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Author Topic: Baylor Scandal  (Read 11573 times)

brandx

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Baylor Scandal
« on: February 27, 2017, 10:32:28 PM »
Is there anyone on this board who does no think that Baylor should get the death penalty on this one.?

It certainly is much, much worse than the scandal at sMU that resulted in the death penalty.

Women's BB coach Kim Mulkey really sealed the deal this weekend by threatening parents who shy away from Baylor because of the scandal.

The coach shared a few choice words for parents voicing concern over sending their daughters to a place currently being sued for allowing and enabling football players to commit an alleged 52 sexual assaults in four years. Or rather, she shared some instructions for the fans—who cheered her both during and after her speech—telling them that if a parent tells them they won’t let their daughter attend Baylor, they should “knock them right in the face.”

What kind of human being thinks it is alright to sexually assault women? These are the dregs of society and should be treated as such.

I think all sports at Baylor should be suspended immediately and indefinitely.

The "funniest" part of this? The 1st seven words on their website are Baylor University is a private Christian university.

Maybe it is time to get the christians out of Baylor - along with the rapist and rapist apologists.

forgetful

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2017, 10:58:55 PM »
They should get the death penalty for sure.  It won't happen though.

The Baylor scandal though is good news for Louisville and UNC, that look like pillars of morality compared to Baylor.


GGGG

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2017, 07:10:08 AM »
The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?  The NCAA is really a poor organization to be the arbiter of justice in a case like this.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2017, 08:05:57 AM »
The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?  The NCAA is really a poor organization to be the arbiter of justice in a case like this.

The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

GGGG

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2017, 08:10:59 AM »
The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?


The problem is they overplayed their hand at Penn State.  The NCAA started rolling back those sanctions about a year after they were levied because people thought they were too severe. 

This is a case where the accreditation body or the federal government via Title IX needs to be more proactive.  Not the NCAA.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2017, 08:33:43 AM »

The problem is they overplayed their hand at Penn State.  The NCAA started rolling back those sanctions about a year after they were levied because people thought they were too severe. 

This is a case where the accreditation body or the federal government via Title IX needs to be more proactive.  Not the NCAA.

I don't disagree with any of that, however the NCAA stepped in citing the moral authority to do so.....if ever they had a clear cut "moral" authority to do so it's here. It just shows the NCAA isn't anything but a money laundering and political lobbying organization.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

tower912

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2017, 08:37:14 AM »
I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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MerrittsMustache

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2017, 08:40:22 AM »
I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?

It did. Here's a photo...




Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 09:39:54 AM »
I'm sure they will punish Abilene Christian.    Say, when is the UNC hammer finally going to drop?

Pretty soon.  Which is why UNC-Asheville is sweating bullets right now.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 09:59:24 AM »
Is there anyone on this board who does no think that Baylor should get the death penalty on this one.?

It certainly is much, much worse than the scandal at sMU that resulted in the death penalty.

Women's BB coach Kim Mulkey really sealed the deal this weekend by threatening parents who shy away from Baylor because of the scandal.

The coach shared a few choice words for parents voicing concern over sending their daughters to a place currently being sued for allowing and enabling football players to commit an alleged 52 sexual assaults in four years. Or rather, she shared some instructions for the fans—who cheered her both during and after her speech—telling them that if a parent tells them they won’t let their daughter attend Baylor, they should “knock them right in the face.”

What kind of human being thinks it is alright to sexually assault women? These are the dregs of society and should be treated as such.

I think all sports at Baylor should be suspended immediately and indefinitely.

The "funniest" part of this? The 1st seven words on their website are Baylor University is a private Christian university.

Maybe it is time to get the christians out of Baylor - along with the rapist and rapist apologists.

You were making a pretty decent argument until you had to bring up the Christian side of things.  [Canadian] irony is not a multiplier in the eyes of the law... whether you're a Christian rapist or an atheist rapist, you are subject to the same set of laws and punishments.

What you have done by introducing the Christian angle, however, is weaken your argument by showing an agenda.  Further,  you also give the impression that have an ax to grind against Christians as a whole, as Baylor - more specifically - is a private, Baptist university, yet you lump a much larger group into your accused apologists by qualifying it as Christian instead.  Why not just point fingers at everyone and say it's a 4-year college or university?  Better yet, just call Baylor a "Earth place of education."  Then you can blame anyone who ever went to a school anywhere... that should get you some good attention for your cause, no?

In other words, I can't tell if you're really upset about what happened (and is happening) at Baylor, or if you're just using the scandal as a one-off excuse to denigrate religion (and/or those who hold religious beliefs).
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 10:24:03 AM »
You were making a pretty decent argument until you had to bring up the Christian side of things.  [Canadian] irony is not a multiplier in the eyes of the law... whether you're a Christian rapist or an atheist rapist, you are subject to the same set of laws and punishments.

What you have done by introducing the Christian angle, however, is weaken your argument by showing an agenda.  Further,  you also give the impression that have an ax to grind against Christians as a whole, as Baylor - more specifically - is a private, Baptist university, yet you lump a much larger group into your accused apologists by qualifying it as Christian instead.  Why not just point fingers at everyone and say it's a 4-year college or university?  Better yet, just call Baylor a "Earth place of education."  Then you can blame anyone who ever went to a school anywhere... that should get you some good attention for your cause, no?

In other words, I can't tell if you're really upset about what happened (and is happening) at Baylor, or if you're just using the scandal as a one-off excuse to denigrate religion (and/or those who hold religious beliefs).

I really think you misunderstood his point. I thought he meant along the lines of, how can you claim yourself to be a christian university and hold yourself to a higher moral standard when crap like this goes on. Sorry for speaking for you brandx if im wrong in this assumption.

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 10:51:21 AM »
I really think you misunderstood his point. I thought he meant along the lines of, how can you claim yourself to be a christian university and hold yourself to a higher moral standard when crap like this goes on. Sorry for speaking for you brandx if im wrong in this assumption.

That's ridiculous.  So you'd have no problem with the whole situation if Baylor's affiliation happened to be with a religion that openly allowed the rape and/or sexual harassment of women?

At best, the "truth-in-advertising" point you and brandx are espousing is nothing more than a diversion... this is a case where a school needs to be sanctioned and people need to go to jail, period, without any regard for religious affiliation.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 12:18:35 PM »
That's ridiculous.  So you'd have no problem with the whole situation if Baylor's affiliation happened to be with a religion that openly allowed the rape and/or sexual harassment of women?

