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Author Topic: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure  (Read 19229 times)

vogue65

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #175 on: February 17, 2017, 08:48:16 AM »
Yeah because Doc Rivers has no clue about coaching.

Have to run, last time, Wojoe is a great coach, the problem is risk/reward, the university does not want to take the risk one needs to take to be competative in the BE or high level intercolegete basketball.  That does not make them bad or wrong it just makes them conservative.

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #176 on: February 17, 2017, 08:52:16 AM »
Have to run, last time, Wojoe is a great coach, the problem is risk/reward, the university does not want to take the risk one needs to take to be competative in the BE or high level intercolegete basketball.  That does not make them bad or wrong it just makes them conservative.

What risk is the university unwilling to take?
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

TAMU Eagle

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #177 on: February 17, 2017, 08:53:58 AM »
This is on track.  The selection by the BOT was based on image, style and P.R..  Winning and cost were not high on the selection criteria.   More consideration was given to being representative than a win at all or nearly all cost.

I  understand that thinking that a decision can be based on anything besides money and trophies is a serious paradyme shift. 

What we were is not what we are, change is difficult.

No. Ability to win was the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd criteria on their list. They picked the candidate who they thought would build the best program. Was he? Too soon to tell. But of the other coaches who were job searching that year, none have done any better at this point except Buzz, and he wasn't an option. Cuonzo is close but California is a bubble team just like Marquette despite him having a MUCH better starting place.
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Goose

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #178 on: February 17, 2017, 09:05:06 AM »
Obviously Doc had a lot to do in the process and his words carry the most weight. While I love Doc, I am not sure that he is best guy to make a call. Of course he should be part of the process but a few factors come into play regarding him.

#1 The whole thing came down in the middle of NBA season and his time is somewhat limited. He was very active but IMO he was very active and wanted to move the process along ASAP

 #2 Shaka was his guy and when he was lost he went to someone he knew and could get. Wojo and Doc's family have history together and Doc knew he was a great guy. Wojo became the easy pick. He was one Doc's short list from day one.

#3 It is never good to have one guy carry too much weight in a process. Aside from Doc few on the BOT could tell you how far away the free throw line is from the hoop. Little fight back on recommendation within BOT and that is how Buzz also got the job.

All in all, Doc is great guy and great ambassador for MU. That said, he would be one of 4-6 "basketball" people I would have in any hiring process. That is how we got KO and TC and worked out quite well for the program.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 09:08:57 AM by Goose »

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #179 on: February 17, 2017, 09:05:31 AM »
What is becoming clear is there is a vocal but in the minority group of power brokers within MU (BOT/Admin/Donors) that are not happy with where the program is at and/or Wojo as a hire. Those folks are talking to other folks who are  parroting it out into the internet and then people are picking it up from there and treating it as gospel.

Bottom line, all of the people involved in the decision and who decide Wojo's fate are competitive types who expect results. They will not invest as much money as they do in the basketball program and accept long term, middle of the road results. They are also pragmatic and recognize that there was a hill to climb in the post-Buzz era.

You can certainly disagree with decisions that have been made but to ascribe the decisions to some sort of ulterior motive is borderline psychotic.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Sultan of Kookiness

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #180 on: February 17, 2017, 09:08:55 AM »
I really hope that the BOT wouldn't get too "down in the weeds" when it comes to hiring a basketball coach anyway.  They can lay out what the overall philosophy of the program should be, but then let your newly selected President and your experienced interim athletic director, along with a member of your own group who is a former player and current NBA coach make the recommendation. 

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #181 on: February 17, 2017, 09:12:05 AM »
If we're going to re-legislate the Wojo hire, let's really do it. Shaka's off the table, who are you taking other than Wojo? I've seen no evidence that anyone else that was a candidate is outperforming Wojo at this point. Doesn't mean Wojo is awesome, but in the context of what the options are, I'm not convinced that we could have done better.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #182 on: February 17, 2017, 09:21:11 AM »
A thread on the scout board......  The BOT is satisfied with Wojo.    They were put off by the off court attention that occurred under Buzz.    They are pleased that Wojo is bringing in players who, so far, are of high character and are willing to give him several more years to build the program.    So, rant, rave, curse, scheme, whatever.     The powers-that-be wanted the anti-Buzz, believe they have him, and are not in a hurry.

