What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?

[wadesworld]

Here's the question.  How much did James Harden get worn down throughout the course of the game because he was trying to defend either 7'1" Pau Gasol or 7' LaMarcus Aldridge down in the post, leaving him less legs down the stretch to be effective offensively?  I hated that strategy for the Rockets even though he's physical enough to stop Pau and LaMarcus from bullying all the way to the rim.  Even if Pau and LaMarcus continue to play soft against him and shoot fadeaways rather than just accepting that maybe they don't get to the rim but they can at least turn and just shoot right over the top of him without a running fadeaway through the lane, Harden is going to get worn down physically trying to hold his ground defending 2 guys with 8 inches and 50 lbs on him.

[Pakuni]

Here's the question.  How much did James Harden get worn down throughout the course of the game because he was trying to defend either 7'1" Pau Gasol or 7' LaMarcus Aldridge down in the post, leaving him less legs down the stretch to be effective offensively?  I hated that strategy for the Rockets even though he's physical enough to stop Pau and LaMarcus from bullying all the way to the rim.  Even if Pau and LaMarcus continue to play soft against him and shoot fadeaways rather than just accepting that maybe they don't get to the rim but they can at least turn and just shoot right over the top of him without a running fadeaway through the lane, Harden is going to get worn down physically trying to hold his ground defending 2 guys with 8 inches and 50 lbs on him.

This is all built on a false premise, i.e. that Harden plays defense. 

[wadesworld]

This is all built on a false premise, i.e. that Harden plays defense. 

I agree, and honestly if it didn't play any part in wearing him down for his offensive purposes I actually would like the move because he defends in the post a ton better than he defends a guard handling the ball.  But again, even though he held his own fairly well, there's no way a 6'4" guard, no matter how strong he is, isn't going to get worn down trying to cover a 7 foot post player all game.

[MU82]

Tony Parker is a no doubt Hall of Famer? Will his plaque read, "Pretty good player that had the good fortune of playing with Tim Duncan."

Lazar, I'm not one of Scoop's "frequent wagerers," but I would gladly bet you many 6-packs that Parker will be a Hall of Famer.

I'd be surprised if he didn't go in on his first attempt, although I wouldn't bet on that. The guy was a huge part of a 4x NBA champion, for cripe's sake, and has some terrific regular-season stats, too.

[BM1090]

Harden actually graded out as a very good on ball defender this year. Much improved from the past.

He has been awful tonight though.

[Pakuni]

Tonight's game ought to disqualify Harden and Leonard from the MVP race.

[Jockey]

Tonight's game ought to disqualify Harden and Leonard from the MVP race.

I guess you are joking (?), but what does being injured for a game that has zero effect on the MVP race have to do with anything?

[Jockey]

6x All-Star
4x NBA Champion
3x NBA Second Team
Finals MVP

That's a pretty strong resume.

Basketball Reference puts his HOF probability at 93.9%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Very strong resume, but you left a lot out. He was an outstanding International player before joining the Spurs.

The basketball HOF is not an MBA HOF - it covers basketball, period. Parker and Manu are sure-fire HOFers

[Pakuni]

I guess you are joking (?), but what does being injured for a game that has zero effect on the MVP race have to do with anything?

Yes, I was joking.
Though I suppose one could legitimately ask how much of a most valuable player a guy is when his team can win a playoff elimination game by 39 points on the road without him.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Very strong resume, but you left a lot out. He was an outstanding International player before joining the Spurs.

The basketball HOF is not an MBA HOF - it covers basketball, period. Parker and Manu are sure-fire HOFers

Parker was 19 when he joined the Spurs. What are his international accomplishments we should consider?  That is a serious question.  How long was his pre-NBA career? What noteworthy accomplishments does he have? How about Olympic and other international competition?

As for Ginobili, Basketball reference has Manu's HOF probability as 20%.  I actually thought that would be a little higher given his work representing Argentina. Gold and bronze in the Olympics, silver in what is now called the Basketball World Cup. Plus a very distinguished European career before joining the Spurs at 25.

[MU82]

Harden totally spit the bit when his team needed him most.

