate in the men's league.  The state refused so instead he dominated  the women's league because he basically had legal PEDs in his system. I wonder what people would have said if he was allowed to participate in the men's league.

This issue is what first came to my mind.  Allowing the use of PEDs in one group of people but not another.  How do you solve it, I don't know.

[#UnleashSean]

If were really going to allow this crap. I'm going to identify as a female for the sole purpose of absolutely raking in any sport I play. Hello WNBA and WORLD CUP WOMENS

[Galway Eagle]

If were really going to allow this crap. I'm going to identify as a female for the sole purpose of absolutely raking in any sport I play. Hello WNBA and WORLD CUP WOMENS

This quote epitomizes the idiotic cockiness that most men have. "I'm a guy who at best played varsity high school sports but because I'm a guy I could dominate the WNBA and World Cup Women's" you'd get destroyed in both and I'd pay to see it happen. Maybe some top college players could take out a WNBA team or women's FIFA team but not your sorry ass

[ATL MU Warrior]

This quote epitomizes the idiotic cockiness that most men have. "I'm a guy who at best played varsity high school sports but because I'm a guy I could dominate the WNBA and World Cup Women's" you'd get destroyed in both and I'd pay to see it happen. Maybe some top college players could take out a WNBA team or women's FIFA team but not your sorry ass

No. A collection of reasonably skilled dudes who played in high school could beat a WNBA team.  Top college players would beat them by a couple hundred points

[reinko]

If were really going to allow this crap. I'm going to identify as a female for the sole purpose of absolutely raking in any sport I play. Hello WNBA and WORLD CUP WOMENS

Read a book kid.  Transgender young people commit suicide, get bullied, drop out of school, get kicked out of their homes, and are victims of violence at astonishly higher rates than non-transgender young people.

So while your attempt is humor is noted, this type of language is unnecessary.

[GGGG]

If were really going to allow this crap. I'm going to identify as a female for the sole purpose of absolutely raking in any sport I play. Hello WNBA and WORLD CUP WOMENS

1. You still wouldn't be good enough.

2. You won't do it anyway.

[Galway Eagle]

No. A collection of reasonably skilled dudes who played in high school could beat a WNBA team.  Top college players would beat them by a couple hundred points

You sound like bobby Riggs did against Billie jean king. A group of reasonably skilled high school kids absolutely could not beat them. You're talking about a group that plays together for one season maybe 30 games and a few months of practices vs people who actually live to train and practice their sport, it's an idiotic argument you're making.

I think there's a huge undervaluing of what it means to be a professional athlete. I've sparred a few and they all blew me out of the water.  Granted that's man vs man but you're talking about people who don't go to work and then come home tired and half ass work out to stay in shape their work is training is practicing any beer gut fool who thinks they'd dominate them is an idiot

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If were really going to allow this crap. I'm going to identify as a female for the sole purpose of absolutely raking in any sport I play. Hello WNBA and WORLD CUP WOMENS

See everyone says this. Yet there hasn't been a single case of someone pretending to be transgender just to win at women's sports. Its a red herring at best and unbridled bigotry at its worst.

[Pakuni]

No. A collection of reasonably skilled dudes who played in high school could beat a WNBA team.  Top college players would beat them by a couple hundred points

These guys, some of whom played in college and now practice against WNBA teams, say you're wrong.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/xyjeek/you-will-get-beat-down-the-men-who-practice-with-the-wnba

[ATL MU Warrior]

You sound like bobby Riggs did against Billie jean king. A group of reasonably skilled high school kids absolutely could not beat them. You're talking about a group that plays together for one season maybe 30 games and a few months of practices vs people who actually live to train and practice their sport, it's an idiotic argument you're making.

I think there's a huge undervaluing of what it means to be a professional athlete. I've sparred a few and they all blew me out of the water.  Granted that's man vs man but you're talking about people who don't go to work and then come home tired and half ass work out to stay in shape their work is training is practicing any beer gut fool who thinks they'd dominate them is an idiot

I played on a team of has-beens and never-were's against the WNBA team when I lived in Miami.  Full court scrimmage in AA Arena. 

We clobbered them by 40 points.  There were a couple of guys who were on college teams...the rest of us were high school level.  Most of us had never played with each other before (nh -- as JB would say). 

This was longer ago than I care to admit, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it.

This isn't to say the women weren't very skilled...they were...way more skilled than most of the guys.  we were bigger, faster and stronger...end of story.

