Is this fair?

[rocket surgeon]

By the rules she is not a "dude."

And what would she had done if she had lost?  Hopefully showed gracious sportsmanship in defeat.

You make it sound like this was all set up so she could win a few races.

   "make it sound"  so you're a mind reader now?  i actually don't care who won, by how much or whatever.  what i'm saying is-when is a dude a girl and vice versa??  i suggest that they are actually taking the hormone replacement therapy drugs at least.  otherwise all ya got here is someone(a dude) saying i'm a girl, where's the starting line, let's race!  i'm mean where's the proof?  shouldn't there be some kind of documentation?  little leaguers need proof of age, tsa wants proof of knee, hip replacements going thru metal detectors, etc

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

   "make it sound"  so you're a mind reader now?  i actually don't care who won, by how much or whatever.  what i'm saying is-when is a dude a girl and vice versa??  i suggest that they are actually taking the hormone replacement therapy drugs at least.  otherwise all ya got here is someone(a dude) saying i'm a girl, where's the starting line, let's race!  i'm mean where's the proof?  shouldn't there be some kind of documentation?  little leaguers need proof of age, tsa wants proof of knee, hip replacements going thru metal detectors, etc

As the article states, most states do have requirements for proof of gender. Also, to my knowledge, there has never been a case where "a dude" said "I'm a girl" and then after the race said "just kidding, I'm a boy again." Do you know any cisgendered men who would lie and claim to be trans-gendered so they could win at a women's sporting event? The next one I meet will be the first.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Bro, as dominant as Brittany Griner was, she wouldn't even sniff the 14th spot on the worst D-League roster.

To be honest, I don't watch much of the NBA and none of the WNBA. I have no idea how many if any WNBA players are good enough to make a roster in the NBA. Definitely not Griner. I was think more end of the bench 3 point sharpshooter type role players.

[Jockey]

I am not missing the point, I understand that.  I offered no opinion, just a thought exercise.  Once you start ignoring biology when determining gender, then it seems to me the downstream effect for sports may be to eliminate gender as a differentiating factor.  I am not advocating such a change, just wondering if that is where we're headed and what other people think.

I wasn't trying to argue with you. I certainly am not ignoring biology. In fact, that was the point of my post. It is almost completely biological.

Studies have been done on transgender people and their brain anatomy. These aren't just random decisions these people are making to identify as the opposite sex. It is inspired by the biological makeup of their brains.

[Pakuni]

Do you know any cisgendered men who would lie and claim to be trans-gendered so they could win at a women's sporting event? The next one I meet will be the first.

I imagine it's roughly the same number as those who do it just so they could go pee in the women's restroom.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Agree 100%.  Think about if someone like Ryan Amoroso was allowed to play in the WNBA.  He would dominate Brittany Griener.  Stronger, quicker, more athletic, better in every area of the game.  No NBA team was clamoring for him.

Which brings me to a larger point.  Why do we separate men and women in sport?  Isn't it because it is understood that men in general are naturally larger and stronger than women, and thus have an unfair advantage in many sports where size and strength are important elements? But might not this gender identification issue the first step toward the end game of eliminating separate sports teams based on gender?  Probably a long ways down the line, but maybe inevitable?  Taking our PC culture to its natural endgame, aren't accounting for differences like naturally superior size and strength discrimination?  Once someone can say that despite having those natural advantages they identify as a woman and we say that is OK, aren't we moving in that direction? 

In our culture, we are expected to see all people as naturally equal.  At the tennis majors, for example, the women insist on equal pay since they do equal work.  But is it equal work?  Forget for a moment that they play the best 2 out of 3 sets vs. 3 out of 5 for the men, that is a different discussion.  True equality would mean that there is one tournament open to everybody and the best 128 play in it, regardless of sex.  Probably 127 men and Serena Williams.  Same for college sports and Title IX.  If we want true equality, that means there is one basketball team open to all, one volleyball team, etc.

In many sports that would kill women's participation (although I suspect it would spur an exponential improvement in the best women athletes, as better competition spurs improvement), so we intuitively understand it is a bad thing, but in slow increments, I think we are moving in that general direction.

I don't think Ryan Amoroso could dominate Brittany Griner. Could be wrong but I don't think that's right. I agree that in general men are bigger and stronger than women though I wonder how many assumptions we make based on gender. Without actually combining men's and women's sports, we don't actually know how it would go.