At best, the "truth-in-advertising" point you and brandx are espousing is nothing more than a diversion... this is a case where a school needs to be sanctioned and people need to go to jail, period, without any regard for religious affiliation.

?

You completely misunderstood my point as well mate...

I never said I condone what Baylor did, and I never implied I would be okay with it if they for whatever reason rape culture was okay.

They should be punished. I'm just saying I think Brand thought it was ironic that they touted themselves as a catholic university (as if they have a higher moral standard because of it) after the whole situation and Mulkey.

jficke13

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 12:43:52 PM »
I get what Benny's saying, which (I think) is something along the lines of:

"Pointing out Baylor's status as a Baptist institution does not add anything to its crimes. Its status as a Baptist institution offers nothing in aggravation or mitigation of its misdeeds. However, by pointing out its status as a Baptist institution, Brand gives the appearance of an animus against Christian institutions, which tends to act to weaken his argument by leaving that impression by making people think "oh he's just got an 'ax to grind' against Christian institutions." Why do so if it doesn't add anything to what amounts to a thorough condemnation of Baylor?"

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2017, 01:01:18 PM »
Bottom line, Baylor's religious affiliation has nothing to do with the horrible crimes committed other than whether or not the perpetrators go to special hell after serving their human sentences or if they just die.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 01:31:56 PM »
I get what Benny's saying, which (I think) is something along the lines of:

"Pointing out Baylor's status as a Baptist institution does not add anything to its crimes. Its status as a Baptist institution offers nothing in aggravation or mitigation of its misdeeds. However, by pointing out its status as a Baptist institution, Brand gives the appearance of an animus against Christian institutions, which tends to act to weaken his argument by leaving that impression by making people think "oh he's just got an 'ax to grind' against Christian institutions." Why do so if it doesn't add anything to what amounts to a thorough condemnation of Baylor?"

I understood what Benny was saying about my post. I guess someone can spin it any way that they like.

Regarding my "christian" comment:

I was raised in an evangelical church. While I no longer attend, I still consider myself a christian. However, I am appalled by the christian "community", in general, in this country right now. I think many - maybe even the majority would be shocked if they ever read the Bible or the words of Jesus.

My point in making the comment was that christians SHOULD be held to a higher moral standard. It is, after all, the basis of what they teach. Expecting them to follow the words of the Bible doesn't seem like a reach.

It makes these crimes worse ONLY in the sense that they purport to believe in morality above all else. they certainly are not practicing that.

As far as looking at the crimes themselves, they are obviously no better or worse than the same crimes committed anywhere whether at another school or on the street.

I apologize to Benny - I never mead to insult the sensitive little snowflakes among us. ;D

To the rest, I apologize for the previous passive/aggressive sentence.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 01:55:06 PM »
I understood what Benny was saying about my post. I guess someone can spin it any way that they like.

Regarding my "christian" comment:

I was raised in an evangelical church. While I no longer attend, I still consider myself a christian. However, I am appalled by the christian "community", in general, in this country right now. I think many - maybe even the majority would be shocked if they ever read the Bible or the words of Jesus.

My point in making the comment was that christians SHOULD be held to a higher moral standard. It is, after all, the basis of what they teach. Expecting them to follow the words of the Bible doesn't seem like a reach.

It makes these crimes worse ONLY in the sense that they purport to believe in morality above all else. they certainly are not practicing that.

As far as looking at the crimes themselves, they are obviously no better or worse than the same crimes committed anywhere whether at another school or on the street.

I apologize to Benny - I never mead to insult the sensitive little snowflakes among us. ;D

To the rest, I apologize for the previous passive/aggressive sentence.

Not to carry this out too much further, but I think the crux of the issue is that you are singling out christians in this context. Insert any religion with a moral code in the statements, especially any of the major ones: Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, and the sentance still makes sense so there is zero reason to include it in the argument in the first place.

Separate to that, and more in line with the OP....where is the moral outrage and picketing and non-stop media coverage of this issue. The media coverage of Penn State and Paterno was endless and instant once the story broke. Why are we not seeing the same outrage and media attention? Shouldn't the media outlets, led by E$PN, be camped out on campus raging against the Baylor culture?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

MU Fan in Connecticut

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 02:10:18 PM »
Chip & Joanna must be pretty upset.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2017, 02:10:46 PM »
The problem the NCAA is going to run into is the same one they did with Penn State.  What rule did they break?

This is unfortunately true. The NCAA as it is currently organized doesn't really have the ability to govern this. But the reality is that the NCAA is the one who could actually hit them where it hurts and deter other programs from making these same decisions. Accreditation agencies and the federal government could but they won't. A university has never actually lost accreditation or federal funding as a result of athletics abuse of Title IX despite the power being there for those bodies to do it.

Universities know that winning athletics can overcome a whole lot of scandal. North Carolina doesn't care that their academic reputation took a hit because those fakes classes gave them a competitive advantage in athletics. It won't be admitted in the public, but Baylor will take the scandal if it meant giving them the great success they have had in the past 10 years (there are other scandals in that department....dirtiest in the NCAA).

If the NCAA were to have the authority to step in on these cases, they could punish athletic programs. If athletics were suddenly at risk, you would never see the kind of crap we have at Penn State, Baylor, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. None of them would be willing to risk the athletic department to save individual athletes.

Most universities have a catch all student rule that states if a student violates state or federal law that they are subject to immediate expulsion. This is overly simplified but I always thought the NCAA could use a similar rule. If a university violates a federal law to benefit its athletic program, they are subject to sanctions from the NCAA.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2017, 02:12:17 PM »
The difference being that these are allegations against current(at the time) players and coaches directly involved in the program and spans multiple programs at Baylor. There is no quantification of which set of crimes is worse but what went on at Baylor seems at least as bad as what happened at Penn State so shouldn't the punishment at Baylor be at least the same? What is the justification of doing what the NCAA did to Penn State but not doing it to Baylor?

I do think popular opinion would be more supportive of sanctions against Baylor than they were against Penn State. Not that it should be a factor.
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Babybluejeans

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2017, 02:46:19 PM »
So, Kim Mulkey thinks that the appropriate response to families legitimately concerned about sexual assault on Baylor's campus is...assault those families. Got it.