[ATL MU Warrior]

These guys, some of whom played in college and now practice against WNBA teams, say you're wrong.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/xyjeek/you-will-get-beat-down-the-men-who-practice-with-the-wnba

Maybe I am...wouldn't be the first time.

[Galway Eagle]

I played on a team of has-beens and never-were's against the WNBA team when I lived in Miami.  Full court scrimmage in AA Arena. 

We clobbered them by 40 points.  There were a couple of guys who were on college teams...the rest of us were high school level.  Most of us had never played with each other before (nh -- as JB would say). 

This was longer ago than I care to admit, so maybe things have changed, but I doubt it.

This isn't to say the women weren't very skilled...they were...way more skilled than most of the guys.  we were bigger, faster and stronger...end of story.

I don't presume to know how old you are but I'd say that things are different now.

Just for fun im gonna leave this here as well. Maybe girls aren't the danty little weaklings we make them out to be, maybe only practicing against girls has caused the cream to rise lower than it could.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/sports/soccer/girls-soccer-team-won-boys-league-spain.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

[forgetful]

These guys, some of whom played in college and now practice against WNBA teams, say you're wrong.

https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/xyjeek/you-will-get-beat-down-the-men-who-practice-with-the-wnba

Practicing against may not be the best metric, one team is organized, has plays etc., and the other side is just a bunch of guys.  I honestly can't speak to now, but a decade ago I was able to play in pickup games against a couple top WNBA players.  They were way better than I thought, but I, who hadn't played more than a pickup game in several years, could dominate them. 

Their strength was in shooting (lights out), but they couldn't guard me and couldn't get open against me if their life depended on it. 

The problem was simple.  I was 6'2" (barefoot), weighed 200 lbs, could bench press around 300, and had a 36" vertical.  I was a PG.  At that size I could play C in the WNBA, but had the speed/quickness and abilities of a PG. 

[#UnleashSean]

This quote epitomizes the idiotic cockiness that most men have. "I'm a guy who at best played varsity high school sports but because I'm a guy I could dominate the WNBA and World Cup Women's" you'd get destroyed in both and I'd pay to see it happen. Maybe some top college players could take out a WNBA team or women's FIFA team but not your sorry ass

Uhhh no?

A highschool team in Canada utterly annihilated the US women's team.

Edit: sorry I was wrong. It wasn't a Canadian varsity team. It was freshman in Dallas.

https://www.google.com/amp/usatodayhss.com/2017/the-fc-dallas-u-15-academy-team-beat-the-u-s-women-s-national-team-5-2/amp


This one's against the u17 national team

http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/uswnt-vs-u-17-usmnt.1939180/

And here's one for the aussies.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/6072/australias-national-womens-soccer-team-lose-7-0-amanda-prestigiacomo

Added on to those here's a small antedote I have.

My brother played baseball at rock valley last year. They have the number 2 best juco women's team for basketball. (don't know if they won the tournament that year)
They played the men's baseball team on basketball scrimmages.

The boys were not allowed to bring anyone over 6 foot. Only one of them had played varsity basketball. And rode the bench. My brother at 5'10 played center with a 5 inch vertical against a 6'4 girl. These guys had no plays no set defense and never played basketball. They routinely beat them by 20 points.

I see a lot of arguments about how people have inherent advantages against one another and it should be fair he's allowed to play vs girls. But a very large majority of all men have a big advantage against mostly every women. Even those at the top of their class. 

[MerrittsMustache]

I don't presume to know how old you are but I'd say that things are different now.

Just for fun im gonna leave this here as well. Maybe girls aren't the danty little weaklings we make them out to be, maybe only practicing against girls has caused the cream to rise lower than it could.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/sports/soccer/girls-soccer-team-won-boys-league-spain.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

First of all, that article is awesome!

Second, comparing youth soccer players to professional basketball players is far from a logical comparison. For a sport like basketball, size and strength matter SO much more than it does in soccer.

[#UnleashSean]

First of all, that article is awesome!

Second, comparing youth soccer players to professional basketball players is far from a logical comparison. For a sport like basketball, size and strength matter SO much more than it does in soccer.

I also read the article but am fairly sceptical. I don't know enough about Spain and their soccer leagues. I wonder if they have different skill level leagues like we do for youth baseball. Such as a c b and a division.

The article doesn't state any of this at all. And I don't feel like diving into a Spanish youth soccer website to find out. But they could have easily picked the lowest boys league and played against a bunch of kids running in circles and picking dandelion.

 Remember they are 12 not 18. They could be playing in a league where the parents drop them off for 2 hours of day care.