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Author Topic: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?  (Read 12009 times)

StillAWarrior

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2017, 08:52:50 AM »
LeBron is the best player in the world and the best player of this generation.  That doesn't mean you automatically give him the MVP.  He didn't have the best season statistically and his team wasn't the best team in his conference.  He didn't have the most important impact on his team either.

LeBron is having the best postseason and if the Cavs win the title he will undoubtedly and deservedly win the Finals MVP.  But for regular season MVP I don't see a case for him being #1.  Certainly on the ballot though.

I know how you feel about LeBron, so I know that's not necessarily easy for you to say.  I agree with almost everything you said in your post.  I would change "his team wasn't the best team in his conference" to "his team didn't have the best record in his conference."  I'm picking nits.  I'm a big LeBron fan, but agree that he doesn't deserve MVP this year.  Westbrook. 
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wadesworld

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2017, 09:08:16 AM »
I know how you feel about LeBron, so I know that's not necessarily easy for you to say.  I agree with almost everything you said in your post.  I would change "his team wasn't the best team in his conference" to "his team didn't have the best record in his conference."  I'm picking nits.  I'm a big LeBron fan, but agree that he doesn't deserve MVP this year.  Westbrook.

You are right, his team didn't have the best regular season but will be in the NBA Finals.
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MU82

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2017, 09:42:52 PM »
I agree with all you say, but......

I think even you who has repeatedly talked about Lebron's greatness, still possibly underestimate Lebron a bit.

Yeah, he took games off, but I think we need to consider the fact his team (like the Bulls with MJ) plays 100+ games a year. Every Year. Westbrook never has to worry about that much of a beating on his body. And while Irving and Love are very good players, neither is a great player. The Cavs are a borderline playoff team without Lebron.

When the greatest player on the planet leads the league in minutes per game, sets career highs in rebounds and assists, scores 27 point per game, and is one of the premier defenders in the league - that is an MVP season.

I have rooted against the Cavs and against the Heat in the playoffs - in other words against Lebron - but I have to give him the MVP for the way he has elevated his team to being a co-favorite to win the title again in addition to his stats.

All the same, I hope Westbrook gets the trophy..

Well, thanks for mostly agreeing, but I don't think I underestimate LeBron one iota.

As for this line - I think we need to consider the fact his team (like the Bulls with MJ) plays 100+ games a year. Every Year.  - here's a fact for you:

Jordan played EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1995-96, EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1996-97 and EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1997-98, and averaged 38.1 mpg (even more mpg than LeBron played this season in his 74 games). All while the Bulls were playing 100+ games every season. When the Bulls planned to rest Jordan for a PRESEASON game in Detroit, Stern strongly recommended the team reconsider because the Pistons had sold out the exhibition game. And yes, Jordan ended up playing about half that game.

So yes, LeBron is amazing. I've said it repeatedly. But once again, he pales in comparison to something Jordan did.

Thanks for bringing it up!
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wadesworld

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2017, 10:19:06 PM »
I would like to edit my MVP ballot after tonight.

1) MANU!
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MUBurrow

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2017, 11:04:30 PM »
As for this line - I think we need to consider the fact his team (like the Bulls with MJ) plays 100+ games a year. Every Year.  - here's a fact for you:

Jordan played EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1995-96, EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1996-97 and EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1997-98, and averaged 38.1 mpg (even more mpg than LeBron played this season in his 74 games). All while the Bulls were playing 100+ games every season. When the Bulls planned to rest Jordan for a PRESEASON game in Detroit, Stern strongly recommended the team reconsider because the Pistons had sold out the exhibition game. And yes, Jordan ended up playing about half that game.

So yes, LeBron is amazing. I've said it repeatedly. But once again, he pales in comparison to something Jordan did.