He went 4-for-18 in the fourth quarter/OT of G5 and then all of G6. In the Spurs series, he committed 31 turnovers and had a ghastly 19.3% TOV. Nine Spurs had a better eFG% than his .505.

During the playoffs, he had games in which he shot 3-17, 8-25 and 5-16, and he averaged 5.4 turnovers per game.

Yikes!

I'd take Westbrook over him in a heartbeat, but I know he had his own troubles and his own damning stats. I certainly understand why others would take Harden.

Neither can carry LeBron's cape, though I'm not sure anybody here is saying otherwise.

[Pakuni]

Neither can carry LeBron's cape, though I'm not sure anybody here is saying otherwise.

LeBron is the league's best player. He's just not this year's most valuable player.
The Cavs probably are still a playoff team without him (yes, I know their record without him isn't good).
And the Spurs are still really solid without Leonard, as we saw last night.
Without Westbrook, the Thunder are picking in the top 10 on draft night.

[wadesworld]

LeBron is the league's best player. He's just not this year's most valuable player.
The Cavs probably are still a playoff team without him (yes, I know their record without him isn't good).
And the Spurs are still really solid without Leonard, as we saw last night.
Without Westbrook, the Thunder are picking in the top 10 on draft night.

Agreed with your first line.

Agreed with your second line and I'd take it a step further and say they're still a top 4 seed in the East without LeBron.

Not really sure about your third line as I think coming to conclusions based on a sample size of one is very reliable.  Patty Mills, Jonathon Simmons, Kyle Anderson, David Lee, Dejounte Murray, and Manu Ginobli (at 39) can all play a good game or even a good series, but if they're being relied on to be key contributors over an 82 game season are they really going to be that good?  I'm not sure I'm sold.

And you can probably say the same thing about Harden and the Rockets as you can Westbrook and the Thunder.  Lou Williams and Eric Gordon are decent scorers, Patrick Beverly is a good, dirty defender, Trevor Ariza is a solid 2 way player, Capella will eventually be really good, Anderson can hit some 3s, but really it's Harden making everyone around him way, way, way better than they are.  It's Harden and a bunch of guys who do one thing well and that's it.  There's a reason that you see guys like Ariza and Gordon take steps forward this year, and that reason is Harden.  Harden makes those guys a lot better.  Can you say the same about Westbrook?  I'm not sure he really makes anybody on his team better.  He puts up gigantic numbers, but it's not all that surprising that suddenly Waiters is a really good player and Durant is more efficient than ever when they leave the Thunder.

[WarriorFan]

Back to the list making:

1.  Leonard - best all around player of the top 3 candidates this year
2.  Westbrook - because of an incredible year, but no team with him doing what he does will ever get beyond the first round of playoffs.
3.  Harden - as much as I hate him because he pushes off on nearly every drive/shot and travels badly (like 5 steps) on most of his drives, he is good in this Steve Nash role. And he needs to be hidden on defense.
4.  LeBron - best player in the NBA, not the MVP.  Hard to explain why.  Probably because his team didn't live up to expectations in the regular season...
5.  Kyrie / Wall / IT - fun to watch all of them
6.  Greek Freak... and moving up the list fast

ROY = Brogdon.   I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't get it.

[Jockey]

LeBron is the league's best player. He's just not this year's most valuable player.
The Cavs probably are still a playoff team without him (yes, I know their record without him isn't good).

Well, we know Love can do the job. Didn't he lead Minnesota to the playoffs every year?

And Stephon Marbury, oops... I mean Kyrie Irving, sure looks like a star. At least for 30 or 40 games a year.

I think this team would be lucky to get a 7th or 8th seed without Lebron.

Sorry for the sarcasm.

[wadesworld]

Well, we know Love can do the job. Didn't he lead Minnesota to the playoffs every year?

And Stephon Marbury, oops... I mean Kyrie Irving, sure looks like a star. At least for 30 or 40 games a year.

I think this team would be lucky to get a 7th or 8th seed without Lebron.

Sorry for the sarcasm.

Really?  You think the Bulls, Bucks, Pacers, and Heat or Pistons would've all been better than the Cavs without LeBron?  I wholeheartedly disagree.

