Archie Miller to IU

[wadesworld]

According to your specific, backward-looking metrics, maybe you're right.

One thing Archie does not have a reputation for, however, is possessing the personality of a complete tool.

Butler, ND, and Purdue have shown you can be highly & consistently successful if you can recruit Indiana high schools well. Hell, even Crean with Zeller and that early crew proved that. However, he proved himself time and time again to be entirely off-putting to the very people he needed to be tight with. Found himself shut out of the Indiana HS circuity completely. Archie's no phony, and he's no idiot. You immediately establish those relationships with a sense of mutual respect, and the talent will flow like the salmon of Capistrano. And he can be picky with how that talent fits with roster complexion and the system he wants to run, too. That's one thing, regardless of recruiting class rankings, that I thought Crean was very poor at.

Sometimes cultural fit is just as important as (if not more important than) what the metrics say. On metrics, I'd say they're a push. Culturally, Archie wins in a landslide. People actually like him. Crean's ultimate demise was/is that he's an insufferable human being that overcompensates with arrogance and buffoonery. Plain and simple.

A good post.

[MU82]

In Wade's own words his dream school was Michigan and they were interested in him until they found out his grades.  He couldn't go to the high major schools due to his academic issues.  Props to Crean for letting Wade know he was going to stand by him no matter what his grades word, which allowed him to beat out the powerhouse Illinois State for Wade's services.  There is no debate that if Wade's academics were perfectly in order throughout his high school career his recruitment is a lot different than it was.  Does he still end up at Marquette?  Thankfully we'll never have to find out.

Not gonna argue with you on this, wades, cuz I respect you too much. I simply think you're not giving Crean enough credit. And I'm a guy who likes to take the occasional potshot at the tanned wonder. That'll be my last word on this here. Have a good one.

[GGGG]

IMO this is simple.  Tom Crean is a good coach. 

But Tom Crean isn't a great coach.  Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.

Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.

[cheebs09]

IMO this is simple.  Tom Crean is a good coach. 

But Tom Crean isn't a great coach.  Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.

Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.

Oh goodness. Was the master plan by Larry/Pilarz to bring him back?

Didn't Crean have some difficulty recruiting Wisconsin because of his relationship with AAU and high school coaches at the end? He got Christopherson, but I thought I remember he ticked a lot of coaches off and they wouldn't send players to MU.

[jesmu84]

Oh goodness. Was the master plan by Larry/Pilarz to bring him back?

Didn't Crean have some difficulty recruiting Wisconsin because of his relationship with AAU and high school coaches at the end? He got Christopherson, but I thought I remember he ticked a lot of coaches off and they wouldn't send players to MU.

From what I've heard around Indy, the same thing happened at IU

[Silkk the Shaka]

From what I've heard around Indy, the same thing happened at IU

Yup. In no uncertain terms: Crean sucks

[brewcity77]

IMO this is simple.  Tom Crean is a good coach. 

But Tom Crean isn't a great coach.  Without one of the best players in the history of basketball, he's not making a Final Four.

Tom Crean could take over a SLU-like A10-type program and be there for years.

Agreed. Honestly, I think he'd be a great fit to trade places with Miller. I could see him staying at Dayton for 15-20 years and having a ton of success.

Maybe Miller kills it at IU. Maybe he returns them to blue blood status. But acting like he's a better candidate than Crean was is just silly. If I'm an IU fan, I'm incredibly underwhelmed by this hire.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Agreed. Honestly, I think he'd be a great fit to trade places with Miller. I could see him staying at Dayton for 15-20 years and having a ton of success.

Maybe Miller kills it at IU. Maybe he returns them to blue blood status. But acting like he's a better candidate than Crean was is just silly. If I'm an IU fan, I'm incredibly underwhelmed by this hire.

Every IU fan I work with (5 closely, a few others more tangentially) is ecstatic. They view it as a huge upgrade, for all the reasons I laid out.