The rest of the post is interesting to think about. I wandered down the same thought process in my original post. I don't think its a realistic scenario because others point out, less than .05% of the population is transgendered. I have no how many of that less than half a percent will ever play athletics at a high level, but I can't imagine its many. I don't think sports as we know it will be changed for that few of people.

You also brought up the idea of equality. I agree that true equality would be having sports integrated and just picking people based on merit. But equality isn't equal. Equity is what needs to be striven for. Recognizing that not everyone is created equal and creating systems to help compensate for that. That's why I think women's leagues are important, but it's still not equitable? How to make it so? No idea.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I imagine it's roughly the same number as those who do it just so they could go pee in the women's restroom.

Yep. Never got that one. There are stalls in women's restrooms for chrissakes. If someone is standing on the toliet peeping on a woman in the next stall, you are going to notice. And that person will be arrested whether or not transgendered women are allowed to use the bathroom or not.

[Jay Bee]

I wasn't trying to argue with you. I certainly am not ignoring biology. In fact, that was the point of my post. It is almost completely biological.

Studies have been done on transgender people and their brain anatomy. These aren't just random decisions these people are making to identify as the opposite sex. It is inspired by the biological makeup of their brains.

No. Some simply choose to be transgender.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No. Some simply choose to be transgender.

Who?

[Jay Bee]

Who?

Some people do. It's a fact and you should know better. People do odd things.

You honestly believe 100% of transgender people were compelled by their genetic make-up?

[rocket surgeon]

As the article states, most states do have requirements for proof of gender. Also, to my knowledge, there has never been a case where "a dude" said "I'm a girl" and then after the race said "just kidding, I'm a boy again." Do you know any cisgendered men who would lie and claim to be trans-gendered so they could win at a women's sporting event? The next one I meet will be the first.

tamu, you are still missing my point and i apologize if i'm not being clear, but, i'm not trying to say someone is trying to hoodwink the system to win a race or contest or position on a team...as far as no one having reported a case where a dude said i'm a girl and then after the competition, switched back-haven't heard of that scenario...yet.  understand, this is fairly new territory we are exploring here.  i had never heard of someone trying to iron their shirt while it was on either...wait...yes i have, but that's a whole different story. 

if one is going to identify as a guy or a girl, they should at least be one of "them" pharmaceutically if not both pharmaceutically and physically.  i know this is going to be controversial, but do we need to have a transgender take some kind of documentation to have their identity verified and officially changed on their i.d.?  think about it-get pulled over for speeding and ya pull out your drivers license and, well you know the rest

[Lennys Tap]

To be honest, I don't watch much of the NBA and none of the WNBA. I have no idea how many if any WNBA players are good enough to make a roster in the NBA. Definitely not Griner. I was think more end of the bench 3 point sharpshooter type role players.

The idea that any WNBA player could make an NBA team may be the most ludicrous ever submitted on Scoop. Those ladies are special athletes but nohow, no way. Have you ever seen an NBA game? You're kidding, right?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Some people do. It's a fact and you should know better. People do odd things.

You honestly believe 100% of transgender people were compelled by their genetic make-up?

I never said anything of the sort. I'm asking you to give an example or cite a source since its a fact.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The idea that any WNBA player could make an NBA team may be the most ludicrous ever submitted on Scoop. Those ladies are special athletes but nohow, no way. Have you ever seen an NBA game? You're kidding, right?

Most ludicrous thing posted on scoop? Are you new here? Steve Novak was in the NBA for 11 years as player who's only ability to was to make three point shots. I have no idea how many, but I'm sure there are some who could be the last player on the bench as a sharpshooting specialist for an NBA team. And if there aren't currently any, it is theoretically possible.

The fact that people think its so impossible for a woman to compete in the NBA actually goes to prove the point I was making. Integrating the sports would result in less opportunities for women in sports.

[B. McBannerson]

http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html

This is not politics. This is real life. Trying to help one person places another at a distinct disadvantage.

No, not fair.  This is about competition. Those young ladies that trained hard, sacrificed, entered a GIRLS competition  - no sympathy for them apparently.  It's a competition, which should be about XX and XY chromosomes.  This isn't about how someone identifies, it is 100% physiology. 

