Any Tennis Fans Here

[Tugg Speedman]

At the end of the year, the ATP (Men, Women are WTA) has a new tournament.  It's called the NextGen and it will feature the top 8 players under 21.  It will be played in November in Milan.  It is similar to the overall top 8 also played in November in London.

Interestingly, the NextGen tournament is going to have major format changes

* best of 5 four game sets 
* 5 point tiebreaker at 3-3
*  No ads
* No lets
* 25-second serve clock on the court that starts the moment of the out call on the previous point.  You must the hit the ball with your racquet before the clock hits zero or it is a fault (the point is the serve clock will be strictly enforced, no exceptions).

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These changes have me curious for this tournament six months from its start.  I hope they accomplish their goal of making tennis a faster-paced game to watch and therefore more interesting.

Thoughts?
 

[warriorchick]

Tennis hasn't been interesting since the days of Borg,  McEnroe, Evert, and King.

And yes, I do want you to get off my lawn.

[Skitch]

Tennis hasn't been interesting since the days of Borg,  McEnroe, Evert, and King.

And yes, I do want you to get off my lawn.

Since you mention King,  I just saw this. Looks interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ykcuAS1F4

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Tennis hasn't been interesting since the days of Borg,  McEnroe, Evert, and King.

And yes, I do want you to get off my lawn.

Dont say that to any Brits. Although you have to admit Serena winning the Aussie Open without dropping a set while pregnant may be the greatest sporting achievement in history.

[StillAWarrior]

Dont say that to any Brits. Although you have to admit Serena winning the Aussie Open without dropping a set while pregnant may be the greatest sporting achievement in history.

I would have been more impressed if Federer had done it.

[warriorchick]

Dont say that to any Brits. Although you have to admit Serena winning the Aussie Open without dropping a set while pregnant may be the greatest sporting achievement in history.

Pregnant women do tough stuff all the time.  You just don't hear about it much because they don't go around bragging and/or complaining about it. 

Joan Benoit came in 9th in the freaking Boston Marathon when she was three months pregnant.  And on a personal note, I was in my third month when I participated in the Illinois Masters Swimming state championship and got a PR in all 8 events.   A few weeks later, I swam at Nationals and had some top 20 finishes.  And no one knew I was pregnant except for Glow.

[GB Warrior]

I played in high school, so that makes me something of a resident expert.

[GooooMarquette]

I played in high school, so that makes me something of a resident expert.

Well played.

[Tugg Speedman]

Tennis hasn't been interesting since the days of Borg,  McEnroe, Evert, and King.

And yes, I do want you to get off my lawn.

And from the Voice thread

Just stay on my good side and you have nothing to worry about.

Don't worry  Should I ever decide to wield my great power over Scoopers, there are plenty of people ahead of you I would deal with first.

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Simple question ... how is glow holding up today?

[warriorchick]

And from the Voice thread

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Simple question ... how is glow holding up today?

Glow and I are fine.  And he agrees with me on the tennis thing 100%.

[Tugg Speedman]

Glow and I are fine.  And he agrees with me on the tennis thing 100%.

Tell him to get off my lawn!!

[BM1090]

I like Tennis a lot and think it's a great sport. I always tune in for the majors, but admit that I don't follow much outside of that. If an American player could break into the top 8 or so I think it would definitely increase my interest.

I know Isner is a good player, but you kind of know what you're going to get from him in big tournaments. His serve will win him the first few matches but he can't beat the truly great players.

[chapman]

* best of 5 four game sets 
* 5 point tiebreaker at 3-3
*  No ads
* No lets
* 25-second serve clock on the court that starts the moment of the out call on the previous point.  You must the hit the ball with your racquet before the clock hits zero or it is a fault (the point is the serve clock will be strictly enforced, no exceptions).

ADHD comes to tennis.  Let's just have single point matches and get an entire tournament done in an afternoon while we're at it. 

