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Author Topic: Baylor Scandal  (Read 11581 times)

buckchuckler

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2017, 08:30:19 PM »

How do you know that the dog fighting wasn't consensual?

Are equating the cognitive and reasoning abilities of the hostesses and the dogs?

warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »
Are equating the cognitive and reasoning abilities of the hostesses and the dogs?

Certainly the reasoning abilities.
Have some patience, FFS.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2017, 11:13:20 PM »
If the "sexual contact" were consensual - admittedly I don't know, but I'm presuming the "hostesses" are "independent contractors" and not actual students on work-study grants - why would dogfighting not be the more serious offense?

I can't speak for her but I assume Chick meant sexual assault in general not hostesses sleeping with recruits.

Hostess programs are usually recognized student organizations. Students are not usually paid but they do receive incentives to become hostesses. Some even go so far as to offer free or discounted housing and scholarships.

A hostess having consensual sex with a recruit is fine from a legal and conduct prescriptive (assuming the ages of the two individuals are within the law, keep in mind, these are high school students). It might be an NCAA violation, honestly not sure. The problem becomes if the sex is truly consensual. There have been cases where a recruit assumes the hostess is there for his pleasure (usually because of experience on other recruiting trips) and takes advantage. These cases are few and far between (though I would imagine that they would be incredibly underreported so its hard to say that for sure). The more common kind of case is that the hostesses are pressured and coerced by the other hostesses or sometimes even university staff to have sex with the recruits. This becomes an amazingly messy situation. It is for sure a hazing violation that needs to be addressed and the other students and staff can and should be held accountable. But what do you do with the recruit? If the hostess was pressured, but not by the recruit, how can you hold them accountable? Should you hold them accountable? Depends on the facts of the case. If the hostess initiates and gives no outward sign of duress, I don't think the recruit is at fault. If the hostess "consents" but is in tears, different story.

Hostess programs are a tradition I would love to see die out. There's just too much potential for abuse. When they are recruiting young women to be hostesses, they aren't advertising it as "come have sex with high school students that our football team is recruiting!" But once they are in the program, there can be tremendous amounts of pressure to do just that. Add in that you might be relying on the scholarship or housing that came with the program? All of the sudden its "have sex with this player or we will evict you and take away your money."

This isn't to say that all hostess programs are bad. I am sure there are many, maybe even most, that are completely above board. I've been fortunate enough not to handle any cases with our hostess team here at TAMU. But I have heard several from colleagues at other schools. There was a recent one at a P5 school where a university employee was forcing hostesses to pose in bikinis at parties hosted by the football team with recruits present. He then tried to kick members who refused out for "failing to make mandatory events."

Anyway, there's my rant on hostess programs. Well part of it. I could on even longer. My main point in bringing up the hostess program at Baylor is that it might "open the door" so to speak for the NCAA and give them the jurisdiction they are trying to say they don't have.
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2017, 08:34:56 AM »

How do you know that the dog fighting wasn't consensual?

"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2017, 10:49:19 AM »
I can't speak for her but I assume Chick meant sexual assault in general not hostesses sleeping with recruits.

Hostess programs are usually recognized student organizations. Students are not usually paid but they do receive incentives to become hostesses. Some even go so far as to offer free or discounted housing and scholarships.

A hostess having consensual sex with a recruit is fine from a legal and conduct prescriptive (assuming the ages of the two individuals are within the law, keep in mind, these are high school students). It might be an NCAA violation, honestly not sure. The problem becomes if the sex is truly consensual. There have been cases where a recruit assumes the hostess is there for his pleasure (usually because of experience on other recruiting trips) and takes advantage. These cases are few and far between (though I would imagine that they would be incredibly underreported so its hard to say that for sure). The more common kind of case is that the hostesses are pressured and coerced by the other hostesses or sometimes even university staff to have sex with the recruits. This becomes an amazingly messy situation. It is for sure a hazing violation that needs to be addressed and the other students and staff can and should be held accountable. But what do you do with the recruit? If the hostess was pressured, but not by the recruit, how can you hold them accountable? Should you hold them accountable? Depends on the facts of the case. If the hostess initiates and gives no outward sign of duress, I don't think the recruit is at fault. If the hostess "consents" but is in tears, different story.

Hostess programs are a tradition I would love to see die out. There's just too much potential for abuse. When they are recruiting young women to be hostesses, they aren't advertising it as "come have sex with high school students that our football team is recruiting!" But once they are in the program, there can be tremendous amounts of pressure to do just that. Add in that you might be relying on the scholarship or housing that came with the program? All of the sudden its "have sex with this player or we will evict you and take away your money."

This isn't to say that all hostess programs are bad. I am sure there are many, maybe even most, that are completely above board. I've been fortunate enough not to handle any cases with our hostess team here at TAMU. But I have heard several from colleagues at other schools. There was a recent one at a P5 school where a university employee was forcing hostesses to pose in bikinis at parties hosted by the football team with recruits present. He then tried to kick members who refused out for "failing to make mandatory events."

Anyway, there's my rant on hostess programs. Well part of it. I could on even longer. My main point in bringing up the hostess program at Baylor is that it might "open the door" so to speak for the NCAA and give them the jurisdiction they are trying to say they don't have.

Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Jockey

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2017, 12:39:31 PM »
Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.

You are just so naive, Benny.

For a lot of parents, winning games is much more important than the well-being of their daughters.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2017, 01:16:29 PM »
Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.