If we're going to use how someone chooses to identify, than why can't a 15 year old boy identify as a 12 year old boy and play at that level?  If birth certificates don't matter any longer for gender, how can they legally mean anything for age either?  It's all about how one identifies?

Do not understand the Lebon comparison. Lebron is a male, you are a male. He got a better roll of the dice for body type for now (he may die at age 39 and you may live to age 99).  That's completely different than this example.

Feel badly for those young ladies who did it right.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

if one is going to identify as a guy or a girl, they should at least be one of "them" pharmaceutically if not both pharmaceutically and physically.

For sports, I understand the argument. For everything else, I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone what their gender identity is. If someone identifies as transgender but hasn't gotten the surgery or hormone treatments that's their business.

if one is going to identify as a guy or a girl, they should at least be one of "them" pharmaceutically if not both pharmaceutically and physically.  i know this is going to be controversial, but do we need to have a transgender take some kind of documentation to have their identity verified and officially changed on their i.d.?  think about it-get pulled over for speeding and ya pull out your drivers license and, well you know the rest

They do change their ID (provided the state allows it). If someone is born male but identifies as female their driver's license will say female. Unless you are saying their driver's license should say transgender. In that case I would ask, why would anyone who sees a drivers license need to know that information?

[B. McBannerson]

The idea that any WNBA player could make an NBA team may be the most ludicrous ever submitted on Scoop. Those ladies are special athletes but nohow, no way. Have you ever seen an NBA game? You're kidding, right?

I remember Ann Meiers (Meyers) giving it a go for the Pacers.  In agreement with you, isn't likely to happen in our lifetimes.  Not unless someone self identifies.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

No, not fair.  This is about competition. Those young ladies that trained hard, sacrificed, entered a GIRLS competition  - no sympathy for them apparently.  It's a competition, which should be about XX and XY chromosomes.  This isn't about how someone identifies, it is 100% physiology. 

If we're going to use how someone chooses to identify, than why can't a 15 year old boy identify as a 12 year old boy and play at that level?  If birth certificates don't matter any longer for gender, how can they legally mean anything for age either?  It's all about how one identifies?

Do not understand the Lebon comparison. Lebron is a male, you are a male. He got a better roll of the dice for body type for now (he may die at age 39 and you may live to age 99).  That's completely different than this example.

Feel badly for those young ladies who did it right.

Age identity is not a thing. Gender identity is. Gender and sex are two different things. The question in this case is whether someone's gender or someone's sex be used when deciding where they compete. Some states (like CT) use gender. Some states us sex. Some states (like TX) use sex assigned at birth (even if you've gone under the knife you aren't allowed to compete with the gender you identify with). I honestly don't know which is right. I see both sides of the argument.

[Jay Bee]

a broad is a broad, a guy is a guy, ainal? Reasonable differential to me. Wide range... you got femmies like ZFB that have the strength of a demented broke broad.. but he still kind of a guy...

Guy = guy,

broad = broad

simple

[Lennys Tap]

Most ludicrous thing posted on scoop? Are you new here? Steve Novak was in the NBA for 11 years as player who's only ability to was to make three point shots. I have no idea how many, but I'm sure there are some who could be the last player on the bench as a sharpshooting specialist for an NBA team. And if there aren't currently any, it is theoretically possible.

The fact that people think its so impossible for a woman to compete in the NBA actually goes to prove the point I was making. Integrating the sports would result in less opportunities for women in sports.

You started with 12, moved to "some", then say it is at least theoretically possible. Of course, anything is theoretically possible - a 5 year old could win the 100 meter dash at the Olympics. But 12 or "some" is crazy - among the craziest things I've ever read on a sport's board. Integrating professional sports (by gender) wouldn't "result in less opportunities for women" - it would eliminate women from professional sports period.

Before you accuse me of being a knuckle dragger, a couple of things: I have two daughters and two sons and coached them all in youth sports. My wife and I are both extremely happy that our daughters had opportunities never afforded my wife and the young women of her generation. Sport's participation is important and good for ALL. But until you find a way to mess with Mother Nature, post puberty elite female athletes can't compete with post puberty male athletes.

Oh, and by the way, Steve Novak was 6'10" - and while he wasn't much of an athlete by NBA or men's college basketball standards in the WNBA he'd be LeBron squared.