[Tugg Speedman]

I like Tennis a lot and think it's a great sport. I always tune in for the majors, but admit that I don't follow much outside of that. If an American player could break into the top 8 or so I think it would definitely increase my interest.

I know Isner is a good player, but you kind of know what you're going to get from him in big tournaments. His serve will win him the first few matches but he can't beat the truly great players.

I agree with all of this ...

The problem.  Europe is roughly 300ish million people and then have 30 to 40 players in the Men's top 100.  The US is roughly 300ish million people and has 8 in the top 100 (Jack Sock as the top American at 14).

The problem is the USTA development of players is a disaster and has been a disaster for decades.  That is why many people are like Warriorchick and think the sport stopped about 40 years ago with McEnroe and King.

Why is it a disaster?  The mentality that any kid at 12 has to leave home and live in a Florida academy and train 7 hours a day is why Americans don't thrive in this sport.  Only rich kids from Southern CA (e.g., Ceci Bellis, Jard Donaldson, Taylor Fritz) that have parents that will spend hundreds of thousands on their development make it.  Middle-class to poor kids have no chance at this sport because of the cost.  Parents that actually enjoy being parents and don't want to permanently ship their kids to Florida at 12 or 13 also shy away from this sport.


That said, for the level of player and the level of athlete playing today is simply outstanding.  Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray might be among the best ever and they are all at their prime playing each other now.  A joy to watch.

[warriorchick]

I agree with all of this ...

The problem.  Europe is roughly 300ish million people and then have 30 to 40 players in the Men's top 100.  The US is roughly 300ish million people and has 8 in the top 100 (Jack Sock as the top American at 14).

The problem is the USTA development of players is a disaster and has been a disaster for decades.  That is why many people are like Warriorchick and think the sport stopped about 40 years ago with McEnroe and King.

Why is it a disaster?  The mentality that any kid at 12 has to leave home and live in a Florida academy and train 7 hours a day is why Americans don't thrive in this sport.  Only rich kids from Southern CA (e.g., Ceci Bellis, Jard Donaldson, Taylor Fritz) that have parents that will spend hundreds of thousands on their development make it.  Middle-class to poor kids have no chance at this sport because of the cost.  Parents that actually enjoy being parents and don't want to permanently ship their kids to Florida at 12 or 13 also shy away from this sport.


That said, for the level of player and the level of athlete playing today is simply outstanding.  Federer, Nadal, Djokovic and Murray might be among the best ever and they are all at their prime playing each other now.  A joy to watch.

What they need to do is to find a way to make a point last more than one or two volleys. I don't know if it's the skill level of the current players, or the current racket technology, but the best matches were always when every point was a a war.  You'd see a shot that you knew for sure couldn't be returned, and amazingly enough, it was, and it the volleys would continue for 30 more seconds.
Watching tennis now is like watching fencing.  The point is over before you can even figure out what happened.

[BM1090]

What they need to do is to find a way to make a point last more than one or two volleys. I don't know if it's the skill level of the current players, or the current racket technology, but the best matches were always when every point was a a war.  You'd see a shot that you knew for sure couldn't be returned, and amazingly enough, it was, and it the volleys would continue for 30 more seconds.
Watching tennis now is like watching fencing.  The point is over before you can even figure out what happened.

Really? I don't agree at all. There are a lot of aces because serving has gotten so good. But when you watch the top players play, it's a lot of defensive tennis and long rallies. Still unbelievable shot making.

There are a lot of power players but most of the guys who rely on that bow out before the big matches.

[cheebs09]

Really? I don't agree at all. There are a lot of aces because serving has gotten so good. But when you watch the top players play, it's a lot of defensive tennis and long rallies. Still unbelievable shot making.

There are a lot of power players but most of the guys who rely on that bow out before the big matches.

I agree. With the rise of Federer, Nadal, Djokovic, and Murray, the rallies have gotten amazing. They all play such great defense and can hit some crazy shots. I would say the Sampras era had a lot more of the short points with more serve and volley and power servers.

