Baylor Scandal

[brandx]

Is there anyone on this board who does no think that Baylor should get the death penalty on this one.?

It certainly is much, much worse than the scandal at sMU that resulted in the death penalty.

Women's BB coach Kim Mulkey really sealed the deal this weekend by threatening parents who shy away from Baylor because of the scandal.

The coach shared a few choice words for parents voicing concern over sending their daughters to a place currently being sued for allowing and enabling football players to commit an alleged 52 sexual assaults in four years. Or rather, she shared some instructions for the fans—who cheered her both during and after her speech—telling them that if a parent tells them they won’t let their daughter attend Baylor, they should “knock them right in the face.”

What kind of human being thinks it is alright to sexually assault women? These are the dregs of society and should be treated as such.

I think all sports at Baylor should be suspended immediately and indefinitely.

The "funniest" part of this? The 1st seven words on their website are Baylor University is a private Christian university.

Maybe it is time to get the christians out of Baylor - along with the rapist and rapist apologists.

[forgetful]

They should get the death penalty for sure.  It won't happen though.

The Baylor scandal though is good news for Louisville and UNC, that look like pillars of morality compared to Baylor.

[GGGG]

The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?  The NCAA is really a poor organization to be the arbiter of justice in a case like this.

[mu03eng]

The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?  The NCAA is really a poor organization to be the arbiter of justice in a case like this.

The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?

[GGGG]

The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?

The problem is they overplayed their hand at Penn State.  The NCAA started rolling back those sanctions about a year after they were levied because people thought they were too severe. 

This is a case where the accreditation body or the federal government via Title IX needs to be more proactive.  Not the NCAA.

[mu03eng]

The problem is they overplayed their hand at Penn State.  The NCAA started rolling back those sanctions about a year after they were levied because people thought they were too severe. 

This is a case where the accreditation body or the federal government via Title IX needs to be more proactive.  Not the NCAA.

I don't disagree with any of that, however the NCAA stepped in citing the moral authority to do so.....if ever they had a clear cut "moral" authority to do so it's here. It just shows the NCAA isn't anything but a money laundering and political lobbying organization.

[tower912]

I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?

[MerrittsMustache]

I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?

It did. Here's a photo...

[Benny B]

I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?

Pretty soon.  Which is why UNC-Asheville is sweating bullets right now.

[Benny B]

Is there anyone on this board who does no think that Baylor should get the death penalty on this one.?

It certainly is much, much worse than the scandal at sMU that resulted in the death penalty.

Women's BB coach Kim Mulkey really sealed the deal this weekend by threatening parents who shy away from Baylor because of the scandal.

The coach shared a few choice words for parents voicing concern over sending their daughters to a place currently being sued for allowing and enabling football players to commit an alleged 52 sexual assaults in four years. Or rather, she shared some instructions for the fans—who cheered her both during and after her speech—telling them that if a parent tells them they won’t let their daughter attend Baylor, they should “knock them right in the face.”

What kind of human being thinks it is alright to sexually assault women? These are the dregs of society and should be treated as such.

I think all sports at Baylor should be suspended immediately and indefinitely.

The "funniest" part of this? The 1st seven words on their website are Baylor University is a private Christian university.

Maybe it is time to get the christians out of Baylor - along with the rapist and rapist apologists.

You were making a pretty decent argument until you had to bring up the Christian side of things.  [Canadian] irony is not a multiplier in the eyes of the law... whether you're a Christian rapist or an atheist rapist, you are subject to the same set of laws and punishments.

What you have done by introducing the Christian angle, however, is weaken your argument by showing an agenda.  Further,  you also give the impression that have an ax to grind against Christians as a whole, as Baylor - more specifically - is a private, Baptist university, yet you lump a much larger group into your accused apologists by qualifying it as Christian instead.  Why not just point fingers at everyone and say it's a 4-year college or university?  Better yet, just call Baylor a "Earth place of education."  Then you can blame anyone who ever went to a school anywhere... that should get you some good attention for your cause, no?

In other words, I can't tell if you're really upset about what happened (and is happening) at Baylor, or if you're just using the scandal as a one-off excuse to denigrate religion (and/or those who hold religious beliefs).

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

You were making a pretty decent argument until you had to bring up the Christian side of things.  [Canadian] irony is not a multiplier in the eyes of the law... whether you're a Christian rapist or an atheist rapist, you are subject to the same set of laws and punishments.

What you have done by introducing the Christian angle, however, is weaken your argument by showing an agenda.  Further,  you also give the impression that have an ax to grind against Christians as a whole, as Baylor - more specifically - is a private, Baptist university, yet you lump a much larger group into your accused apologists by qualifying it as Christian instead.  Why not just point fingers at everyone and say it's a 4-year college or university?  Better yet, just call Baylor a "Earth place of education."  Then you can blame anyone who ever went to a school anywhere... that should get you some good attention for your cause, no?

