collapse

* Recent Posts

NCSTATE is evil by PGsHeroes32
[Today at 10:31:48 AM]


Where is Marquette? by Scoop Snoop
[Today at 10:10:34 AM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Uncle Rico
[Today at 10:02:17 AM]


Are we still recruiting anyone for the 24-25 season. by tower912
[Today at 09:58:46 AM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by Viper
[Today at 09:52:10 AM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by MU Fan in Connecticut
[Today at 09:25:35 AM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by MarquetteDano
[Today at 09:22:06 AM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Is this fair?  (Read 40053 times)

muwarrior69

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
Is this fair?
« on: June 08, 2017, 08:09:48 AM »
http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html

This is not politics. This is real life. Trying to help one person places another at a distinct disadvantage.

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2017, 08:30:46 AM »
No, it's not fair...but that's how it goes sometimes.


mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5049
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2017, 09:46:12 AM »
Who ever promised you fair?

And quite frankly, as we are navigating this turbulent time for this particular issue, I think it's good that the discussion is around all students impacted and how do we navigate it. Yes, supporting transgender has impacts to other individuals that can be viewed as positive or negative that should be discussed. I'm heartened to see the discuss within this article is not about the rights of transgender but how we balance individual rights against each other.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9878
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2017, 10:43:14 AM »
Is it fair that LeBron James grew to be a 6'8", 250, with otherworldy athletic traits, and I grew to be  5'10", 160, and unable to touch the rim?

Fair is relative.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2017, 10:52:51 AM »
I wish it was a simple answer.  I think it is fair in the sense that no athlete is created equal. Was it fair to Dwight Howards high school opponents that he was a 7 foot man child by age 16?

However,  I don't think that's much of leap to then question why men's and women's sports should be separated at all. In a perfect world I don't think they should be.  But the reality is that opportunities for women to play at a high level would all but disappear.  I don't think theres anything about the sport of basketball (for example)  that says that women can't compete with men. But if they got rid of the WNBA and let women play in the NBA, maybe a dozen women would get added to a rosters. Whether because of actual difference in athletic ability or made up difference from discrimination. Integration may actually do more damage to women's sports as a whole.

We had an opposite case in Texas.  An individual who was born female but identified as male was taking hormone injections to prepare for sex reassignment surgery. He was a wrestling athlete iirc and wanted to participate in the men's league.  The state refused so instead he dominated  the women's league because he basically had legal PEDs in his system. I wonder what people would have said if he was allowed to participate in the men's league.

I did appreciate the article.  Thought they took a thoughtful approach without taking a side in a hot button issue
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2017, 10:56:44 AM »
http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html

This is not politics. This is real life. Trying to help one person places another at a distinct disadvantage.

"But what about a high school girl who simply wonders exactly what is an equal playing field on a track in New Britain?

What do we tell these girls?

A transgender girl's journey is more important than your journey?"


Ugh.  How about we tell her this:  "The rules allow her to compete.  Try your best.  If you don't win, be a good sport.  Life will go on."


rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • NA of course
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »
I wish it was a simple answer.  I think it is fair in the sense that no athlete is created equal. Was it fair to Dwight Howards high school opponents that he was a 7 foot man child by age 16?

However,  I don't think that's much of leap to then question why men's and women's sports should be separated at all. In a perfect world I don't think they should be.  But the reality is that opportunities for women to play at a high level would all but disappear.  I don't think theres anything about the sport of basketball (for example)  that says that women can't compete with men. But if they got rid of the WNBA and let women play in the NBA, maybe a dozen women would get added to a rosters. Whether because of actual difference in athletic ability or made up difference from discrimination. Integration may actually do more damage to women's sports as a whole.

We had an opposite case in Texas.  An individual who was born female but identified as male was taking hormone injections to prepare for sex reassignment surgery. He was a wrestling athlete iirc and wanted to participate in the men's league.  The state refused so instead he dominated  the women's league because he basically had legal PEDs in his system. I wonder what people would have said if he was allowed to participate in the men's league.

I did appreciate the article.  Thought they took a thoughtful approach without taking a side in a hot button issue

  but this athlete had not yet started taking hormone replacement therapy, so essentially, "she" was still a he.  no, it's not fair.  until he  at least begins the hormone replacement therapy(HRT), he should compete as a dude.  this is essentially a guy blowing away the girls in competition-with some exceptions, ohhh!  what a surprise.  i'm unclear on how/if the HRT will affect a persons athletic performance, but let's at least agree that if one is to compete as a transgender, they are a little closer to representing that gender from a biological standpoint.

