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Author Topic: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?  (Read 6171 times)

Tugg Speedman

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Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« on: February 13, 2017, 01:28:23 PM »
He's on the Clippers, has appeared in only 5 games and logged a total of 20 minutes in the NBA.  Sent down to the NBDL and I stumbled accross this story dated January 13.

Or maybe Doc is punishing him for not going to MU.

Diamond Stone’s Inexplicable Stint in the Non-Development League
You don’t normally send young guys down to sit on the bench.
by Lucas Hann@LucasJHann  Jan 13, 2017, 5:59am PST

http://www.clipsnation.com/2017/1/13/14259518/la-clippers-diamond-stone-stint-non-development-league-nba-dleague-prospect

Diamond Stone hasn’t been able to get minutes for the Clippers this season. That’s not surprising and probably for the best—he’s a 19-year-old rookie, taken in the second round, who is seen as a “project” player. It seemed pretty clear from the beginning that Stone would spend plenty of time during his rookie season in the NBA D-League, getting game experience.

On December 26th, when the Clippers assigned Diamond to his current stint with the Salt Lake City Stars, Doc’s reasoning was simple: “We have enough bigs, he’s not playing, and I want him to play. I think it’s important for him to play.”

The sentiment is totally correct, and this is conventional thinking in the NBA: when teams have young players who aren’t good enough to get on the court, they send them to the NBA D-League where they’ll get more run and presumably be a focal point of the team. Just last year, Doc Rivers used the D-League regularly to provide opportunities to C.J. Wilcox and Branden Dawson.

Here’s the problem: Stone hasn’t been able to get on the court in Salt Lake City. After posting relatively decent stat lines in his first two games (17 points, 9 rebounds, 7-14 FG in 23 minutes; 7 points, 10 rebounds, 3-8 FG, 1-1 3PT in 22 minutes), he hasn’t played in the team’s last 4 games. Four straight “Did Not Play—Coach’s Decision” labels in the box score. This isn’t a criticism of Stars coach Dean Cooper. I don’t know anything about him, and I haven’t watched Stone’s game film. While those stat lines look decent, there’s certainly cause for concern—he fouled out of his first game and had 5 fouls in his second, and in that second game he also added 5 turnovers. And in the first game, even though he scored 17 points, his +/- was -24 in 23 minutes of a 1-point victory.

It’s entirely possible that Dean Cooper, doing his best to win basketball games, made a rational and fair choice to bench Diamond Stone. Coach Cooper isn’t the problem here—but the Clippers need to adjust to this reality and develop their prospect instead of letting him rot on a bench in Utah. They made an investment in this player by selecting him in the draft and the franchise owes it to themselves to maximize his development during the span of the two-year contract they signed him to.

When I asked Doc about this last night following the Clippers’ win over the Orlando Magic, he seemed fine with Diamond’s situation: “He’s gotta earn it. Just because you go down doesn’t mean that you’re gonna play, and it’s probably a good lesson for him. I think a lot of guys from our league, they go down to the D-League and they assume it’s gonna be all about them. There are D-League coaches that are trying to win too. He’ll play, but he’s gonna have to earn it.”
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 01:31:03 PM by Yukon Cornelius »

wadesworld

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2017, 02:14:05 PM »
Yes a second round draft pick is a bust 4 months into his professional basketball career.  :o
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GGGG

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2017, 02:15:26 PM »
It very well could be for a non-basketball reason as well.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2017, 02:23:49 PM »
Yes a second round draft pick is a bust 4 months into his professional basketball career.  :o

If you cannot get on the floor in the NBDL ...

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2017, 02:36:03 PM »
The only reason I even remember Diamond Stone is because he was in a promo for Bill Nye's new Netflix series.