I want to stay agnostic about the value of playing every game, and it doesn't necessarily bear upon the single-season MVP award, but comparing LeBron's and Jordan's PT requires bearing a couple of other important points in mind. First, Jordan skipped the 93-94 season altogether and played 17 games in the 94-95 season, so in highlighting his GP and MPG from 95-98, you have to compare that against LeBron's occasional days off. Second, Jordan's first NBA season was his age 21 season, while LeBron already had played 159 NBA games by that point, averaging more than 40 minutes per. Third, it will be a minor miracle if LeBron's body holds up as well and as long at 6'8", 250 as Jordan's did at 6'6" 195.

MU82

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2017, 08:13:51 AM »
I want to stay agnostic about the value of playing every game, and it doesn't necessarily bear upon the single-season MVP award, but comparing LeBron's and Jordan's PT requires bearing a couple of other important points in mind. First, Jordan skipped the 93-94 season altogether and played 17 games in the 94-95 season, so in highlighting his GP and MPG from 95-98, you have to compare that against LeBron's occasional days off. Second, Jordan's first NBA season was his age 21 season, while LeBron already had played 159 NBA games by that point, averaging more than 40 minutes per. Third, it will be a minor miracle if LeBron's body holds up as well and as long at 6'8", 250 as Jordan's did at 6'6" 195.

Fair points, although I'm guessing LeBron's body - chiseled from steel - will be just fine.

I was just responding to a comment in which LeBron resting was because his teams historically play 100+ games, like MJ did.

I'd say your comment especially has merit for the 1995-96 season, as Jordan was coming off of having not played for most of the previous two seasons - although he wasn't really "resting," he was learning how to play baseball. By 1997-98, and after having gone through two 100-game seasons, I'd say the "MJ rested a lot from 1993-95" factor was pretty much erased.
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reinko

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2017, 09:07:39 AM »
Fair points, although I'm guessing LeBron's body - chiseled from steel - will be just fine.

I was just responding to a comment in which LeBron resting was because his teams historically play 100+ games, like MJ did.

I'd say your comment especially has merit for the 1995-96 season, as Jordan was coming off of having not played for most of the previous two seasons - although he wasn't really "resting," he was learning how to play baseball. By 1997-98, and after having gone through two 100-game seasons, I'd say the "MJ rested a lot from 1993-95" factor was pretty much erased.

Total games LBJ played the last six seasons, not that far off from the hundo game season MJ played during his prime

2010-2011: 100
2011-2012: 85
2012-2013: 99
2013-2014: 97
2014-2015: 89
2015-2016: 97
2016-2017: 74 + # of playoff games (most likely another 18-22)



StillAWarrior

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2017, 09:18:12 AM »
I would like to edit my MVP ballot after tonight.

1) MANU!
That was awesome.
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GGGG

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2017, 09:20:54 AM »
Jordan played EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1995-96, EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1996-97 and EVERY SINGLE GAME in 1997-98, and averaged 38.1 mpg (even more mpg than LeBron played this season in his 74 games). All while the Bulls were playing 100+ games every season. When the Bulls planned to rest Jordan for a PRESEASON game in Detroit, Stern strongly recommended the team reconsider because the Pistons had sold out the exhibition game. And yes, Jordan ended up playing about half that game.

So yes, LeBron is amazing. I've said it repeatedly. But once again, he pales in comparison to something Jordan did.

Thanks for bringing it up!


This is another silly criticism.  Resting players due to the length of the NBA season is a pretty common practice these days.  Jordan was about LBJ's age when he came out of retirement.  The next three years he ranked #12 (3090), #18 (3106), and #9 (3181) in overall minutes.  This year's leader (Andrew Wiggins at 3048), would have finished at 16th, not in top 20, and 16th in those three seasons.

Lebron is #10 this year at 2794.  This is not a "Michael Jordan is just tougher than LBJ" issue.  This is a "The NBA is getting a lot smarter about how to allocate minutes" issue.

MUBurrow

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2017, 09:31:53 AM »
Fair points, although I'm guessing LeBron's body - chiseled from steel - will be just fine.

I was just responding to a comment in which LeBron resting was because his teams historically play 100+ games, like MJ did.