I don't know the answer. It may be suffering the same fate as golf with perception as a country club sport. Also, the lack of American talent hurts popularity.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree that the shot making and the length of rallies are fine.  Regarding the NextGen changes...

I'm also cool with the best of 5 4 set games.  This is not really ADHD.  Still, have to win 12 games to win the match (2x6 or 3x 4) so the idea of more "resets" to 0-0 sets also makes it "more even."  The idea of no lets and ads (the receiver picks the side to serve at deuce) does a lot to taking away the big serve as a weapon.  Finally, the serve clock gets rid of the problem every sport has ... too much standing around.  (oh, I forgot, they will allow formal coaching as well).

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The real problem is the lack of Americans.  And that is because 85% of the country doesn't even how to start in the sport.  That's because they are not willing to shell out the money.

The USTA makes about $200 million a year, mostly from the US Open.  They use most of this money for development at their training Centers in Carson CA and Orlando.  The rest goes to a few regional centers.

Larry Ellenson and Mark Hurd (Oracle) have been arguing that they should ditch this Soviet-style approach of sending you kids to live in barracks and train 7 hours a day and spend this money, as in hundreds of millions of dollars, on racquets, shoes and coach training.  Push the sport to where all sports start, the high schools.  Let the high school hand out shoes and racquets to get kids into the sport.

If they do this, they also need to make high school tennis something kids want to do.  Among elite junior players, as in the top 100 in the nation, High School is considered second class and a lot of them do not play it.  (if you're into this ... award USTA junior points and UTR rankings for high school matches).

If we want to get back to 30 to 40 Americans in the top 100, tennis has to figure out what basketball has ... Lebron can become Lebron and still grow up in Akron.  Ditto Derrick Rose in Chicago.

If you have a young kid that is showing some real promise in tennis, as early as 10 or 11 coaches will tell you your kids needs to move away, down to FL or Southern CA and live in a barracks and train 7 hours a day.  That might have worked 40 years ago when Nick Bolleteri started the first Tennis Academy.  But, in 2017, that no longer works.

[cheebs09]

Which makes the Williams' story more incredible. Richard Williams kept them out of that type of upbringing.

[Tugg Speedman]

Which makes the Williams' story more incredible. Richard Williams kept them out of that type of upbringing.

Yes ... and so was Federer and Nadal as well.  They shunned their national federation development programs and did it on their own. 

Even John Isner and Jack Sock did not come through the traditional path of USTA development.  So not only is the USTA spending a stupid amount of money for development, and only has 8 players in the top 100 (versus 30 to 40 from a similar sized Europe) but the top 2 (Sock and Isner) did not go through their system and Donald Young of Chicago (#45 this week) has openly blasted the system as being F'ed.  So did Agassi in his book, he ripped it bad.

[MU82]

I like tennis, grew up watching Connors, McEnroe, Borg, Evert, Martina, etc.

Nadal is my all-time favorite. I love his athletic ability and his shot-making, just find him very compelling to watch. Top-5 all-time without a doubt, maybe top-2. He is a little past his prime, however, and Federer is well past his ... but both obviously are still great enough to compete for the Australian Open championship a few months back, so they're still great. And Djokovic and Murray are right in their primes, and there are some very good young players coming up. On the ladies side, it's pretty much all Serena; it's like when Tiger or Jack were in their primes in golf - if anybody else wins, it's an epic upset.

I fully acknowledge that the lack of great U.S. men (and women after Serena) hurt the popularity of the sport here. But personally, it doesn't matter one lick to me. The Nadal-Federer final was absolutely riveting sports, and anybody who didn't appreciate it just because neither is American obviously isn't a tennis fan.

[jesmu84]

The greats of today and yesterday still trained non-stop as kids. Sure, it might not have been at an academy or whatever, but they all played a ridiculous amount as kids.

So, regardless of location, you still have to have the means to do this.

The European/USA comparison is silly.  Different sports are popular in different geographic regions. That's just how life is. You could make the same comparison of top talent in soccer.