4everwarriors

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2017, 02:36:21 PM »
Translation: Da dude isn't puttin' out the work effort ta warrant prime time minutes. AKA lazy, hey?
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MerrittsMustache

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2017, 02:51:53 PM »
When I asked Doc about this last night following the Clippers’ win over the Orlando Magic, he seemed fine with Diamond’s situation: “He’s gotta earn it. Just because you go down doesn’t mean that you’re gonna play, and it’s probably a good lesson for him. I think a lot of guys from our league, they go down to the D-League and they assume it’s gonna be all about them. There are D-League coaches that are trying to win too. He’ll play, but he’s gonna have to earn it.”

It seems pretty clear from Doc's quotes that Diamond wasn't putting in the work required to be a D-League player, let alone an NBA player. He's currently back up on the Clips' NBA roster so he must have figured something out.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2017, 02:54:01 PM by MerrittsMustache »

tower912

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2017, 02:54:36 PM »
19 year olds aren't busts.  However, it is fair to say that he has a ways to go before he is ready to contribute in the NBA.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2017, 03:27:09 PM »
It seems pretty clear from Doc's quotes that Diamond wasn't putting in the work required to be a D-League player, let alone an NBA player. He's currently back up on the Clips' NBA roster so he must have figured something out.

He was with them for a week, played a few minutes at the end in a blowout and was sent back down.

Diamond Stone Back with Salt Lake City
Hopefully things go better the second time around...
by Jonathan Hu  Feb 1, 2017, 7:00am PST

http://www.clipsnation.com/2017/2/1/14464660/diamond-stone-back-with-salt-lake-city

The Clippers announced Monday that Diamond Stone had been sent back to the NBA Development League. Stone had been recalled just a week ago. During his short return with the Clippers, Stone did see the court during the Clippers’ blowout loss to the Golden State Warriors. He accumulated approximately five minutes of floor time and compiled 4 points with 1 rebound. On the season he has played a grand total of twenty minutes over five games.

Interestingly Stone was assigned once again to the Salt Lake City Stars. This assignment is interesting given that Stone’s prior stint with the Stars was low-lighted by his lack of playing time. While the Clippers could have sent Stone to any Development League team (like perhaps the Santa Clara Warriors which Stone played with earlier this year), the Clippers decided to send him back to the team that infrequently played him. On that note, we will soon get to see if Stone will be riding the Stars’ bench again as they play tonight at 5:30 PM PST against the Northern Arizona Suns.

Here is his game log

http://stats.nbadleague.com/player/#!/1627754/gamelogs/

Still not starting.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2017, 03:31:53 PM »
19 year olds aren't busts.  However, it is fair to say that he has a ways to go before he is ready to contribute in the NBA.

Agreed, he is not a bust ... but like I said about Henry (who is also not a bust), they are on the road to being a bust but still have time to get off that road.

tower912

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2017, 03:34:16 PM »
I watch Henry again over the weekend.  Starting to show definition in the muscles in his arms.  Starting to try to play defense.  I think he gets regular minutes next year.
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MerrittsMustache

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2017, 03:34:54 PM »
He was with them for a week, played a few minutes at the end in a blowout and was sent back down.

Diamond Stone Back with Salt Lake City
Hopefully things go better the second time around...
by Jonathan Hu  Feb 1, 2017, 7:00am PST

That article is from February 1. Starting or not, those are some pretty good stat lines since that January 13 article (averaging 19-7) which is probably why...

He was called back up last Thursday.
http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/clippers-diamond-stone-recalled-from-d-league-25774855/

He's listed in Saturday's box score as "DNP - Coach's Decision"
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400900213


Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2017, 04:09:29 PM »
That article is from February 1. Starting or not, those are some pretty good stat lines since that January 13 article (averaging 19-7) which is probably why...

He was called back up last Thursday.
http://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/basketball/news/clippers-diamond-stone-recalled-from-d-league-25774855/

He's listed in Saturday's box score as "DNP - Coach's Decision"
http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore/_/id/400900213

Wow, he's called up and down every week but has only see five minutes with the Clippers in the last two months.

From your post ...

Stone likely won't see the floor if the game remains competitive. Stone is a bit buried on the depth chart and probably needs a few injuries to occur higher up before he's given a chance to see a bigger role.