In other words, I can't tell if you're really upset about what happened (and is happening) at Baylor, or if you're just using the scandal as a one-off excuse to denigrate religion (and/or those who hold religious beliefs).

I really think you misunderstood his point. I thought he meant along the lines of, how can you claim yourself to be a christian university and hold yourself to a higher moral standard when crap like this goes on. Sorry for speaking for you brandx if im wrong in this assumption.

[Benny B]

I really think you misunderstood his point. I thought he meant along the lines of, how can you claim yourself to be a christian university and hold yourself to a higher moral standard when crap like this goes on. Sorry for speaking for you brandx if im wrong in this assumption.

That's ridiculous.  So you'd have no problem with the whole situation if Baylor's affiliation happened to be with a religion that openly allowed the rape and/or sexual harassment of women?

At best, the "truth-in-advertising" point you and brandx are espousing is nothing more than a diversion... this is a case where a school needs to be sanctioned and people need to go to jail, period, without any regard for religious affiliation.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

That's ridiculous.  So you'd have no problem with the whole situation if Baylor's affiliation happened to be with a religion that openly allowed the rape and/or sexual harassment of women?

At best, the "truth-in-advertising" point you and brandx are espousing is nothing more than a diversion... this is a case where a school needs to be sanctioned and people need to go to jail, period, without any regard for religious affiliation.

?

You completely misunderstood my point as well mate...

I never said I condone what Baylor did, and I never implied I would be okay with it if they for whatever reason rape culture was okay.

They should be punished. I'm just saying I think Brand thought it was ironic that they touted themselves as a catholic university (as if they have a higher moral standard because of it) after the whole situation and Mulkey.

[jficke13]

I get what Benny's saying, which (I think) is something along the lines of:

"Pointing out Baylor's status as a Baptist institution does not add anything to its crimes. Its status as a Baptist institution offers nothing in aggravation or mitigation of its misdeeds. However, by pointing out its status as a Baptist institution, Brand gives the appearance of an animus against Christian institutions, which tends to act to weaken his argument by leaving that impression by making people think "oh he's just got an 'ax to grind' against Christian institutions." Why do so if it doesn't add anything to what amounts to a thorough condemnation of Baylor?"

[mu03eng]

Bottom line, Baylor's religious affiliation has nothing to do with the horrible crimes committed other than whether or not the perpetrators go to special hell after serving their human sentences or if they just die.

[brandx]

I get what Benny's saying, which (I think) is something along the lines of:

"Pointing out Baylor's status as a Baptist institution does not add anything to its crimes. Its status as a Baptist institution offers nothing in aggravation or mitigation of its misdeeds. However, by pointing out its status as a Baptist institution, Brand gives the appearance of an animus against Christian institutions, which tends to act to weaken his argument by leaving that impression by making people think "oh he's just got an 'ax to grind' against Christian institutions." Why do so if it doesn't add anything to what amounts to a thorough condemnation of Baylor?"

I understood what Benny was saying about my post. I guess someone can spin it any way that they like.

Regarding my "christian" comment:

I was raised in an evangelical church. While I no longer attend, I still consider myself a christian. However, I am appalled by the christian "community", in general, in this country right now. I think many - maybe even the majority would be shocked if they ever read the Bible or the words of Jesus.

My point in making the comment was that christians SHOULD be held to a higher moral standard. It is, after all, the basis of what they teach. Expecting them to follow the words of the Bible doesn't seem like a reach.

It makes these crimes worse ONLY in the sense that they purport to believe in morality above all else. they certainly are not practicing that.

As far as looking at the crimes themselves, they are obviously no better or worse than the same crimes committed anywhere whether at another school or on the street.

I apologize to Benny - I never mead to insult the sensitive little snowflakes among us.

To the rest, I apologize for the previous passive/aggressive sentence.

[mu03eng]

I understood what Benny was saying about my post. I guess someone can spin it any way that they like.

Regarding my "christian" comment:

I was raised in an evangelical church. While I no longer attend, I still consider myself a christian. However, I am appalled by the christian "community", in general, in this country right now. I think many - maybe even the majority would be shocked if they ever read the Bible or the words of Jesus.

My point in making the comment was that christians SHOULD be held to a higher moral standard. It is, after all, the basis of what they teach. Expecting them to follow the words of the Bible doesn't seem like a reach.

It makes these crimes worse ONLY in the sense that they purport to believe in morality above all else. they certainly are not practicing that.

As far as looking at the crimes themselves, they are obviously no better or worse than the same crimes committed anywhere whether at another school or on the street.

I apologize to Benny - I never mead to insult the sensitive little snowflakes among us.

To the rest, I apologize for the previous passive/aggressive sentence.

Not to carry this out too much further, but I think the crux of the issue is that you are singling out christians in this context. Insert any religion with a moral code in the statements, especially any of the major ones: Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, and the sentance still makes sense so there is zero reason to include it in the argument in the first place.