[naginiF]

a broad is a broad, a guy is a guy, rightl? Reasonable differential to me. Wide range... you got femmies like ZFB that have the strength of a demented broke broad.. but he still kind of a guy...

Guy = guy,

broad = broad

simple

as unbelievably dickishly condescending as you are about all things recruiting, at least you back that up by being knowledgeable and being able to cite facts.

on this subject you only add 'woefully ignorant' to being dickishly condescending.  either cite facts or explicit personal experience - anything else is simply showing that you are afraid of something you don't understand.

[rocket surgeon]

For sports, I understand the argument. For everything else, I don't think anyone has the right to tell someone what their gender identity is. If someone identifies as transgender but hasn't gotten the surgery or hormone treatments that's their business.

They do change their ID (provided the state allows it). If someone is born male but identifies as female their driver's license will say female. Unless you are saying their driver's license should say transgender. In that case I would ask, why would anyone who sees a drivers license need to know that information?

wait a second, now i'm struggling-if someone is born a male, but i.d.'s as a female, the license says female?  but they aren't a female. you aren't what you think you are or want to be.  just ask rachel dolezal how that's working out for her. what if they think they are a dog?  does that mean they are a dog? 

   review:  XX chromsomes=female
                XY=male

    i don't care how hard you want to try, but i haven't heard of any surgery that will change this

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

wait a second, now i'm struggling-if someone is born a male, but i.d.'s as a female, the license says female?  but they aren't a female. you aren't what you think you are or want to be.  just ask rachel dolezal how that's working out for her. what if they think they are a dog?  does that mean they are a dog? 

   review:  XX chromsomes=female
                XY=male

    i don't care how hard you want to try, but i haven't heard of any surgery that will change this

Depending on the state they will change the driver's license if they go through sex reassignment surgery. I'm not sure if any change it based on gender identity without the surgery.

I don't know what someone who thinks they are dog has to do with anything. That person is mentally ill. Everyone has both a gender and a sex. Most people its the same. For some people, its different.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You started with 12, moved to "some", then say it is at least theoretically possible. Of course, anything is theoretically possible - a 5 year old could win the 100 meter dash at the Olympics. But 12 or "some" is crazy - among the craziest things I've ever read on a sport's board. Integrating professional sports (by gender) wouldn't "result in less opportunities for women" - it would eliminate women from professional sports period.

Before you accuse me of being a knuckle dragger, a couple of things: I have two daughters and two sons and coached them all in youth sports. My wife and I are both extremely happy that our daughters had opportunities never afforded my wife and the young women of her generation. Sport's participation is important and good for ALL. But until you find a way to mess with Mother Nature, post puberty elite female athletes can't compete with post puberty male athletes.

Oh, and by the way, Steve Novak was 6'10" - and while he wasn't much of an athlete by NBA or men's college basketball standards in the WNBA he'd be LeBron squared.

Easy Lenny, I don't know why you would think I would call you a knuckle dragger. We are on the same side of the argument so If I think you're a knuckle dragger, than I must think of myself as one too.

I said "maybe a dozen" as an off the top of my head guess without even thinking about it. "Maybe" meaning 12 as the absolute max with the more likely possibility of 0-11. I have no idea what the number would be. To be honest, it doesn't matter because it wasn't the point I was making.

We agree on the larger point, integration would hurt women's sports. I don't know that I agree that it would completely eliminate them. I think there is a possibility that there are women who could compete in several sports with men. But they would be the massive minority, effectively eliminating women from the ranks of professional sports.

[naginiF]

wait a second, now i'm struggling-if someone is born a male, but i.d.'s as a female, the license says female?  but they aren't a female. you aren't what you think you are or want to be.  just ask rachel dolezal how that's working out for her. what if they think they are a dog?  does that mean they are a dog? 

   review:  XX chromsomes=female
                XY=male

    i don't care how hard you want to try, but i haven't heard of any surgery that will change this

In all honesty i'm 99% sure i'd have the exact perspective as you if i didn't know a transgender person.  i've told this story here before but my 8yr old is in the same class as a transgender girl. having known her and her family for the last 5 years means watching them realize, identify, struggle with, accept, and educate the rest of us on what being transgender is and what it isn't.  It isn't biological or physical - that's your physical sex not your gender. 

If you don't know a transgender person i implore you to do so before drawing hard biological lines.  Or, until you do, at least be open to the possibility that this isn't a mental illness or scam.