Sounds like they called him up but don't expect to use him.  Maybe they want him "teach" him something (like ... "Diamond, DeAndre makes more in a week than you will all year.  Now watch how hard he works in practice.  You cannot hold his jock so why are you NOT working harder than DAndre?")



RJax55

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2017, 04:17:37 PM »
Agreed, he is not a bust ... but like I said about Henry (who is also not a bust), they are on the road to being a bust but still have time to get off that road.

If Stone doesn't make it, calling him a "bust" would be tough.

From an NBA perspective, he would not be. He was picked 40th overall. That in itself is indicative that the league didn't think too highly of him. Teams aren't drafting guys in the 2nd round with high expectations.

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2017, 04:20:57 PM »
If Stone doesn't make it, calling him a "bust" would be tough.

From an NBA perspective, he would not be. He was picked 40th overall. That in itself is indicative that the league didn't think too highly of him. Teams aren't drafting guys in the 2nd round with high expectations.

Bingo.

2nd rounders who don't make it aren't busts. Period.

EaglesNest

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2017, 05:56:04 PM »
He's behind DeAndre Jordan and Speights who are both good players.  Clippers are more loaded at center than most NBA teams.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2017, 07:44:35 PM »
If Stone doesn't make it, calling him a "bust" would be tough.

From an NBA perspective, he would not be. He was picked 40th overall. That in itself is indicative that the league didn't think too highly of him. Teams aren't drafting guys in the 2nd round with high expectations.

You forgot ... he was a one and done.

one and dones that don't make it are busts.

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2017, 10:21:44 PM »
You forgot ... he was a one and done.

one and dones that don't make it are busts.

What a dumb statement.

He is making more money than just about everyone on this board, so let's talk about who the failures really are. As a matter of fact, I would bet that no one here made $1.5 mil in their first two years in the workforce - even after 4-6-8 years of school. Plus he has no debt from his schooling. He went to college for one reason. To become a professional basketball player. That is what he is now.

One year in college = $1.5 million guaranteed. And I suspect he will sign another contract in 1 1/2 years.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2017, 10:30:52 PM »
What a dumb statement.

He is making more money than just about everyone on this board, so let's talk about who the failures really are. As a matter of fact, I would bet that no one here made $1.5 mil in their first two years in the workforce - even after 4-6-8 years of school. Plus he has no debt from his schooling. He went to college for one reason. To become a professional basketball player. That is what he is now.

One year in college = $1.5 million guaranteed. And I suspect he will sign another contract in 1 1/2 years.

It's about the second contract.  That is where the real money is made.  Does he get a second contract?  If he does, he's not  a bust (note Lazar was a bust for this exact reason).

Would he have been better off staying at Maryland 2 or 3 three years and trying when older and more developed?   Or, is his ceiling far lower than most thought when he was in high school?

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #19 on: February 13, 2017, 10:42:01 PM »
It's about the second contract.  That is where the real money is made.  Does he get a second contract?  If he does, he's not  a bust (note Lazar was a bust for this exact reason).

Would he have been better off staying at Maryland 2 or 3 three years and trying when older and more developed?   Or, is his ceiling far lower than most thought when he was in high school?

Lazar was a bust? In what world?

He was a 6'5" inside, power player in a league where he had to face guys 3" - 6" taller. He had no business even getting to the NBA, but through will and hard work, he did make it for a while making millions of $$$$ in the process.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2017, 10:48:35 PM »
Lazar was a bust? In what world?

He was a 6'5" inside, power player in a league where he had to face guys 3" - 6" taller. He had no business even getting to the NBA, but through will and hard work, he did make it for a while making millions of $$$$ in the process.

First rounder that did not get a second contract.

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2017, 11:46:18 PM »
First rounder that did not get a second contract.


Clueless.

4everwarriors

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2017, 08:18:26 AM »
It's about the second contract.  That is where the real money is made.  Does he get a second contract?  If he does, he's not  a bust (note Lazar was a bust for this exact reason).