Also, not sure why people are jumping on brandx about an innocuous Christian-school comment. The SCHOOL, not other people, chose to single itself out as Christian. And that being the case, there's rich irony in a self-identified religious institution openly cheering on Mulkey's comments.

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #21 on: February 28, 2017, 03:18:11 PM »
So, Kim Mulkey thinks that the appropriate response to families legitimately concerned about sexual assault on Baylor's campus is...assault those families. Got it.

Also, not sure why people are jumping on brandx about an innocuous Christian-school comment. The SCHOOL, not other people, chose to single itself out as Christian. And that being the case, there's rich irony in a self-identified religious institution openly cheering on Mulkey's comments.

Not people.  Me.  I'm the only one jumping on Brandx because I believe sexual harassment, assault and rape are plagues on our society.  If you want to be funny, crack a joke.  But when you polarize the issue by pointing a finger of hatred (whether veiled in irony or not) at others it not only trivializes the issue but is counterproductive for those of us who want those plagues to end.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Babybluejeans

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2017, 03:31:55 PM »
Not people.  Me.  I'm the only one jumping on Brandx because I believe sexual harassment, assault and rape are plagues on our society.  If you want to be funny, crack a joke.  But when you polarize the issue by pointing a finger of hatred (whether veiled in irony or not) at others it not only trivializes the issue but is counterproductive for those of us who want those plagues to end.

I agree that someone trivialized the issue but it wasn't brandx. You've misinterpreted whose hand the "finger of hatred" (!) is attached to.

brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2017, 05:04:27 PM »
Not to carry this out too much further, but I think the crux of the issue is that you are singling out christians in this context. Insert any religion with a moral code in the statements, especially any of the major ones: Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, and the sentance still makes sense so there is zero reason to include it in the argument in the first place.


That is a reasonable take on my comments.

brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2017, 05:07:18 PM »
This is unfortunately true. The NCAA as it is currently organized doesn't really have the ability to govern this. But the reality is that the NCAA is the one who could actually hit them where it hurts and deter other programs from making these same decisions. Accreditation agencies and the federal government could but they won't. A university has never actually lost accreditation or federal funding as a result of athletics abuse of Title IX despite the power being there for those bodies to do it.

Universities know that winning athletics can overcome a whole lot of scandal. North Carolina doesn't care that their academic reputation took a hit because those fakes classes gave them a competitive advantage in athletics. It won't be admitted in the public, but Baylor will take the scandal if it meant giving them the great success they have had in the past 10 years (there are other scandals in that department....dirtiest in the NCAA).

If the NCAA were to have the authority to step in on these cases, they could punish athletic programs. If athletics were suddenly at risk, you would never see the kind of crap we have at Penn State, Baylor, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. None of them would be willing to risk the athletic department to save individual athletes.

Most universities have a catch all student rule that states if a student violates state or federal law that they are subject to immediate expulsion. This is overly simplified but I always thought the NCAA could use a similar rule. If a university violates a federal law to benefit its athletic program, they are subject to sanctions from the NCAA.

You're probably right, TAMU.

But does there really need to be a rule about covering up rape? What a sad state of affairs when a school looks the other way over a heinous, violent crime because "there isn't a rule". Shouldn't human decency prevail?

forgetful

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2017, 06:16:34 PM »
That's ridiculous.  So you'd have no problem with the whole situation if Baylor's affiliation happened to be with a religion that openly allowed the rape and/or sexual harassment of women?

At best, the "truth-in-advertising" point you and brandx are espousing is nothing more than a diversion... this is a case where a school needs to be sanctioned and people need to go to jail, period, without any regard for religious affiliation.

I think you are too quick to attack here.  The way I read Brandx was that there are two things going on:

Most importantly

1:  Terrible crimes were committed and this should be punished to the full extent of the law.  This applies universally to any organization.

Tangentially:

2:  Baylor is a university that holds its students and faculty to an extremely high honor code, where students are required to attend church weekly and at one point all faculty were also required to, and used to be required to have a note indicating that they did attend church if they did not attend on campus services. 

To require this of your students, employees and faculty, but openly permit and cover up blatant sexual assaults and use sex/prostitution as a way to recruit athletes is absurdly hypocritical.  The hypocritical nature of this exacerbates the situation and would apply equally to other schools like, BYU, Liberty, The Citadel, that have extreme honor codes. 

I agree, referencing it as specifically Christian, was misleading, but you were too quick to immediately assume a negative angle against Christianity.

warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2017, 08:13:57 PM »
Meanwhile, college baseball players get suspended for playing fantasy football....

http://deadspin.com/report-five-richmond-baseball-players-suspended-for-he-1792836494
Have some patience, FFS.

GGGG

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brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2017, 10:47:48 PM »
Meanwhile, college baseball players get suspended for playing fantasy football....

http://deadspin.com/report-five-richmond-baseball-players-suspended-for-he-1792836494

Finally!!!

The real problem afflicting college sports has been dealt with.

I will sleep well tonight.

brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2017, 10:51:53 PM »
I think you are too quick to attack here.  The way I read Brandx was that there are two things going on:

Most importantly

1:  Terrible crimes were committed and this should be punished to the full extent of the law.  This applies universally to any organization.

Tangentially:

2:  Baylor is a university that holds its students and faculty to an extremely high honor code, where students are required to attend church weekly and at one point all faculty were also required to, and used to be required to have a note indicating that they did attend church if they did not attend on campus services. 

To require this of your students, employees and faculty, but openly permit and cover up blatant sexual assaults and use sex/prostitution as a way to recruit athletes is absurdly hypocritical.  The hypocritical nature of this exacerbates the situation and would apply equally to other schools like, BYU, Liberty, The Citadel, that have extreme honor codes. 

I agree, referencing it as specifically Christian, was misleading, but you were too quick to immediately assume a negative angle against Christianity.

A very good take on what I said/meant.

But I have no problem with Benny's comments. There are many in this country who feel "christians" are being persecuted and I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I just happen to feel differently.

As you said, I used the christian comment because it is their (Baylor) standard that they proclaim loudly and openly.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2017, 12:01:08 AM »
They should get the death penalty for sure.  It won't happen though.