I'd say your comment especially has merit for the 1995-96 season, as Jordan was coming off of having not played for most of the previous two seasons - although he wasn't really "resting," he was learning how to play baseball. By 1997-98, and after having gone through two 100-game seasons, I'd say the "MJ rested a lot from 1993-95" factor was pretty much erased.

Totally on board with that - the 95-96 season is almost akin to Adrian Peterson's bounceback year after his ACL tear. AP was 30 that year and ran for 1485 yards on 327 carries. Also agree that the baseball rest was pretty much irrelevant by 97-98, and the relevancy was probably somewhere in between for 96-97.

I hope LeBron's body holds up, but the way he's built, he may start breaking down in the Tiger Woods kind of way. Then again, I think LeBron's body is naturally more made to carry all of that muscle, whereas Tiger forced it (against the advice of his coaches) for a number of years and his body just started giving up.

MU82

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2017, 12:26:57 PM »

This is another silly criticism.  Resting players due to the length of the NBA season is a pretty common practice these days.  Jordan was about LBJ's age when he came out of retirement.  The next three years he ranked #12 (3090), #18 (3106), and #9 (3181) in overall minutes.  This year's leader (Andrew Wiggins at 3048), would have finished at 16th, not in top 20, and 16th in those three seasons.

Lebron is #10 this year at 2794.  This is not a "Michael Jordan is just tougher than LBJ" issue.  This is a "The NBA is getting a lot smarter about how to allocate minutes" issue.

I wasn't really "criticizing" LeBron. I was just trying to state facts about the number of games and minutes Jordan played.

It's funny that I'm now seen as a LeBron "critic," as I'm one of this board's biggest LeBron fans. The man is amazing, and I believe it is fully possible that he could surpass Jordan as the game's greatest of all-time. I don't think it will happen, just as Tiger couldn't supplant Jack, but I think it's possible.
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GGGG

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2017, 12:36:12 PM »
I wasn't really "criticizing" LeBron. I was just trying to state facts about the number of games and minutes Jordan played.

It's funny that I'm now seen as a LeBron "critic," as I'm one of this board's biggest LeBron fans. The man is amazing, and I believe it is fully possible that he could surpass Jordan as the game's greatest of all-time. I don't think it will happen, just as Tiger couldn't supplant Jack, but I think it's possible.


But when you say, "he pales in comparison to something Jordan did," and then not place it in historical context, it is criticism.  James plays as much as Jordan did relative to their eras. 

Jordan is the best of all time.  James isn't there yet and likely won't get there.  And there are a number of valid reasons to support that.  But "he had to team up with guys in Miami," and "he takes games off" aren't valid reasons.

wadesworld

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2017, 12:57:52 PM »

But when you say, "he pales in comparison to something Jordan did," and then not place it in historical context, it is criticism.  James plays as much as Jordan did relative to their eras. 

Jordan is the best of all time.  James isn't there yet and likely won't get there.  And there are a number of valid reasons to support that.  But "he had to team up with guys in Miami," and "he takes games off" aren't valid reasons.

I wasn't arguing that James wasn't an all time great because he had to team up with guys in Miami.  My point is nobody is losing out on a chance to win an NBA championship because of LeBron, which is what Tyrone Lue claimed.  Like what really great teams has LeBron beat in the Playoffs in his career?  The Celtics big 3, who already had a title so he didn't prevent them from a title.  The Warriors last year, who already had a title so he didn't prevent them from winning a title.  The Spurs in 2013, who already had 4 titles so he didn't prevent them from winning a title.  The Pacers in the past, or the Raptors the last 2 years?  Come on.  The Thunder?  But were they a great team who just couldn't beat LeBron?  Or were they a solid team that also has lost to the Spurs, Warriors, etc.?

LeBron really hasn't prevented any great teams or great players from winning a title like MJ did, and I'm not sure that's even remotely debatable.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2017, 01:21:53 PM by wadesworld »
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GGGG

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2017, 01:11:24 PM »
nm

MU82

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2017, 11:17:31 PM »
On another note ...