Would he have been better off staying at Maryland 2 or 3 three years and trying when older and more developed?   Or, is his ceiling far lower than most thought when he was in high school?


'Cept Stone likely "earned" 3 college credits durin' his first semester plus and woulda bin academically ineligble ta return, ai na?
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2017, 08:27:25 AM »

Clueless.

By your definition, The Packers pick of Tony Mandarich was not a bust.  He got paid!

Good luck with that.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2017, 08:34:59 AM »
No NBA player taken outside the lottery should ever be considered a bust and even that's stretching it. You could probably take it down to outside the top 10.


GoldenDieners32

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2017, 09:25:22 AM »
Usually if a player is one and done he can be considered a bust if his career doesn't take off but he was also a 2nd rounder. Usually no second rounders are considered busts

Pakuni

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2017, 12:39:52 PM »
If you cannot get on the floor in the NBDL ...

Hassan Whiteside averaged a whopping 10 mpg in his first D-League season.
He turned out sort of OK, I think.

Way too soon to tell.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2017, 12:43:17 PM »
No NBA player taken outside the lottery should ever be considered a bust and even that's stretching it. You could probably take it down to outside the top 10.

Wait ... I see the problem. 

I think "bust" means the team picking that player made a mistake.  The team picking a first rounder expects that pick to be productive enough to warrant a second contract.  If not, then that pick was a "bust" from the TEAM's prospective.

You're talking about whether a player is a bust from that players prospective.  I agree it is hard to be a bust when you're getting paid.

Pakuni

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2017, 12:45:41 PM »
First rounder that did not get a second contract.

So by this standard, Lazar Hayward was a bust, but Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were not.
Interesting.

ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2017, 12:53:46 PM »
So by this standard, Lazar Hayward was a bust, but Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were not.
Interesting.

I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Pakuni

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2017, 01:01:33 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Fact is, in the history of the NBA draft, 63 players have been selected at #30 overall, like Lazar.
Of those 63, Lazar ranks 31st in games played. He's actually fared better than the majority of #30 overall picks.
It's asinine to hold a #30 overall pick to the same standard as a #3 or even #13 overall pick when determining "bust-ness."

GGGG

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2017, 01:10:11 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.


In 2010, Lazar was the 30th pick in the draft.  Here are the 5 30th picks before and after him.

2005: David Lee - Still in the league.  Former all star.
2006: Joel Freeland - Made his NBA debut in 2012 and lasted three seasons
2007: Petteri Koponen - Never made the NBA
2008: J.R. Giddens - Played a portion of a couple seasons in the NBA.  Now in Europe
2009: Christian Eyenga - Ditto to Giddens.
2010:  LAZAR!!!
2011: Jimmy Butler - No need to say anything
2012: Festus Ezeli - Regular NBA player
2013: Nemanja Nedović - Portion of one season in NBA. Now in Europe
2014: Kyle Anderson - Rotation player for Spurs
2015: Kevon Looney - Injured last year.  Starting to emerge as a rotation player for Warriors

So here is what you get.  Two all stars (Butler, Lee), one decent player (Ezeli), a couple players with potential (Anderson, Looney), and five guys with careers similar to Lazar's.

My conclusion:  Lazar wasn't a bust.  The 30th pick in the draft is all about potential and most guys don't achieve it so the league moves on.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2017, 01:45:27 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

1st Round picks get 2 years guaranteed, which isn't much. Teams obviously want to find a Jimmy Butler or Kyle Lowry late in the 1st Round but, for the most part, teams are just hoping to find a decent rotation player who they can bring back for his option years at a low salary. They may also look for a Euro diamond-in-the-rough guy who they can stash overseas for a couple years to see if he looks like a player. If not, he stays there with no cap harm done.


brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2017, 02:37:22 PM »
I mean, you're right but I do see Heisey's point here. Lets take the blue and gold tinted glasses off for a second.

Lazar was a pretty crap NBA player for someone drafted in the first round with a guaranteed contract. Whether he is a bust or not, I can accept either argument.