The Baylor scandal though is good news for Louisville and UNC, that look like pillars of morality compared to Baylor.


Penn State did not get it despite Jerry Sandusky.  Stop their ... the death penalty no longer exists.

Moving on ... UNC defrauded hundreds of student athletes from an education and did not get it.

This shows their is no possible way one can get a death penalty.  Pay a fire, fire some people, agree to some compliance nonsense ... then go back to business as usual.

HouWarrior

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2017, 02:37:08 AM »


 Baylor is a university that holds its students and faculty to an extremely high honor code, where students are required to attend church weekly and at one point all faculty were also required to, and used to be required to have a note indicating that they did attend church if they did not attend on campus services. 

To require this of your students, employees and faculty, but openly permit and cover up blatant sexual assaults and use sex/prostitution as a way to recruit athletes is absurdly hypocritical.  The hypocritical nature of this exacerbates the situation and would apply equally to other schools like, BYU, Liberty, The Citadel, that have extreme honor codes. 



I concur here, ....especially. Baylor is not like many schools where the religious affiliation has little impact to the actual running of the school.

This is the Baptist flagship school of the USA...your citing BYU is a great analogy. Waco is a Baptist capital. West Point/Citadel have high "honor" codes too...but these codes are mostly secular . The Baylor code (attending chapel, etc) is directly connected to religious beliefs at a pervasive level.

Quoting:Baylor University is governed by a predominantly Baptist Board of Regents and is operated within the Christian-oriented aims and ideals of Baptists. The University is affiliated with the Baptist General Convention of Texas, a cooperative association of autonomous Texas Baptist churches. We expect that each Baylor student will conduct himself or herself in accordance with Christian principles as commonly perceived by Texas Baptists. Personal misconduct either on or off the campus by anyone connected with Baylor detracts from the Christian witness Baylor strives to present to the world and hinders full accomplishment of the mission of the University. http://www.baylor.edu/student_policies/index.php?id=32399

The leadership folks during this period have been equally connecting of themselves to religion .

 Read Art Briles' book : Beating Goliath: My Story of Football and Faith.

....or note this history outline of some of the religious/leadership inter denominational feuds (for example, about the teaching of evolution and the showing of R-rated movies)  :

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/08/us/08beliefs.html

Yes there were purely secular violations of rules laws and policies in the pervassive Baylor sexual assaults.

But inasmuch as Baylor aggressively/pervasively  attaches itself to  religion it isnt an attack on christianity in the least here....and it is fair game to note it in its recent failures, that:
...."Personal misconduct either on or off the campus by anyone connected with Baylor detracts from the Christian witness Baylor strives to present to the world and hinders full accomplishment of the mission of the University..."

The law best covers what you are/should be doing when people are watching and/or when you get caught. Religion/morality/ethics best covers what you are to do even when no ones looking and you wont be caught.

Baylor failed at both levels.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2017, 02:39:47 AM by houwarrior »
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2017, 08:52:04 AM »
A very good take on what I said/meant.

But I have no problem with Benny's comments. There are many in this country who feel "christians" are being persecuted and I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I just happen to feel differently.

As you said, I used the christian comment because it is their (Baylor) standard that they proclaim loudly and openly.

Just for the sake of clarity I was backing Benny not because I think Christian's are persecuted....in this country, certainly not, in some countries, potentially but it's all about your point of view.

My objection is that inserting religion, any religion, into the story is a red herring and distracts from the human tragedy that seems to be going on at that school. At some point we need to draw a line around what are basic decencies that we as a human race accept as infallible. The right to not be raped and then prevented from seeking through redress should be one of those things. That's true if it takes place at a christian university or if it takes place in a middle eastern country controlled by Muslim clerics. Neither scenario benefits at all by conflating religion with the crimes....they are crimes and should be addressed as such without the inflammation of religion.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2017, 09:38:30 AM »
But I have no problem with Benny's comments. There are many in this country who feel "christians" are being persecuted and I don't begrudge them their beliefs. I just happen to feel differently.

See... I knew I would get you to see the light.  I still have work to do, but I'm going to teach you how to make a solid, logical argument yet.

But with every two steps forward, there's one back... there's nothing wrong with put Christians in quotes given the context of the matter (I would certainly do the same), but if you do so, you have to capitalize the 'C.'  In other words, you can reference these so-called "Christians" pejoratively by using either quotations or the lower case, but you can't do both.  While the rules for double-pejorative are not the same as double-negative, you cannot emphasize a pejorative with another pejorative... you have to use a separate adjective (e.g. see how I used 'so-called' above).  In utilizing both pejoratives, you actually end up making reference to an undefined group of people who - presumably - have nothing to do with J.C.'s teachings.  But again, all of this is irrelevant to the subject at hand:

It's horribly tragic that no heads will roll (figuratively literally) at Baylor over this, of course, presuming the allegations are true.  The universities are not going to police themselves individually... especially when there's millions of $$ at stake.  At some point, the NCAA has to step in and both draft and enforce a code of conduct that allows a school like Baylor to be sanctioned when something like this occurs.  We cannot leave it to the justice system because too often, rape and sexual assault cases are too difficult to prosecute, even when there's sufficient evidence to indict.  No one else can fix the situation except the NCAA, but unfortunately, the NCAA is not an outside agency... its leadership, and therefore its powers, are vested in its members.  So long as those members include juggernauts of influence like UNC, Baylor, Penn State, Syracuse - not to mention their respective conferences who also suffer from sanctions - the NCAA will be beholden to the dollar at the expense of basic civil protections and human decency.

[See... no reference to religion necessary.]
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2017, 11:46:09 AM »
See... I knew I would get you to see the light.  I still have work to do, but I'm going to teach you how to make a solid, logical argument yet.

But with every two steps forward, there's one back... there's nothing wrong with put Christians in quotes given the context of the matter (I would certainly do the same), but if you do so, you have to capitalize the 'C.'  In other words, you can reference these so-called "Christians" pejoratively by using either quotations or the lower case, but you can't do both.  While the rules for double-pejorative are not the same as double-negative, you cannot emphasize a pejorative with another pejorative... you have to use a separate adjective (e.g. see how I used 'so-called' above).  In utilizing both pejoratives, you actually end up making reference to an undefined group of people who - presumably - have nothing to do with J.C.'s teachings.  But again, all of this is irrelevant to the subject at hand:



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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2017, 11:50:30 AM »
Just for the sake of clarity I was backing Benny not because I think Christian's are persecuted....in this country, certainly not, in some countries, potentially but it's all about your point of view.