[Golden Avalanche]

Yup. In no uncertain terms: Crean sucks

Won a Championship in two conferences. Won Coach of the Year in two conferences. Made a few Sweet 16s. Has a Final Four ring.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Won a Championship in two conferences. Won Coach of the Year in two conferences. Made a few Sweet 16s. Has a Final Four ring.

His ceiling is lower than acceptable for a blue blood and he was shown the door as a result. Dude sucks.

[GGGG]

His ceiling is lower than acceptable for a blue blood and he was shown the door as a result. Dude sucks.

No he doesn't "suck."  Hyperbole doesn't help you.  He is a good coach.

His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood.  There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.

[Tugg Speedman]

According to your specific, backward-looking metrics, maybe you're right.

One thing Archie does not have a reputation for, however, is possessing the personality of a complete tool.

Butler, ND, and Purdue have shown you can be highly & consistently successful if you can recruit Indiana high schools well. Hell, even Crean with Zeller and that early crew proved that. However, he proved himself time and time again to be entirely off-putting to the very people he needed to be tight with. Found himself shut out of the Indiana HS circuity completely. Archie's no phony, and he's no idiot. You immediately establish those relationships with a sense of mutual respect, and the talent will flow like the salmon of Capistrano. And he can be picky with how that talent fits with roster complexion and the system he wants to run, too. That's one thing, regardless of recruiting class rankings, that I thought Crean was very poor at.

Sometimes cultural fit is just as important as (if not more important than) what the metrics say. On metrics, I'd say they're a push. Culturally, Archie wins in a landslide. People actually like him. Crean's ultimate demise was/is that he's an insufferable human being that overcompensates with arrogance and buffoonery. Plain and simple.

Crean is hardly the first and only tool to coach a college basketball team.  And I'll bet he is not even the biggest tool to coach at IU (Knight).  He might not be the second biggest tool (Sampson).

We all know that coaches get fired for one reason, they fail to preform on the court.  No one cares if you piss off all the high school and AAU coaches in your state if you constantly have top 10 teams.  Those coaches don't run your program.

Oh wait, Crean did deliver top 10 teams.  He did last year and he did this year. But That's was not good enough.

IU still thinks they are Kentucky.  They still think they should be penciled in for the FF every year. That's what Crean did wrong.

If Archie delivers regular FFcaliber teams, it's because IU got lucky, not that his resume suggests he's the next Bill Self. 

That said, I agree Archie is a good coach, he will have them ranked and they will regularly get bids.  In other words, Crean type results ... which is not bad!!

But the faithful in Bloomington will think this is failure.

[wadesworld]

IU fans don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they.  What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton.  DAYTON!  He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!

IU fans should be thrilled.  Archie is a great fit for IU.  WAY better than had they hired Alford.  They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas.  This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.

[mu-rara]

Upside ta Miller is infinitely grater. T-Cube had maxed out and shot his load at MU, hey?

Miller is recruiting to I4 now.  Don't underestimate that, as opposed to UD.

[cheebs09]

I think searches the last few years have shown caches in good situations aren't as willing to leave. Alford at UCLA is pretty underwhelming for a program of their level. I like the Archie hire, but as others have said, Crean had a better resume when he was hired. It doesn't seem like many P-6 coaches are really leaving their jobs unless they are close to being fired or issues with the administration. Even coaches in good mid-major situations are becoming more picky.

I wonder if Crean would go to Indiana if he had the same choice. Seeing as how coaches have a large amount of confidence, I think he would. However, if Crean has the same type of tenure at MU as he did at IU (taking out the rebuilding years), is his seat even warm? I think with TV and all the money conferences are making for the schools, high major coaches will stay at their schools and not feel the need to jump to traditional powerhouses.

[4everwarriors]

Look up "sucks" in da dictionary. Ders a headshot of Crean starin' right der at ja, ai na?

[Silkk the Shaka]

No he doesn't "suck."  Hyperbole doesn't help you.  He is a good coach.

His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood.  There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.

I mean as a guy, he sucks.

[GooooMarquette]

No he doesn't "suck."  Hyperbole doesn't help you.  He is a good coach.

His ceiling is definitely too low for a blue blood.  There has been more than a significant number of seasons to show that.