Late 1st rounders are usually drafted with the hope they can develop a skill set that will keep them in the league for a while. Late 1st rounders are almost never looked at as future starters in the NBA.

The best case scenario is a guy like Butler - which is very rare.

Mostly teams "hope" they can find a guy who can develop his game - a la Jae Crowder - and become a viable player. But it is all about finding the right situation.

Stone has no chance this year. He has an All-star and an established, effective player in front of him - 2 guys who play 47.9 minutes a game out of 48.

Stone will make well over $1 million in his first two years. He will learn the defensive end from the best defensive center in the league and has a great coach in Doc. By year three, he will be able to look for a team that needs his talents.

So, should we consider anyone becoming a millionaire within two years of leaving college to be a failure?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #34 on: February 14, 2017, 05:09:24 PM »
Late 1st rounders are usually drafted with the hope they can develop a skill set that will keep them in the league for a while. Late 1st rounders are almost never looked at as future starters in the NBA.

The best case scenario is a guy like Butler - which is very rare.

Mostly teams "hope" they can find a guy who can develop his game - a la Jae Crowder - and become a viable player. But it is all about finding the right situation.

Stone has no chance this year. He has an All-star and an established, effective player in front of him - 2 guys who play 47.9 minutes a game out of 48.

Stone will make well over $1 million in his first two years. He will learn the defensive end from the best defensive center in the league and has a great coach in Doc. By year three, he will be able to look for a team that needs his talents.

So, should we consider anyone becoming a millionaire within two years of leaving college to be a failure?

Again with the point of view from the player ... and you will sing the praises of Tony Mandarich because he got paid so no Packer fan should ever consider him a bust.  And you would argue Pakuni is wrong and Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were all not busts either.

It about the point of view of the team, not the player.

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2017, 05:40:05 PM »
Again with the point of view from the player ... and you will sing the praises of Tony Mandarich because he got paid so no Packer fan should ever consider him a bust.  And you would argue Pakuni is wrong and Kwame Brown, Michael Olowokandi and Darko Milicic were all not busts either.

It about the point of view of the team, not the player.

You really are clueless. You are comparing a "can't miss" Mandarich with guys taken with the 30th and 40 picks in basketball. You are unable to comprehend the difference in the two sports and drafting philosophy. You are simply channeling the banned loser from this board. You argue for the sake of arguing without even having a valid point. and as has been shown in other threads. once you are shown to be wrong, you just grab the biggest shovel you can find and dig deeper.

Mandarich was drafted 2nd OVERALL. So of course he was a bust. Guys drafted after the middle of the 1st round in the NBA are not expected to become starters. If you had any knowledge of the tiers that scouts use in the NBA, you would know this.

Stone was a 2nd round draft pick. 2nd round draft picks are not considered busts. EVER. Jon Leuer is probably the most successful pick taken at #40 over the last dozen years.

GGGG

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2017, 06:42:39 PM »
Stone was a 2nd round draft pick. 2nd round draft picks are not considered busts. EVER. Jon Leuer is probably the most successful pick taken at #40 over the last dozen years.


Since 2000, I would rank him fourth behind Monta Ellis, Earl Watson and Lance Stephenson.  Ahead of Glenn Robinson III.

DegenerateDish

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2017, 09:32:33 PM »
The NBA draft is far and away the most unique draft in sports. Rarely, if ever, do you see a team with multiple first round picks, package those picks together to move up in the draft. Reason being there are such limited superstars ever available, and then the trickle down of talent. Look at the 2016 draft. Simmons we don't know about, Ingram has potential, but there may never be an all star out of that entire class. Does that mean the whole class is a bust? 60 odd guys have to get drafted, the collective talent pool sometimes just sucks.

brandx

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Re: Is Diamond Stone A Bust?
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2017, 07:37:00 AM »

Since 2000, I would rank him fourth behind Monta Ellis, Earl Watson and Lance Stephenson.  Ahead of Glenn Robinson III.

Ellis is obviously the best. I was considering guys coming from college.