"Yearwood, who has yet to undergo any hormonal treatment on the long process toward sex reassignment surgery, sprinted faster than anyone else for two state class titles."


the dad goes on to say that he cares most about his daughters happiness and that she is able to compete-nice,  what about all the others?   someone remind him about the no "I" in team thingy

don't...don't don't don't don't

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9026
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2017, 01:21:49 PM »
I find it ridiculous, but whatever rules people want to set, go for it. Just wish they'd be more forthcoming about it.

Don't call your sports "girls" and "boys".  Call them "if you feel like you're a girl" and "if your mind is telling you you're a dude" leagues.

Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2017, 01:23:08 PM »
Rocket, I don't see being born male as any more unfair of an advantage in track  as a basketball player who is 7 feet tall at age 16. Both are natural athletic advantages they have over other competitors. Are you telling Dwight Howards dad that he should think about the feelings of all the 6 foot nothing basketball players that Howard destroyed in high school?
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Silkk the Shaka

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5376
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2017, 01:31:18 PM »
Is it fair that LeBron James grew to be a 6'8", 250, with otherworldy athletic traits, and I grew to be  5'10", 160, and unable to touch the rim?

Fair is relative.

Just play a 1-on-1 game against Chicos and you'll feel like Shaq

Eldon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2945
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 02:10:46 PM »
I wish it was a simple answer.  I think it is fair in the sense that no athlete is created equal. Was it fair to Dwight Howards high school opponents that he was a 7 foot man child by age 16?

However,  I don't think that's much of leap to then question why men's and women's sports should be separated at all. In a perfect world I don't think they should be.  But the reality is that opportunities for women to play at a high level would all but disappear.  I don't think theres anything about the sport of basketball (for example)  that says that women can't compete with men. But if they got rid of the WNBA and let women play in the NBA, maybe a dozen women would get added to a rosters. Whether because of actual difference in athletic ability or made up difference from discrimination. Integration may actually do more damage to women's sports as a whole.

We had an opposite case in Texas.  An individual who was born female but identified as male was taking hormone injections to prepare for sex reassignment surgery. He was a wrestling athlete iirc and wanted to participate in the men's league.  The state refused so instead he dominated  the women's league because he basically had legal PEDs in his system. I wonder what people would have said if he was allowed to participate in the men's league.

I did appreciate the article.  Thought they took a thoughtful approach without taking a side in a hot button issue



Several years ago, [Phil] Jackson conducted his own girls vs. boys experiment during one of his basketball camps and the results were startling to him.

Back then, high school boys in Montana were not allowed to participate in sports camps after mid-July because of football conditioning, so the only boys that signed up for Jackson’s youth camp were junior high kids, along with high school-age girls. Among the girls was a Class B state championship team.

For fun, Jackson pitted the high school championship girls team against a group of junior high boys who had never played together in the final game of the camp.

“The girls were all 4 to 6 inches bigger than the boys and they (girls) still got beat by 40 points,” Jackson said. “That opened my eyes to the differences. Because even though the girls had the skill and knowledge, these boys … just pressed and trapped and did things that changed the game and gave them the energy.”


http://www.ocregister.com/2009/12/06/women-in-the-nba-dont-think-so-jackson-says/

Bro, as dominant as Brittany Griner was, she wouldn't even sniff the 14th spot on the worst D-League roster.

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 02:23:17 PM »
Rocket, I don't see being born male as any more unfair of an advantage in track  as a basketball player who is 7 feet tall at age 16. Both are natural athletic advantages they have over other competitors. Are you telling Dwight Howards dad that he should think about the feelings of all the 6 foot nothing basketball players that Howard destroyed in high school?

The rules allow athletes to compete against the gender that they identify with. The other competitors might not think it's fair but they just have to deal with it. No one should ever expect another competitor to apologize for playing within the rules.

That said, your analogy is not at all apples to apples. If Dwight Howard identified with being 5'11" and, as a result, got to play in a 6'0" and under league, then it would be a closer comparison. Or if a 189-pound HS wrestler identified with being 133 pounds so he wrestled in the 133-pound weight class, that would be similar. There's a reason why boys and girls sports are separate. There's a reason why weight classes exist in sports like wrestling and boxing. There's a reason why youth football leagues often have a weight limit for players. This case is a bit tricky, but at the end of the day, it's probably not "fair" for her to be able to compete but the rules were followed. Deal with it, other athletes.


tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23365
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2017, 02:28:27 PM »
When my daughter was in 6th grade, she and her teammates scrimmaged their male classmates at the end of the season and beat them by double digits.  It was have been different a year later, but the girls were smart enough to not give a rematch.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

CTWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2017, 02:28:43 PM »
Bro, as dominant as Brittany Griner was, she wouldn't even sniff the 14th spot on the worst D-League roster.

