collapse

* Recent Posts

Sweet 16 presser by cheebs09
[Today at 04:00:16 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by Dr. Blackheart
[Today at 03:40:45 PM]


2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by NickelDimer
[Today at 03:31:19 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by avid1010
[Today at 03:29:22 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Pakuni
[Today at 03:28:48 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by The Sultan of Semantics
[Today at 03:24:51 PM]


Where is Marquette? by Uncle Rico
[Today at 03:05:12 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!


Author Topic: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?  (Read 6170 times)

GoldenDieners32

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2053
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2017, 09:25:22 AM »
Usually if a player is one and done he can be considered a bust if his career doesn't take off but he was also a 2nd rounder. Usually no second rounders are considered busts

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 12:39:52 PM »
If you cannot get on the floor in the NBDL ...

Hassan Whiteside averaged a whopping 10 mpg in his first D-League season.
He turned out sort of OK, I think.

Way too soon to tell.

Tugg Speedman

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8836
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2017, 12:43:17 PM »
No NBA player taken outside the lottery should ever be considered a bust and even that's stretching it. You could probably take it down to outside the top 10.

Wait ... I see the problem. 

I think "bust" means the team picking that player made a mistake.  The team picking a first rounder expects that pick to be productive enough to warrant a second contract.  If not, then that pick was a "bust" from the TEAM's prospective.

You're talking about whether a player is a bust from that players prospective.  I agree it is hard to be a bust when you're getting paid.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2017, 12:45:41 PM »
First rounder that did not get a second contract.

So by this standard, Lazar Hayward was a bust, but Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were not.
Interesting.

ChitownSpaceForRent

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6315
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2017, 12:53:46 PM »
So by this standard, Lazar Hayward was a bust, but Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were not.
Interesting.

I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9876
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 01:01:33 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Fact is, in the history of the NBA draft, 63 players have been selected at #30 overall, like Lazar.
Of those 63, Lazar ranks 31st in games played. He's actually fared better than the majority of #30 overall picks.
It's asinine to hold a #30 overall pick to the same standard as a #3 or even #13 overall pick when determining "bust-ness."

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 01:10:11 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.


In 2010, Lazar was the 30th pick in the draft.  Here are the 5 30th picks before and after him.

2005: David Lee - Still in the league.  Former all star.
2006: Joel Freeland - Made his NBA debut in 2012 and lasted three seasons
2007: Petteri Koponen - Never made the NBA
2008: J.R. Giddens - Played a portion of a couple seasons in the NBA.  Now in Europe
2009: Christian Eyenga - Ditto to Giddens.
2010:  LAZAR!!!
2011: Jimmy Butler - No need to say anything
2012: Festus Ezeli - Regular NBA player
2013: Nemanja Nedović - Portion of one season in NBA. Now in Europe
2014: Kyle Anderson - Rotation player for Spurs
2015: Kevon Looney - Injured last year.  Starting to emerge as a rotation player for Warriors

So here is what you get.  Two all stars (Butler, Lee), one decent player (Ezeli), a couple players with potential (Anderson, Looney), and five guys with careers similar to Lazar's.

My conclusion:  Lazar wasn't a bust.  The 30th pick in the draft is all about potential and most guys don't achieve it so the league moves on.

MerrittsMustache

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4676
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2017, 01:45:27 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

1st Round picks get 2 years guaranteed, which isn't much. Teams obviously want to find a Jimmy Butler or Kyle Lowry late in the 1st Round but, for the most part, teams are just hoping to find a decent rotation player who they can bring back for his option years at a low salary. They may also look for a Euro diamond-in-the-rough guy who they can stash overseas for a couple years to see if he looks like a player. If not, he stays there with no cap harm done.


brandx

  • Guest
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 02:37:22 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Late 1st rounders are usually drafted with the hope they can develop a skill set that will keep them in the league for a while. Late 1st rounders are almost never looked at as future starters in the NBA.

The best case scenario is a guy like Butler - which is very rare.

Mostly teams "hope" they can find a guy who can develop his game - a la Jae Crowder - and become a viable player. But it is all about finding the right situation.

Stone has no chance this year. He has an All-star and an established, effective player in front of him - 2 guys who play 47.9 minutes a game out of 48.

Stone will make well over $1 million in his first two years. He will learn the defensive end from the best defensive center in the league and has a great coach in Doc. By year three, he will be able to look for a team that needs his talents.

So, should we consider anyone becoming a millionaire within two years of leaving college to be a failure?

Tugg Speedman

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8836
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2017, 05:09:24 PM »
Late 1st rounders are usually drafted with the hope they can develop a skill set that will keep them in the league for a while. Late 1st rounders are almost never looked at as future starters in the NBA.

The best case scenario is a guy like Butler - which is very rare.

Mostly teams "hope" they can find a guy who can develop his game - a la Jae Crowder - and become a viable player. But it is all about finding the right situation.

Stone has no chance this year. He has an All-star and an established, effective player in front of him - 2 guys who play 47.9 minutes a game out of 48.

Stone will make well over $1 million in his first two years. He will learn the defensive end from the best defensive center in the league and has a great coach in Doc. By year three, he will be able to look for a team that needs his talents.

So, should we consider anyone becoming a millionaire within two years of leaving college to be a failure?

Again with the point of view from the player ... and you will sing the praises of Tony Mandarich because he got paid so no Packer fan should ever consider him a bust.  And you would argue Pakuni is wrong and Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were all not busts either.

It about the point of view of the team, not the player.

brandx

  • Guest
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 05:40:05 PM »
Again with the point of view from the player ... and you will sing the praises of Tony Mandarich because he got paid so no Packer fan should ever consider him a bust.  And you would argue Pakuni is wrong and Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were all not busts either.

It about the point of view of the team, not the player.

You really are clueless. You are comparing a "can't miss" Mandarich with guys taken with the 30th and 40 picks in basketball. You are unable to comprehend the difference in the two sports and drafting philosophy. You are simply channeling the banned loser from this board. You argue for the sake of arguing without even having a valid point. and as has been shown in other threads. once you are shown to be wrong, you just grab the biggest shovel you can find and dig deeper.

Mandarich was drafted 2nd OVERALL. So of course he was a bust. Guys drafted after the middle of the 1st round in the NBA are not expected to become starters. If you had any knowledge of the tiers that scouts use in the NBA, you would know this.

Stone was a 2nd round draft pick. 2nd round draft picks are not considered busts. EVER. Jon Leuer is probably the most successful pick taken at #40 over the last dozen years.

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 06:42:39 PM »
Stone was a 2nd round draft pick. 2nd round draft picks are not considered busts. EVER. Jon Leuer is probably the most successful pick taken at #40 over the last dozen years.


Since 2000, I would rank him fourth behind Monta Ellis, Earl Watson and Lance Stephenson.  Ahead of Glenn Robinson III.

DegenerateDish

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2531
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 09:32:33 PM »
The NBA draft is far and away the most unique draft in sports. Rarely, if ever, do you see a team with multiple first round picks, package those picks together to move up in the draft. Reason being there are such limited superstars ever available, and then the trickle down of talent. Look at the 2016 draft. Simmons we don't know about, Ingram has potential, but there may never be an all star out of that entire class. Does that mean the whole class is a bust? 60 odd guys have to get drafted, the collective talent pool sometimes just sucks.

brandx

  • Guest
Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2017, 07:37:00 AM »

Since 2000, I would rank him fourth behind Monta Ellis, Earl Watson and Lance Stephenson.  Ahead of Glenn Robinson III.

Ellis is obviously the best. I was considering guys coming from college.