Like I said,  many hostess programs are completely above board. I think every parent of a hostess tells themselves that their daughter is in one is the good ones.  But if being a hostess is truly just about helping recruits learn about campus life.... Why are all hostesses skinny,  attractive women? Even if hostesses aren't being pressured to have sex with recruits,  it's still a shallow attempt to try and sell a player on sex.
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Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2017, 02:25:58 PM »
Like I said,  many hostess programs are completely above board. I think every parent of a hostess tells themselves that their daughter is in one is the good ones.  But if being a hostess is truly just about helping recruits learn about campus life.... Why are all hostesses skinny,  attractive women? Even if hostesses aren't being pressured to have sex with recruits,  it's still a shallow attempt to try and sell a player on sex.

Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2017, 02:42:31 PM »
Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?

100%

And if it's really about campus life, why are they women at all? Men can't learn about campus life from other men?

The hostess program, on it's face is a farce and I see no reason they should continue for any reason.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2017, 02:49:18 PM »
Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?

Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?
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warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2017, 02:54:10 PM »
Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?

I am going to take exception to lumping in cheerleaders and dance teams. At least they have to have some actual athletic talent. A hostess just needs to "be nice to the recruits"  wink, wink.
Have some patience, FFS.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2017, 03:02:34 PM »
Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?

Interesting question.

A very good friend of ours was a "pommie" in high school (dance team basically) and she will claim to her dying day that it's a legitimate sport and is very proud that they won state or conference or whatever. I, of course, take great pleasure in dropping references to how it's not a sport.

Anywho, here's the thing, is it a sport that exploits women....or is it an event that exploits women that was turned into a sport.....or is that a difference without a distinction? More over, let's say we eliminate dance or cheerleading teams, what do we do with the women who lose the scholarship opportunity as a result of canceling their sport?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2017, 03:02:58 PM »
I am going to take exception to lumping in cheerleaders and dance teams. At least they have to have some actual athletic talent. A hostess just needs to "be nice to the recruits"  wink, wink.

Yes, but if cheerleading and dance team were about athletic talent,  then they wouldn't be almost exclusively made up of attractive women who almost always perform in revealing and sexualized outfits. Again,  I don't think that's the fault of the cheerleaders and dancers... but a greater societal issue. 
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2017, 03:08:21 PM »
Yes, but if cheerleading and dance team were about athletic talent,  then they wouldn't be almost exclusively made up of attractive women who almost always perform in revealing and sexualized outfits. Again,  I don't think that's the fault of the cheerleaders and dancers... but a greater societal issue.

So I'll mark you down as not of fan of Intensity(is MU's dance team still called that?)
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2017, 03:11:41 PM »
Interesting question.

A very good friend of ours was a "pommie" in high school (dance team basically) and she will claim to her dying day that it's a legitimate sport and is very proud that they won state or conference or whatever. I, of course, take great pleasure in dropping references to how it's not a sport.

Anywho, here's the thing, is it a sport that exploits women....or is it an event that exploits women that was turned into a sport.....or is that a difference without a distinction? More over, let's say we eliminate dance or cheerleading teams, what do we do with the women who lose the scholarship opportunity as a result of canceling their sport?

Personally,  I think the best outcome is for dancers and cheerleaders to actually be valued for dancing and cheerleading. Don't make decisions about whose on the team based on looks and gender. Make it based on their actual ability.  Unfortunately,  I think a lot of fans would take issue with men with pom poms and "uggo" dancers. And they are the ones with the money.  Same thing with hostesses. Make it about who can genuinely make a player feel welcome on campus instead of seducing a player into liking the campus.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2017, 03:15:43 PM »
So I'll mark you down as not of fan of Intensity(is MU's dance team still called that?)

I'm not.  But that's because SEC dance teams are on all whole other level. I'm a fan of dance teams,  it's just sad that in order to do what they love they must play the role of sexual object.
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2017, 03:20:34 PM »
I'm not.  But that's because SEC dance teams are on all whole other level. I'm a fan of dance teams,  it's just sad that in order to do what they love they must play the role of sexual object.

I'm not a fan because they aren't good IMHO. I absolutely can't dance, but as an entertainment option during the games it's a total meh.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2017, 03:22:54 PM »
Personally,  I think the best outcome is for dancers and cheerleaders to actually be valued for dancing and cheerleading. Don't make decisions about whose on the team based on looks and gender. Make it based on their actual ability.  Unfortunately,  I think a lot of fans would take issue with men with pom poms and "uggo" dancers. And they are the ones with the money.  Same thing with hostesses. Make it about who can genuinely make a player feel welcome on campus instead of seducing a player into liking the campus.

Isn't it inevitable that if you are a very good dancer that you are going to be close to the cultural norm of "good looking" if for no other reason than you are fit because of all that working out?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2017, 03:32:12 PM »
Isn't it inevitable that if you are a very good dancer that you are going to be close to the cultural norm of "good looking" if for no other reason than you are fit because of all that working out?

To an extent. But you've never met someone who is totally fit but a face only a mother could love? I mean, look at Sam Cassell, athlete in the top 1% of his sport, not winning any beauty competitions any time soon. There's also the question of male dancers as well. Why can't men be on dance teams or be using the pom poms?
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4everwarriors

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2017, 07:56:19 PM »
Is it ok if a girl wants to be considered a sex object, hey?
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2017, 08:30:27 PM »
Is it ok if a girl wants to be considered a sex object, hey?

Theoretically. The problem is that the choice is usually made for them.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 08:33:09 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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