Agree 100%.  Think about if someone like Ryan Amoroso was allowed to play in the WNBA.  He would dominate Brittany Griener.  Stronger, quicker, more athletic, better in every area of the game.  No NBA team was clamoring for him.

Which brings me to a larger point.  Why do we separate men and women in sport?  Isn't it because it is understood that men in general are naturally larger and stronger than women, and thus have an unfair advantage in many sports where size and strength are important elements? But might not this gender identification issue the first step toward the end game of eliminating separate sports teams based on gender?  Probably a long ways down the line, but maybe inevitable?  Taking our PC culture to its natural endgame, aren't accounting for differences like naturally superior size and strength discrimination?  Once someone can say that despite having those natural advantages they identify as a woman and we say that is OK, aren't we moving in that direction? 

In our culture, we are expected to see all people as naturally equal.  At the tennis majors, for example, the women insist on equal pay since they do equal work.  But is it equal work?  Forget for a moment that they play the best 2 out of 3 sets vs. 3 out of 5 for the men, that is a different discussion.  True equality would mean that there is one tournament open to everybody and the best 128 play in it, regardless of sex.  Probably 127 men and Serena Williams.  Same for college sports and Title IX.  If we want true equality, that means there is one basketball team open to all, one volleyball team, etc.

In many sports that would kill women's participation (although I suspect it would spur an exponential improvement in the best women athletes, as better competition spurs improvement), so we intuitively understand it is a bad thing, but in slow increments, I think we are moving in that general direction.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 02:31:21 PM by CTWarrior »
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3660
  • NA of course
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2017, 02:28:58 PM »
Rocket, I don't see being born male as any more unfair of an advantage in track  as a basketball player who is 7 feet tall at age 16. Both are natural athletic advantages they have over other competitors. Are you telling Dwight Howards dad that he should think about the feelings of all the 6 foot nothing basketball players that Howard destroyed in high school?

i don't believe it's about "feelings" as much as it is "fairness".  this is a dude competing against girls.  ok, let's flip it-maybe the dude is lucky he wasn't beaten by a bunch of girls.  which brings up another question that wasn't asked-how would the dad or the dude have reacted if his child got his arse kicked?  and, you are using a measurable physical attribute(height) as opposed to what's between the legs. if one feels they aren't being put into a "fair" situation, i guess it can then become an emotional issue as well

ok, to address your thoughts on advantage/disadvantage in track-well, that's all fine and good, but where is the line drawn?  also, i haven't seen any studies regarding the parity of male/female performances within specific sports.  i.e. track vs. all the rest or age levels at which a disparity may become significant. 

i should have clarified-"where is the line drawn" i mean, which sports?  track is ok but not basketball or any of the others for that matter?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 04:02:52 PM by rocket surgeon »
don't...don't don't don't don't

Jockey

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • “We want to get rid of the ballots"
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2017, 02:29:04 PM »


Bro, as dominant as Brittany Griner was, she wouldn't even sniff the 14th spot on the worst D-League roster.

Serena Williams is the greatest women's tennis player ever - by a large margin. She is also the strongest women's player ever.

If she played the 100th ranked male, she would get annihilated.


Jockey

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2016
  • “We want to get rid of the ballots"
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2017, 02:32:35 PM »


Which brings me to a larger point.  Why do we separate men and women in sport?  Isn't it because it is understood that men in general are naturally larger and stronger than women, and thus have an unfair advantage in many sports where size and strength are important elements? But might not this gender identification issue the first step toward the end game of eliminating separate sports teams based on gender?  Probably a long ways down the line, but maybe inevitable?  Taking our PC culture to its natural endgame, aren't accounting for differences like naturally superior size and strength discrimination?  Once someone can say that despite having those natural advantages they identify as a woman and we say that is OK, aren't we moving in that direction? 



I think you may be missing the larger point.

They are not identifying as women because they want to gain an advantage in a sports event. They are doing it because that is who they are.

Eldon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2945
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2017, 02:33:25 PM »
http://www.courant.com/sports/hc-jacobs-column-yearwood-transgender-0531-20170530-column.html

This is not politics. This is real life. Trying to help one person places another at a distinct disadvantage.

That is exactly where the political process comes in, to settle these types of issues. 

If you are a runner, nobody is forcing you to compete.  Stay home if you truly feel it's unfair (or don't go into sprinting in the first place).  I think a powerful form of protest would be to show up to the race, line up, and when the gun fires stand up and watch, thereby essentially forfeiting the race.

CTWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2017, 02:56:06 PM »
I think you may be missing the larger point.