My objection is that inserting religion, any religion, into the story is a red herring and distracts from the human tragedy that seems to be going on at that school. At some point we need to draw a line around what are basic decencies that we as a human race accept as infallible. The right to not be raped and then prevented from seeking through redress should be one of those things. That's true if it takes place at a christian university or if it takes place in a middle eastern country controlled by Muslim clerics. Neither scenario benefits at all by conflating religion with the crimes....they are crimes and should be addressed as such without the inflammation of religion.

I understood that in your earlier comment. And, your point about a red herring may be correct. It is a conversation that maybe should stand on its own.

But when a group's very identity is based on religion and morality, I think it opens the conversation a little wider when they allow and defend this sort of behavior.


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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2017, 02:35:59 PM »
You have taught me so much, master (or should it be "Master"). I hope I will be able to repay you some day.

Next I'll teach you how to master the Toledo Take Back.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2017, 03:07:14 PM »
But when a group's very identity is based on religion and morality, I think it opens the conversation a little wider when they allow and defend this sort of behavior.

With you 100% here. If we want to talk about the hypocrisy of various organized religions and the misapplication of their moral codes, I could go on for days.

Honestly, I'd rather have someone who's morally bankrupt but in an agnostic way than someone who picks and chooses when they want to apply their religious-based morality. Much easier to understand and predict the former.
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brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2017, 05:45:08 PM »
With you 100% here. If we want to talk about the hypocrisy of various organized religions and the misapplication of their moral codes, I could go on for days.

Honestly, I'd rather have someone who's morally bankrupt but in an agnostic way than someone who picks and chooses when they want to apply their religious-based morality. Much easier to understand and predict the former.

I think we pretty much agree.

I probably should have been more specific and referred to the people at Baylor rather than use the generic "christian". But to me there is a big, big difference between "christians" and "Christians". I should have explained that in my original post.

mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2017, 12:13:11 PM »
I think we pretty much agree.

I probably should have been more specific and referred to the people at Baylor rather than use the generic "christian". But to me there is a big, big difference between "christians" and "Christians". I should have explained that in my original post.

"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2017, 11:57:06 PM »
You're probably right, TAMU.

But does there really need to be a rule about covering up rape? What a sad state of affairs when a school looks the other way over a heinous, violent crime because "there isn't a rule". Shouldn't human decency prevail?

Sadly, I don't live in a world of human decency.

I firmly believe that every student that I have had a hand in finding responsible for sexual assault has known at least on some level, that what they did was wrong. Yet every single one of them tried to find some loophole or rationalization that justified their actions. But I also firmly believe that while every one of them knew what they did was wrong....most of them believed that it wasn't THAT wrong. Quite simply, most people can't come to terms with the reality that they committed a sexual assault.

It is currently estimated that 98% of rapists will never spend a day in jail. Some of that is because of under-reporting. But most of it is because our justice system is not properly set up to handle sexual assault cases. Convincing 12 strangers beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred when 95%+ of the time the only witnesses are the victim and the alleged? Damn near impossible. Especially in today's day and age where everyone points at Duke LAX and says "but that was a lie! ESPN told me so!"

Don't get me wrong, when someone's freedom is on the line, maximum due process and the highest standard of proof is necessary. I am a firm believer that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent one go to prison. However, I still think it is a massive failure when 98% of people who commit a specific crime go free. We need to find a way to lower that number without compromising due process. How? I have a few ideas. But it will take a complete shift in how the courts view consent and sexual assault.

That long rant is basically to say....when sh*t hits the fan or lots of $$$ is involved, all human decency goes out the window. The only way to stop this is to write strong legislation and enforce it. If you leave any loophole or wiggle room it will be exploited.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 11:59:36 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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brandx

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2017, 09:34:25 AM »
Sadly, I don't live in a world of human decency.

I firmly believe that every student that I have had a hand in finding responsible for sexual assault has known at least on some level, that what they did was wrong. Yet every single one of them tried to find some loophole or rationalization that justified their actions. But I also firmly believe that while every one of them knew what they did was wrong....most of them believed that it wasn't THAT wrong. Quite simply, most people can't come to terms with the reality that they committed a sexual assault.

It is currently estimated that 98% of rapists will never spend a day in jail. Some of that is because of under-reporting. But most of it is because our justice system is not properly set up to handle sexual assault cases. Convincing 12 strangers beyond a reasonable doubt that a crime occurred when 95%+ of the time the only witnesses are the victim and the alleged? Damn near impossible. Especially in today's day and age where everyone points at Duke LAX and says "but that was a lie! ESPN told me so!"

Don't get me wrong, when someone's freedom is on the line, maximum due process and the highest standard of proof is necessary. I am a firm believer that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent one go to prison. However, I still think it is a massive failure when 98% of people who commit a specific crime go free. We need to find a way to lower that number without compromising due process. How? I have a few ideas. But it will take a complete shift in how the courts view consent and sexual assault.

That long rant is basically to say....when sh*t hits the fan or lots of $$$ is involved, all human decency goes out the window. The only way to stop this is to write strong legislation and enforce it. If you leave any loophole or wiggle room it will be exploited.

I have nothing but admiration for people like you who can keep a clear mind when having to deal with this garbage.

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2017, 12:42:23 PM »
Don't get me wrong, when someone's freedom is on the line, maximum due process and the highest standard of proof is necessary. I am a firm believer that it is better that a guilty man go free than an innocent one go to prison. However, I still think it is a massive failure when 98% of people who commit a specific crime go free. We need to find a way to lower that number without compromising due process. How? I have a few ideas. But it will take a complete shift in how the courts view consent and sexual assault.

A lot of well-intentioned people have been struggling with this question for a long time.  The problem is that one of the keystones to our legal system is the accused's right to confront his/her accuser.  Unfortunately, in the case of a sexual assault, rape, etc., there's only one person who can make that accusation and that person happens to be the victim.  The biggest obstacle a prosecutor has in overcoming the burden of proof is a victim's presence of mind (to make it through the shaming of cross-examination).