In Game 5 vs the Spurs, especially the 4th quarter and OT, James Harden was guilty of pretty much all the stuff Russell Westbrook was ripped for in the Rockets' previous series. Harden took numerous crappy shots, didn't get the offense initiated, and the Spurs won without Leonard and Parker.

Now, D'Antoni definitely gets a share of the blame for refusing to use his bench, and Harden probably was tired. But Westbrook almost never leaves a game, and his detractors didn't seem to accept that as an excuse for his poor 4th-quarter play (and decision-making).
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wadesworld

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 11:36:51 PM »
On another note ...

In Game 5 vs the Spurs, especially the 4th quarter and OT, James Harden was guilty of pretty much all the stuff Russell Westbrook was ripped for in the Rockets' previous series. Harden took numerous crappy shots, didn't get the offense initiated, and the Spurs won without Leonard and Parker.

Now, D'Antoni definitely gets a share of the blame for refusing to use his bench, and Harden probably was tired. But Westbrook almost never leaves a game, and his detractors didn't seem to accept that as an excuse for his poor 4th-quarter play (and decision-making).

Westbrook took 43 shots in a 48 minute game.  Harden took 24 shots in a 53 minute game.
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GGGG

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2017, 08:30:37 AM »
I wasn't arguing that James wasn't an all time great because he had to team up with guys in Miami. 

"MJ essentially won 6 straight Titles when he was actually playing in the NBA.  LeBron has won 3 total, and 2 of those came when he convinced 2 other top 20 players in the NBA (at the time) to take less money so that they could all be on the same team."

OK wades...

wadesworld

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #42 on: May 11, 2017, 08:33:56 AM »
"MJ essentially won 6 straight Titles when he was actually playing in the NBA.  LeBron has won 3 total, and 2 of those came when he convinced 2 other top 20 players in the NBA (at the time) to take less money so that they could all be on the same team."

OK wades...

Lol.  Okay Sultan...

I understand there's a reason you put just one sentence in quotes rather than actually quote my response, it makes it easier to take a portion of a response and spin it into something it wasn't and harder for people to go back and look at the context.  That's always fun to do.  Now let's go back and look at the entire response.

I did have to laugh at Tyrone Lue's comments about how LeBron is like MJ in that in the 90's players weren't able to get rings because MJ was winning them all and today it's the same with LeBron.  MJ essentially won 6 straight Titles when he was actually playing in the NBA.  LeBron has won 3 total, and 2 of those came when he convinced 2 other top 20 players in the NBA (at the time) to take less money so that they could all be on the same team.

As far as where he stands in the greatest of all time, I'm pretty confident in saying MJ is one but beyond that it's really hard to "rank" these guys.  The game was so different back in the 70s than it is today and the players aren't playing against the same players.  To me it's pretty hard to rank all time.  What I can say is that LeBron is the best player of this generation.

Conveniently, you left off the part that preceded that about laughing at Tyrone Lue's comments about LeBron doing the same thing MJ did in blocking everyone from winning a title.  So, no, it wasn't about where he stands on the list of all time greats.  It was about, well, exactly what I said it was about.  Tyrone Lue's comments on LeBron blocking everyone from winning a title like MJ did in the 90s.

So I'll ask for the...umpteenth time.  Who has LeBron prevented from winning a title?  What great players and teams would have had a great shot to win a title if LeBron James wasn't blocking them from doing so every year?

Or, we can just cut out the entire response except for one sentence and claim it was about something it wasn't.  Either way works I guess.

I'll hang up and listen.  Again.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 08:39:31 AM by wadesworld »
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GGGG

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2017, 08:41:04 AM »
Right.  So I'll ask for the...umpteenth time.  Who has LeBron prevented from winning a title?  What great players and teams would have had a great shot to win a title if LeBron James wasn't blocking them from doing so every year?