Yep.  Good, but just not good enough for IU's standards.  He might have been able to finish his career at MU by getting to the dance regularly and an occasional S16 or E8, and he probably could have a good career at a place like Dayton. 

[GooooMarquette]

I mean as a guy, he sucks.

OK, that I can buy.....

[Silkk the Shaka]

Crean is hardly the first and only tool to coach a college basketball team.  And I'll bet he is not even the biggest tool to coach at IU (Knight).  He might not be the second biggest tool (Sampson).

We all know that coaches get fired for one reason, they fail to preform on the court.  No one cares if you piss off all the high school and AAU coaches in your state if you constantly have top 10 teams.  Those coaches don't run your program.

Oh wait, Crean did deliver top 10 teams.  He did last year and he did this year. But That's was not good enough.

IU still thinks they are Kentucky.  They still think they should be penciled in for the FF every year. That's what Crean did wrong.

If Archie delivers regular FFcaliber teams, it's because IU got lucky, not that his resume suggests he's the next Bill Self. 

That said, I agree Archie is a good coach, he will have them ranked and they will regularly get bids.  In other words, Crean type results ... which is not bad!!

But the faithful in Bloomington will think this is failure.

No. What Crean did wrong was get himself blackballed by Indiana HS coaches with a combination of condescension and revealing his lack of knowledge of the game over time.

As long as you're winning, it doesn't matter where the kids come from. But if you lose, you better be losing with Indiana kids, especially when all the other HM programs in the state are stacked with them and show up in the tourney year after year with some deep runs mixed in.

It's not Kentucky they're mad they aren't. It's Butler/ND/Purdue he underperformed without Indiana HS kids on the roster and none in the pipeline. That's what did him in.

[MU82]

IU don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they.  What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton.  DAYTON!  He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!

IU fans should be thrilled.  Archie is a great fit for IU.  WAY better than had they hired Alford.  They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas.  This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.

Agreed.

[B. McBannerson]

Miller is recruiting to I4 now.  Don't underestimate that, as opposed to UD.

Good point.  Of course, at UD he didn't have to contend with a Michigan State, Ohio State, Minnesota, Wisconsin or the rest of the Big Ten. Everyone is recruiting major talent. Some coaches jump from mid major to high major and can't process how to handle the egos, or the 5* kids that are one and done.  Don't understimate that.

[Tugg Speedman]

No. What Crean did wrong was get himself blackballed by Indiana HS coaches with a combination of condescension and revealing his lack of knowledge of the game over time.

As long as you're winning, it doesn't matter where the kids come from. But if you lose, you better be losing with Indiana kids, especially when all the other HM programs in the state are stacked with them and show up in the tourney year after year with some deep runs mixed in.

It's not Kentucky they're mad they aren't. It's Butler/ND/Purdue he underperformed without Indiana HS kids on the roster and none in the pipeline. That's what did him in.

How, when did he underperform Butler/ND/Purdue?  The last 90 days?  IU was top 5 in December before injuries, top 10 and S16 last year and #1 in 2013. I don't see it.

He was fired about unrealistic expectations, and that is the same reason they will fire Archie in 5 to 7 years.

They are no longer elite and their belief they are is what motivates them.

[brewcity77]

IU fans don't give a damn what Crean did at MU, nor should they.  What they see is Archie has consistently won at Dayton.  DAYTON!  He took DAYTON further in the NCAA Tournament than Tom Crean took INDIANA!

IU fans should be thrilled.  Archie is a great fit for IU.  WAY better than had they hired Alford.  They weren't going to get a Bill Self away from Kansas.  This is the best hire they could've reasonably made.

And that could be their logic, but he really didn't do much more that previous Dayton coaches did there. I don't see them beating a path to Oliver Purnell's door.

[wadesworld]

And that could be their logic, but he really didn't do much more that previous Dayton coaches did there. I don't see them beating a path to Oliver Purnell's door.

One guy had 6 NCAA Tournament wins in 6 seasons, the other had 0 NCAA Tournament wins in 9 years...