Honestly, I can't see any way we can leave it up to the American legal system without creating a whole new set of rules (which would inevitably be tossed as unconstitutional)... the cure for this epidemic has to start in the home by a) teaching respect and boundaries and b) eliminating the shame of sex.  Do not interpret the latter as victim-blaming, but it is victim-indoctrinating... our society places a stigma on a females and sex that needs to end. 

Take for example a mugging... absent the sexual component, it's an otherwise similar personal violation as rape.  When someone is mugged at gunpoint, they typically feel victimized, vulnerable, powerless, embarrassed, shocked, etc., just like someone who is raped.  However, the victim of a mugging isn't stigmatized or shamed by society - whether he/she contributed to his/her actions or not - and so when it comes to trial, the victim has no problem standing up to his/her perpetrator.  But because our society stigmatizes women who have had previous sexual contact - whether it be voluntary or involuntary - the immediate reaction for most women is to simply keep quiet about it.  Hence, your 98%.  In other words, women need to be able to confront their accuser without fear that society will cast them aside.

While this may appear to be contrary to what I said earlier, perhaps the cure for the rape epidemic is to trivialize sex.  Start with teaching people that there's no shame in a woman having sex.  Perhaps then someday, a woman's immediate reaction will be not to not keep quiet, but to say "you forced me to have sex against my will... I'll get over it... but in the meantime, I'm going to make sure the favor is repaid for the next 20-30 years." 

Once women can view sexual assault and rape strictly as a crime, and not a scarlet letter, maybe that 98% will drop to 9.8%.  In the same vein, when women are not made to feel shame for having sex, we'll most likely also see false claims of sexual assault and rape plummet.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2017, 12:55:48 PM »
A lot of well-intentioned people have been struggling with this question for a long time.  The problem is that one of the keystones to our legal system is the accused's right to confront his/her accuser.  Unfortunately, in the case of a sexual assault, rape, etc., there's only one person who can make that accusation and that person happens to be the victim.  The biggest obstacle a prosecutor has in overcoming the burden of proof is a victim's presence of mind (to make it through the shaming of cross-examination).

Honestly, I can't see any way we can leave it up to the American legal system without creating a whole new set of rules (which would inevitably be tossed as unconstitutional)... the cure for this epidemic has to start in the home by a) teaching respect and boundaries and b) eliminating the shame of sex.  Do not interpret the latter as victim-blaming, but it is victim-indoctrinating... our society places a stigma on a females and sex that needs to end. 

Take for example a mugging... absent the sexual component, it's an otherwise similar personal violation as rape.  When someone is mugged at gunpoint, they typically feel victimized, vulnerable, powerless, embarrassed, shocked, etc., just like someone who is raped.  However, the victim of a mugging isn't stigmatized or shamed by society - whether he/she contributed to his/her actions or not - and so when it comes to trial, the victim has no problem standing up to his/her perpetrator.  But because our society stigmatizes women who have had previous sexual contact - whether it be voluntary or involuntary - the immediate reaction for most women is to simply keep quiet about it.  Hence, your 98%.  In other words, women need to be able to confront their accuser without fear that society will cast them aside.

While this may appear to be contrary to what I said earlier, perhaps the cure for the rape epidemic is to trivialize sex.  Start with teaching people that there's no shame in a woman having sex.  Perhaps then someday, a woman's immediate reaction will be not to not keep quiet, but to say "you forced me to have sex against my will... I'll get over it... but in the meantime, I'm going to make sure the favor is repaid for the next 20-30 years." 

Once women can view sexual assault and rape strictly as a crime, and not a scarlet letter, maybe that 98% will drop to 9.8%.  In the same vein, when women are not made to feel shame for having sex, we'll most likely also see false claims of sexual assault and rape plummet.

The double standard and related slut-shaming is definitely part of it, but it is not everything.

My guess is that it is very rare for the defense of an straight-up assault and battery defendant to be "He wanted me to hit him over the head with a pipe."  But consent is one of the primary defenses in sexual assault, and probably the most common when the accuser knows the defendant. And "yes, she told me that she likes it rough".

You will always have a harder case to prove when the issue is whether or not the accuser was a willing participant.  Not placing blame or making excuses; it's just the way it is.
Have some patience, FFS.

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2017, 04:24:25 PM »
Next I'll teach you how to master the Toledo Take Back.

Or the Madison Handshake.

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2017, 03:06:27 PM »
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/new-title-ix-suit-alleges-woman-gang-raped-least-4-ex-baylor-players-154509881.html

Seventh Title IX suit filed against Baylor. The more information that comes out, the more heinous it seems. Assuming all the allegations are true, there has never been a school more deserving of the NCAA death penalty or to have its federal funding stripped via Title IX. The latter won't happen. The former likely won't either. NCAA will claim that it doesn't have jurisdiction but I wonder if the below paragraph opens the door a little bit:

Quote
The new suit — the seventh Title IX suit filed against the school — also corroborates the January suit’s claim that Baylor would use sex to sell the football program to incoming players and notes the school would look the other way regarding a policy that prohibited women from the Baylor Bruin hosting program from having sexual contact with football players and recruits. It also notes that Baylor football players would have dog fights at parties.

Given that abuse of "hostess" programs is pretty widespread among P5 football and the kid gloves that the NCAA has been using on the Louisville case, I'm not hopeful here. But I do think it gives them the option if they have the courage to take it.
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warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2017, 03:09:15 PM »
https://sports.yahoo.com/news/new-title-ix-suit-alleges-woman-gang-raped-least-4-ex-baylor-players-154509881.html

Seventh Title IX suit filed against Baylor. The more information that comes out, the more heinous it seems. Assuming all the allegations are true, there has never been a school more deserving of the NCAA death penalty or to have its federal funding stripped via Title IX. The latter won't happen. The former likely won't either. NCAA will claim that it doesn't have jurisdiction but I wonder if the below paragraph opens the door a little bit:

Given that abuse of "hostess" programs is pretty widespread among P5 football and the kid gloves that the NCAA has been using on the Louisville case, I'm not hopeful here. But I do think it gives them the option if they have the courage to take it.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of people for whom the dogfighting is the much more serious offense.
Have some patience, FFS.

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2017, 05:21:09 PM »
Unfortunately, there are plenty of people for whom the dogfighting is the much more serious offense.