I'd argue Kevin Love's inability to get the Wolves to the Playoffs has more to do with the Wolves organization than with Love, and being in the Western Conference.  Otherwise you must think KAT is an empty stat hog who will never do anything in his career unless a LeBron comes and saves him.

Not sure what to tell you if you don't think Kyrie Irving is any good.

[BM1090]

Back to the list making:

1.  Leonard - best all around player of the top 3 candidates this year
2.  Westbrook - because of an incredible year, but no team with him doing what he does will ever get beyond the first round of playoffs.
3.  Harden - as much as I hate him because he pushes off on nearly every drive/shot and travels badly (like 5 steps) on most of his drives, he is good in this Steve Nash role. And he needs to be hidden on defense.
4.  LeBron - best player in the NBA, not the MVP.  Hard to explain why.  Probably because his team didn't live up to expectations in the regular season...
5.  Kyrie / Wall / IT - fun to watch all of them
6.  Greek Freak... and moving up the list fast

ROY = Brogdon.   I'll be very disappointed if he doesn't get it.

No. He doesn't need to be hidden on defense. He was a good defender this year. His lack of defense was always about lack of effort/desire, and he corrected that this year.

I also think Curry gets dismissed way too easily just because KD signed on. Why in the world would Kyrie be put ahead of Curry? In a down year for Steph he was still far more efficient than any of those guys. And he's better defensively than Kyrie and IT.

I can see an argument for Wall, because they are far different players. I'd disagree, but I can see an argument.

[MU82]

Can you say the same about Westbrook?  I'm not sure he really makes anybody on his team better.  He puts up gigantic numbers, but it's not all that surprising that suddenly Waiters is a really good player and Durant is more efficient than ever when they leave the Thunder.

Silliness, wades.

Adams has gotten progressively better while playing with Westbrook, as have Kanter and Roberson; I guess you'd say it's despite Westbrook and be able to offer some kind of proof. Oladipo had his most efficient year as Westbrook's teammate. Meanwhile, since leaving OKC, Ibaka's numbers have been less impressive. Anybody can find a handful of examples to prove any point about anything.

And Durant? Really? So you're saying that it good to have Curry, Thompson and Green as teammates? Call CNN ... we have a Scoop scoop!

Come on, wades, you can do better than that!

[wadesworld]

Silliness, wades.

Adams has gotten progressively better while playing with Westbrook, as have Kanter and Roberson; I guess you'd say it's despite Westbrook and be able to offer some kind of proof. Oladipo had his most efficient year as Westbrook's teammate. Meanwhile, since leaving OKC, Ibaka's numbers have been less impressive. Anybody can find a handful of examples to prove any point about anything.

And Durant? Really? So you're saying that it good to have Curry, Thompson and Green as teammates? Call CNN ... we have a Scoop scoop!

Come on, wades, you can do better than that!

I would say Adams, Kanter, and Roberson have gotten better because they are no longer 20 year olds, not because they play with a great point guard that gets them the ball in spots that they can succeed.  Giannis didn't get better because he was playing alongside Thon Maker this year.  He got better because he's 22 years old and his game is developing.  Same deal with Adams, Kanter, Roberson.  That tends to happen early in players' career.  Now if McDermott and Gibson came over and were suddenly producing like guys like Ariza and Anderson are on the Rockets then maybe I'd agree.  Both of those guys came over to OKC and played worse than they were with Chicago.

This is Serge's first year away from OKC and his numbers were better this year than they were last year.  He was better 3 years ago because he wasn't playing the Nigel Hayes roll and was actually sticking around the basket.  But since he started deciding he was a shooting guard offensively this was definitely his best year.  '14-'15 was the first year he shot more than 0.7 3 pointers/game.  Since then this was his best shooting year from the field, from 3 point land, and from an efficiency standpoint while averaging his most points/game.  Highest assist percentage, lowest turnover percentage, highest usage, etc.  He did get worse over the last few years, but that was due to a change in his style of play, not in a change to his team.  The team change actually saw him improve.

I don't know, I thought Westbrook was better than any of the players listed?

[Jockey]

Not sure what to tell you if you don't think Kyrie Irving is any good.

I think Irving is one of the top 10 "talents" in the league. I also think he plays that way only about half the time. Thus, my comparison to Marbury.