They are not identifying as women because they want to gain an advantage in a sports event. They are doing it because that is who they are.

I am not missing the point, I understand that.  I offered no opinion, just a thought exercise.  Once you start ignoring biology when determining gender, then it seems to me the downstream effect for sports may be to eliminate gender as a differentiating factor.  I am not advocating such a change, just wondering if that is where we're headed and what other people think.
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

Badgerhater

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 979
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2017, 03:15:54 PM »
The new military policy is that the servicemember complies with the uniform and physical fitness standards of their original gender until a medical review board states that the medically prescribed conversion protocol for that individual is complete.  Then, the gender is changed in their official record.

Sounds like a reasonable standard that would weed parts of this issue.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 03:40:36 PM by Badgerhater »

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2017, 03:39:11 PM »
I am not missing the point, I understand that.  I offered no opinion, just a thought exercise.  Once you start ignoring biology when determining gender, then it seems to me the downstream effect for sports may be to eliminate gender as a differentiating factor.  I am not advocating such a change, just wondering if that is where we're headed and what other people think.

We're not headed in that direction. 0.3% of people in the US are transgender. Sports will not be eliminating gender as a differentiating factor as a result of 0.3% of the population.


Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9878
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2017, 03:50:36 PM »
We're not headed in that direction. 0.3% of people in the US are transgender. Sports will not be eliminating gender as a differentiating factor as a result of 0.3% of the population.

Exactly.
And I'd venture to guess no more than half of that .3 percent are interested or capable of playing sports at a high school level or above, so we're talking about a tiny, tiny number of students here ... over whom the entire sports landscape will not be turned on its head.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2017, 04:25:17 PM by Pakuni »

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5049
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2017, 04:22:25 PM »
What's interesting is this feels like an offshoot of what the military struggles with from a fitness standard perspective. There is a male and female standard because they argument is that physiologically men and women are different so they should have different standards. However the tank tread is the same weight regardless of the gender lighting it so do you need one standard? If you have one standard though, the % of female population who would meet a joint standard is smaller than the % of male population who would meet a joint standard so are you limiting female opportunities?

FYI those physiological differences go both ways, female pilots can handle higher g-loads than men (on average) because they are generally smaller and have smaller capillaries so it takes more g's for the blood to pool in the brain(negative g's - red out) or the feet (positive g's - black/grey out)

The transgender thing happens to be at the focal point of what is a man vs a woman and should we be treating them universally even though there are physical differences.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2017, 04:24:27 PM »
i don't believe it's about "feelings" as much as it is "fairness".  this is a dude competing against girls.  ok, let's flip it-maybe the dude is lucky he wasn't beaten by a bunch of girls.  which brings up another question that wasn't asked-how would the dad or the dude have reacted if his child got his arse kicked?  and, you are using a measurable physical attribute(height) as opposed to what's between the legs. if one feels they aren't being put into a "fair" situation, i guess it can then become an emotional issue as well

ok, to address your thoughts on advantage/disadvantage in track-well, that's all fine and good, but where is the line drawn?  also, i haven't seen any studies regarding the parity of male/female performances within specific sports.  i.e. track vs. all the rest or age levels at which a disparity may become significant. 

i should have clarified-"where is the line drawn" i mean, which sports?  track is ok but not basketball or any of the others for that matter?


By the rules she is not a "dude."

And what would she had done if she had lost?  Hopefully showed gracious sportsmanship in defeat.

You make it sound like this was all set up so she could win a few races.

uncle zeffy

  • Scholarship Player
  • **
  • Posts: 81
Re: Is this fair?
« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2017, 04:52:54 PM »
This is a tough one, if we just look at the results of this years Illionis state track meet you see Males have an overwhelming advantage over females, and not just the "Dwight Howard Freak" advantage

lets look at the IHSA qualifying standards for 3A, only doing field events because 1. I am lazy, and 2. I hate table code

EventBoys Qualifying MinimumGirls Qualifying Minimum 2017 Girls Winning Result
Long Jump 22'1"17'6"19'10.5"
Pole Vault 13'7"10'3"12'3"
High Jump 6'3"5"3"6'0"
Shot Put52'7"38'0"46'3"
Triple Jump 44'4"35'11"42'8.5"
Discus157'9"116'11"140'11"

The winning females this year at the Illinois state track meet, WOULDN'T EVEN QUALIFY to be at the meet if they were male...


Male
http://www.ihsa.org/documents/trb/2016-17/2017%20TRB%20Qualifying%20Standards.pdf

Female
http://www.ihsa.org/documents/trg/2016-17/2017%20TRG%20Qualifying%20Standards.pdf

 

feedback