If the "sexual contact" were consensual - admittedly I don't know, but I'm presuming the "hostesses" are "independent contractors" and not actual students on work-study grants - why would dogfighting not be the more serious offense?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2017, 06:39:05 PM »
If the "sexual contact" were consensual - admittedly I don't know, but I'm presuming the "hostesses" are "independent contractors" and not actual students on work-study grants - why would dogfighting not be the more serious offense?


How do you know that the dog fighting wasn't consensual?
Have some patience, FFS.

source?

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2017, 08:28:04 PM »
...

buckchuckler

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2017, 08:30:19 PM »

How do you know that the dog fighting wasn't consensual?

Are equating the cognitive and reasoning abilities of the hostesses and the dogs?

warriorchick

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2017, 08:38:50 PM »
Are equating the cognitive and reasoning abilities of the hostesses and the dogs?

Certainly the reasoning abilities.
Have some patience, FFS.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2017, 11:13:20 PM »
If the "sexual contact" were consensual - admittedly I don't know, but I'm presuming the "hostesses" are "independent contractors" and not actual students on work-study grants - why would dogfighting not be the more serious offense?

I can't speak for her but I assume Chick meant sexual assault in general not hostesses sleeping with recruits.

Hostess programs are usually recognized student organizations. Students are not usually paid but they do receive incentives to become hostesses. Some even go so far as to offer free or discounted housing and scholarships.

A hostess having consensual sex with a recruit is fine from a legal and conduct prescriptive (assuming the ages of the two individuals are within the law, keep in mind, these are high school students). It might be an NCAA violation, honestly not sure. The problem becomes if the sex is truly consensual. There have been cases where a recruit assumes the hostess is there for his pleasure (usually because of experience on other recruiting trips) and takes advantage. These cases are few and far between (though I would imagine that they would be incredibly underreported so its hard to say that for sure). The more common kind of case is that the hostesses are pressured and coerced by the other hostesses or sometimes even university staff to have sex with the recruits. This becomes an amazingly messy situation. It is for sure a hazing violation that needs to be addressed and the other students and staff can and should be held accountable. But what do you do with the recruit? If the hostess was pressured, but not by the recruit, how can you hold them accountable? Should you hold them accountable? Depends on the facts of the case. If the hostess initiates and gives no outward sign of duress, I don't think the recruit is at fault. If the hostess "consents" but is in tears, different story.

Hostess programs are a tradition I would love to see die out. There's just too much potential for abuse. When they are recruiting young women to be hostesses, they aren't advertising it as "come have sex with high school students that our football team is recruiting!" But once they are in the program, there can be tremendous amounts of pressure to do just that. Add in that you might be relying on the scholarship or housing that came with the program? All of the sudden its "have sex with this player or we will evict you and take away your money."

This isn't to say that all hostess programs are bad. I am sure there are many, maybe even most, that are completely above board. I've been fortunate enough not to handle any cases with our hostess team here at TAMU. But I have heard several from colleagues at other schools. There was a recent one at a P5 school where a university employee was forcing hostesses to pose in bikinis at parties hosted by the football team with recruits present. He then tried to kick members who refused out for "failing to make mandatory events."

Anyway, there's my rant on hostess programs. Well part of it. I could on even longer. My main point in bringing up the hostess program at Baylor is that it might "open the door" so to speak for the NCAA and give them the jurisdiction they are trying to say they don't have.
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2017, 08:34:56 AM »

How do you know that the dog fighting wasn't consensual?

"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Benny B

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2017, 10:49:19 AM »
I can't speak for her but I assume Chick meant sexual assault in general not hostesses sleeping with recruits.

Hostess programs are usually recognized student organizations. Students are not usually paid but they do receive incentives to become hostesses. Some even go so far as to offer free or discounted housing and scholarships.

A hostess having consensual sex with a recruit is fine from a legal and conduct prescriptive (assuming the ages of the two individuals are within the law, keep in mind, these are high school students). It might be an NCAA violation, honestly not sure. The problem becomes if the sex is truly consensual. There have been cases where a recruit assumes the hostess is there for his pleasure (usually because of experience on other recruiting trips) and takes advantage. These cases are few and far between (though I would imagine that they would be incredibly underreported so its hard to say that for sure). The more common kind of case is that the hostesses are pressured and coerced by the other hostesses or sometimes even university staff to have sex with the recruits. This becomes an amazingly messy situation. It is for sure a hazing violation that needs to be addressed and the other students and staff can and should be held accountable. But what do you do with the recruit? If the hostess was pressured, but not by the recruit, how can you hold them accountable? Should you hold them accountable? Depends on the facts of the case. If the hostess initiates and gives no outward sign of duress, I don't think the recruit is at fault. If the hostess "consents" but is in tears, different story.

Hostess programs are a tradition I would love to see die out. There's just too much potential for abuse. When they are recruiting young women to be hostesses, they aren't advertising it as "come have sex with high school students that our football team is recruiting!" But once they are in the program, there can be tremendous amounts of pressure to do just that. Add in that you might be relying on the scholarship or housing that came with the program? All of the sudden its "have sex with this player or we will evict you and take away your money."

This isn't to say that all hostess programs are bad. I am sure there are many, maybe even most, that are completely above board. I've been fortunate enough not to handle any cases with our hostess team here at TAMU. But I have heard several from colleagues at other schools. There was a recent one at a P5 school where a university employee was forcing hostesses to pose in bikinis at parties hosted by the football team with recruits present. He then tried to kick members who refused out for "failing to make mandatory events."

Anyway, there's my rant on hostess programs. Well part of it. I could on even longer. My main point in bringing up the hostess program at Baylor is that it might "open the door" so to speak for the NCAA and give them the jurisdiction they are trying to say they don't have.

Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2017, 12:39:31 PM »
Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.

You are just so naive, Benny.

For a lot of parents, winning games is much more important than the well-being of their daughters.

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2017, 01:16:29 PM »
Learn something new every day.  My new tidbit for today: hostesses are students.

I guess I assumed the hostesses were all day-lighting dancers after the whole Louisville thing... nevertheless, the fact that they're students I find awfully disconcerting.  Seriously, what parent would be OK with sending their daughter to college only to find out she's doing "everything she can" to convince football and basketball recruits to attend the university.