Separate to that, and more in line with the OP....where is the moral outrage and picketing and non-stop media coverage of this issue. The media coverage of Penn State and Paterno was endless and instant once the story broke. Why are we not seeing the same outrage and media attention? Shouldn't the media outlets, led by E$PN, be camped out on campus raging against the Baylor culture?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Chip & Joanna must be pretty upset.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?

This is unfortunately true. The NCAA as it is currently organized doesn't really have the ability to govern this. But the reality is that the NCAA is the one who could actually hit them where it hurts and deter other programs from making these same decisions. Accreditation agencies and the federal government could but they won't. A university has never actually lost accreditation or federal funding as a result of athletics abuse of Title IX despite the power being there for those bodies to do it.

Universities know that winning athletics can overcome a whole lot of scandal. North Carolina doesn't care that their academic reputation took a hit because those fakes classes gave them a competitive advantage in athletics. It won't be admitted in the public, but Baylor will take the scandal if it meant giving them the great success they have had in the past 10 years (there are other scandals in that department....dirtiest in the NCAA).

If the NCAA were to have the authority to step in on these cases, they could punish athletic programs. If athletics were suddenly at risk, you would never see the kind of crap we have at Penn State, Baylor, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. None of them would be willing to risk the athletic department to save individual athletes.

Most universities have a catch all student rule that states if a student violates state or federal law that they are subject to immediate expulsion. This is overly simplified but I always thought the NCAA could use a similar rule. If a university violates a federal law to benefit its athletic program, they are subject to sanctions from the NCAA.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?

I do think popular opinion would be more supportive of sanctions against Baylor than they were against Penn State. Not that it should be a factor.

[Babybluejeans]

So, Kim Mulkey thinks that the appropriate response to families legitimately concerned about sexual assault on Baylor's campus is...assault those families. Got it.

Also, not sure why people are jumping on brandx about an innocuous Christian-school comment. The SCHOOL, not other people, chose to single itself out as Christian. And that being the case, there's rich irony in a self-identified religious institution openly cheering on Mulkey's comments.

[Benny B]

So, Kim Mulkey thinks that the appropriate response to families legitimately concerned about sexual assault on Baylor's campus is...assault those families. Got it.

Also, not sure why people are jumping on brandx about an innocuous Christian-school comment. The SCHOOL, not other people, chose to single itself out as Christian. And that being the case, there's rich irony in a self-identified religious institution openly cheering on Mulkey's comments.

Not people.  Me.  I'm the only one jumping on Brandx because I believe sexual harassment, assault and rape are plagues on our society.  If you want to be funny, crack a joke.  But when you polarize the issue by pointing a finger of hatred (whether veiled in irony or not) at others it not only trivializes the issue but is counterproductive for those of us who want those plagues to end.

[Babybluejeans]

Not people.  Me.  I'm the only one jumping on Brandx because I believe sexual harassment, assault and rape are plagues on our society.  If you want to be funny, crack a joke.  But when you polarize the issue by pointing a finger of hatred (whether veiled in irony or not) at others it not only trivializes the issue but is counterproductive for those of us who want those plagues to end.

I agree that someone trivialized the issue but it wasn't brandx. You've misinterpreted whose hand the "finger of hatred" (!) is attached to.

[brandx]

Not to carry this out too much further, but I think the crux of the issue is that you are singling out christians in this context. Insert any religion with a moral code in the statements, especially any of the major ones: Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, and the sentance still makes sense so there is zero reason to include it in the argument in the first place.

That is a reasonable take on my comments.

[brandx]

This is unfortunately true. The NCAA as it is currently organized doesn't really have the ability to govern this. But the reality is that the NCAA is the one who could actually hit them where it hurts and deter other programs from making these same decisions. Accreditation agencies and the federal government could but they won't. A university has never actually lost accreditation or federal funding as a result of athletics abuse of Title IX despite the power being there for those bodies to do it.

Universities know that winning athletics can overcome a whole lot of scandal. North Carolina doesn't care that their academic reputation took a hit because those fakes classes gave them a competitive advantage in athletics. It won't be admitted in the public, but Baylor will take the scandal if it meant giving them the great success they have had in the past 10 years (there are other scandals in that department....dirtiest in the NCAA).

If the NCAA were to have the authority to step in on these cases, they could punish athletic programs. If athletics were suddenly at risk, you would never see the kind of crap we have at Penn State, Baylor, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. None of them would be willing to risk the athletic department to save individual athletes.

Most universities have a catch all student rule that states if a student violates state or federal law that they are subject to immediate expulsion. This is overly simplified but I always thought the NCAA could use a similar rule. If a university violates a federal law to benefit its athletic program, they are subject to sanctions from the NCAA.

You're probably right, TAMU.

But does there really need to be a rule about covering up rape? What a sad state of affairs when a school looks the other way over a heinous, violent crime because "there isn't a rule". Shouldn't human decency prevail?