I'll hang up and listen.  Again.


First, I wasn't defending Lue's comment.  It's a coach saying coachy things about his player.

Second, the OKC Thunder.  But you argued they weren't a "great" team.  But if we apply the same "great" standard to the Jordan era, I would argue that was really only one "great" team that he prevented from winning the title - the Utah Jazz.

You could make an argument to include the Bird-era Pacers as well.  But the Knicks had their shot after Jordan left - stealing home court in the 1994 Finals only to blow it...again.  And I wouldn't call the Blazers, Sonics or Suns any better than the Thunder.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2017, 08:44:04 AM »
On another note ...

In Game 5 vs the Spurs, especially the 4th quarter and OT, James Harden was guilty of pretty much all the stuff Russell Westbrook was ripped for in the Rockets' previous series. Harden took numerous crappy shots, didn't get the offense initiated, and the Spurs won without Leonard and Parker.

Now, D'Antoni definitely gets a share of the blame for refusing to use his bench, and Harden probably was tired. But Westbrook almost never leaves a game, and his detractors didn't seem to accept that as an excuse for his poor 4th-quarter play (and decision-making).

Harden was not good in the 4th/OT. He only shot 2-7, but his main issue was the TOs. He had a charge, threw a bad pass and had the ball stripped a couple times. He was flat-out bad. The difference when compared to Westbrook is that Harden's poor late game performance hasn't been the norm in the playoffs. In the 5-game series vs Houston, Westbrook shot 14-45 (31.1%) in the 4th quarter. He shot 45-107 (42.1%) in Q1-3.

MU82

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2017, 09:17:45 AM »
Harden was not good in the 4th/OT. He only shot 2-7, but his main issue was the TOs. He had a charge, threw a bad pass and had the ball stripped a couple times. He was flat-out bad. The difference when compared to Westbrook is that Harden's poor late game performance hasn't been the norm in the playoffs. In the 5-game series vs Houston, Westbrook shot 14-45 (31.1%) in the 4th quarter. He shot 45-107 (42.1%) in Q1-3.

I agree with all of this.

One needs to look past the pure numbers wades states and to have actually watched the game. Harden was brutally bad down the stretch in G5 and his Rockets found a way to lose to a Spurs team that was playing without arguably the best 2-way player in the NBA and a no-doubt Hall of Famer.

But yes, one reason this stood out is because it was not Harden's norm. He has generally played much better and more efficiently than Westbrook did. I don't dispute that. All I said in my comment was that Harden was bad in G5 and did many of the same things Westbrook did to draw so much criticism.
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BM1090

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2017, 11:47:35 AM »
He set career highs in rebounds and assists this year while scoring almost 27 a game.

I have to wonder when exactly it was that he coasted. And if he put up those numbers while coasting, he is far far and away the greatest of all-time

Faster games. More possessions. Higher counting stats. Believe I read somewhere that while his per game stats were higher his  per 100 posession stats were lower.

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2017, 12:26:48 PM »
Tony Parker is a no doubt Hall of Famer? Will his plaque read, "Pretty good player that had the good fortune of playing with Tim Duncan."

MerrittsMustache

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2017, 12:33:47 PM »
Tony Parker is a no doubt Hall of Famer? Will his plaque read, "Pretty good player that had the good fortune of playing with Tim Duncan."

6x All-Star
4x NBA Champion
3x NBA Second Team
Finals MVP

That's a pretty strong resume.

Basketball Reference puts his HOF probability at 93.9%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

Juan Anderson's Mixtape

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Re: What would your NBA MVP ballot look like?
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2017, 12:38:41 PM »
6x All-Star
4x NBA Champion
3x NBA Second Team
Finals MVP

That's a pretty strong resume.

Basketball Reference puts his HOF probability at 93.9%.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/hof_prob.html

That is a nice resume. IMO, he's more of a fringe HOF. Surprised his HOF probability is that high. I would have guessed closer to 60-70%.