Like I said,  many hostess programs are completely above board. I think every parent of a hostess tells themselves that their daughter is in one is the good ones.  But if being a hostess is truly just about helping recruits learn about campus life.... Why are all hostesses skinny,  attractive women? Even if hostesses aren't being pressured to have sex with recruits,  it's still a shallow attempt to try and sell a player on sex.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2017, 02:25:58 PM »
Like I said,  many hostess programs are completely above board. I think every parent of a hostess tells themselves that their daughter is in one is the good ones.  But if being a hostess is truly just about helping recruits learn about campus life.... Why are all hostesses skinny,  attractive women? Even if hostesses aren't being pressured to have sex with recruits,  it's still a shallow attempt to try and sell a player on sex.

Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2017, 02:42:31 PM »
Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?

100%

And if it's really about campus life, why are they women at all? Men can't learn about campus life from other men?

The hostess program, on it's face is a farce and I see no reason they should continue for any reason.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2017, 02:49:18 PM »
Exactly.  In other words, what kind of message would you be sending to your daughter by condoning this?  Instead of our daughters going to college to get an education (so as to someday break the cycle of inequality), we're sending them to college to perpetuate a myth that they're nothing more than objects for the enjoyment of the [OWM] fans?

Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2017, 02:54:10 PM »
Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?

I am going to take exception to lumping in cheerleaders and dance teams. At least they have to have some actual athletic talent. A hostess just needs to "be nice to the recruits"  wink, wink.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #61 on: May 18, 2017, 03:02:34 PM »
Preaching to the choir. I have similar thoughts about beauty pageants, cheerleaders, and dance teams. I do think there are completely legitimate reasons to want to do all those things....but that doesn't change the reality that all of them promote the idea that women are objects for our sexual gratification. But is that the fault of the cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses? Or the fault of a society that demands that cheerleaders, dancers, and hostesses must be physically attractive and sexualized?

Interesting question.

A very good friend of ours was a "pommie" in high school (dance team basically) and she will claim to her dying day that it's a legitimate sport and is very proud that they won state or conference or whatever. I, of course, take great pleasure in dropping references to how it's not a sport.

Anywho, here's the thing, is it a sport that exploits women....or is it an event that exploits women that was turned into a sport.....or is that a difference without a distinction? More over, let's say we eliminate dance or cheerleading teams, what do we do with the women who lose the scholarship opportunity as a result of canceling their sport?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #62 on: May 18, 2017, 03:02:58 PM »
I am going to take exception to lumping in cheerleaders and dance teams. At least they have to have some actual athletic talent. A hostess just needs to "be nice to the recruits"  wink, wink.

Yes, but if cheerleading and dance team were about athletic talent,  then they wouldn't be almost exclusively made up of attractive women who almost always perform in revealing and sexualized outfits. Again,  I don't think that's the fault of the cheerleaders and dancers... but a greater societal issue. 
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #63 on: May 18, 2017, 03:08:21 PM »
Yes, but if cheerleading and dance team were about athletic talent,  then they wouldn't be almost exclusively made up of attractive women who almost always perform in revealing and sexualized outfits. Again,  I don't think that's the fault of the cheerleaders and dancers... but a greater societal issue.

So I'll mark you down as not of fan of Intensity(is MU's dance team still called that?)
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #64 on: May 18, 2017, 03:11:41 PM »
Interesting question.

A very good friend of ours was a "pommie" in high school (dance team basically) and she will claim to her dying day that it's a legitimate sport and is very proud that they won state or conference or whatever. I, of course, take great pleasure in dropping references to how it's not a sport.

Anywho, here's the thing, is it a sport that exploits women....or is it an event that exploits women that was turned into a sport.....or is that a difference without a distinction? More over, let's say we eliminate dance or cheerleading teams, what do we do with the women who lose the scholarship opportunity as a result of canceling their sport?

Personally,  I think the best outcome is for dancers and cheerleaders to actually be valued for dancing and cheerleading. Don't make decisions about whose on the team based on looks and gender. Make it based on their actual ability.  Unfortunately,  I think a lot of fans would take issue with men with pom poms and "uggo" dancers. And they are the ones with the money.  Same thing with hostesses. Make it about who can genuinely make a player feel welcome on campus instead of seducing a player into liking the campus.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #65 on: May 18, 2017, 03:15:43 PM »
So I'll mark you down as not of fan of Intensity(is MU's dance team still called that?)

I'm not.  But that's because SEC dance teams are on all whole other level. I'm a fan of dance teams,  it's just sad that in order to do what they love they must play the role of sexual object.
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2017, 03:20:34 PM »
I'm not.  But that's because SEC dance teams are on all whole other level. I'm a fan of dance teams,  it's just sad that in order to do what they love they must play the role of sexual object.

I'm not a fan because they aren't good IMHO. I absolutely can't dance, but as an entertainment option during the games it's a total meh.
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mu03eng

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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #67 on: May 18, 2017, 03:22:54 PM »
Personally,  I think the best outcome is for dancers and cheerleaders to actually be valued for dancing and cheerleading. Don't make decisions about whose on the team based on looks and gender. Make it based on their actual ability.  Unfortunately,  I think a lot of fans would take issue with men with pom poms and "uggo" dancers. And they are the ones with the money.  Same thing with hostesses. Make it about who can genuinely make a player feel welcome on campus instead of seducing a player into liking the campus.

Isn't it inevitable that if you are a very good dancer that you are going to be close to the cultural norm of "good looking" if for no other reason than you are fit because of all that working out?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #68 on: May 18, 2017, 03:32:12 PM »
Isn't it inevitable that if you are a very good dancer that you are going to be close to the cultural norm of "good looking" if for no other reason than you are fit because of all that working out?

To an extent. But you've never met someone who is totally fit but a face only a mother could love? I mean, look at Sam Cassell, athlete in the top 1% of his sport, not winning any beauty competitions any time soon. There's also the question of male dancers as well. Why can't men be on dance teams or be using the pom poms?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #69 on: May 18, 2017, 07:56:19 PM »
Is it ok if a girl wants to be considered a sex object, hey?
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Re: Baylor Scandal
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2017, 08:30:27 PM »
Is it ok if a girl wants to be considered a sex object, hey?

Theoretically. The problem is that the choice is usually made for them.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2017, 08:33:09 PM by TAMU Eagle »
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