I am sure this is the case - until it isnt.

When do ever hear that a BOT or admin is unhappy with a coach that doesnt lead to almost immediate firing.

Goose

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #183 on: February 17, 2017, 09:28:32 AM »
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

manny31

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #184 on: February 17, 2017, 10:07:28 AM »
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

There you have it. This discussion can go on forever and we can present a narative that Wojo is this or isn't that. Shaka,or whomever would have been a better hire etc etc. I am not saying Wojo is great or will be great, he just isn't going any where soon. I think part of the cause of this whole conversation is that our collective expectations were raise by Buzz generally over achieving. IMHO.

jsglow

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #185 on: February 17, 2017, 10:40:55 AM »
What is becoming clear is there is a vocal but in the minority group of power brokers within MU (BOT/Admin/Donors) that are not happy with where the program is at and/or Wojo as a hire. Those folks are talking to other folks who are  parroting it out into the internet and then people are picking it up from there and treating it as gospel.

Bottom line, all of the people involved in the decision and who decide Wojo's fate are competitive types who expect results. They will not invest as much money as they do in the basketball program and accept long term, middle of the road results. They are also pragmatic and recognize that there was a hill to climb in the post-Buzz era.

You can certainly disagree with decisions that have been made but to ascribe the decisions to some sort of ulterior motive is borderline psychotic.

We're meeting with Bill Scholl and Mike Lovell tomorrow.  I think I'll ask them when MU is canning Steve.   ::)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2017, 10:45:02 AM by jsglow »

Goose

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #186 on: February 17, 2017, 10:45:32 AM »
jsglow

+1

Right now Wojo has a better chance of replacing Coach K at Duke then getting fired. Neither one happening anytime soon.

Sir Lawrence

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #187 on: February 17, 2017, 10:54:45 AM »
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

This is correct. 
Ludum habemus.

skianth16

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #188 on: February 17, 2017, 11:02:34 AM »
There you have it. This discussion can go on forever and we can present a narative that Wojo is this or isn't that. Shaka,or whomever would have been a better hire etc etc. I am not saying Wojo is great or will be great, he just isn't going any where soon. I think part of the cause of this whole conversation is that our collective expectations were raise by Buzz generally over achieving. IMHO.
Did Buzz overachieve, or is he just a better coach? Given what he did at MU and what he's doing at VT, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better coach. He had some learning curve issues at MU in his first season or two, but he was always able to get more out of his teams than was expected. The fact that he got guys like Lazar and Jae into the NBA speaks volumes about his abilities as a coach, IMO.

I don't know that I see Wojo ever being that kind of coach. If anything, Wojo's system seems to have limited some of our better athletes. Maybe he'll have more success with his own recruits. Buzz somehow figured out to coach someone else's guys, though.
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Goose

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #189 on: February 17, 2017, 11:03:47 AM »
Sir

Nice to hear from you. Hope all is well!!

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #190 on: February 17, 2017, 11:38:15 AM »
Did Buzz overachieve, or is he just a better coach? Given what he did at MU and what he's doing at VT, I think it's pretty clear that he's a better coach. He had some learning curve issues at MU in his first season or two, but he was always able to get more out of his teams than was expected. The fact that he got guys like Lazar and Jae into the NBA speaks volumes about his abilities as a coach, IMO.

I don't know that I see Wojo ever being that kind of coach. If anything, Wojo's system seems to have limited some of our better athletes. Maybe he'll have more success with his own recruits. Buzz somehow figured out to coach someone else's guys, though.

I think you'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that Buzz is performing better at VPI than Wojo at MU. Meeting expectations is a different standard as MU has some and VPI does not.

I think Buzz is likely a better coach right now but the margin isn't that wide.
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Sultan of Kookiness

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #191 on: February 17, 2017, 11:41:13 AM »
And did he really "get" guys into the NBA?  Or were they good players and that's how he won with them.

skianth16

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #192 on: February 17, 2017, 11:58:12 AM »
And did he really "get" guys into the NBA?  Or were they good players and that's how he won with them.

Looking at the guys that went pro in the Buzz years - Hayward, Butler, Crowder, Buycks, DJO - I don't think any of those guys would have had the careers they ended up having without Buzz. His style and his brand of basketball pushed these guys to be better than expected. Jimmy might be the exception given his size and natural athletic ability. Just the fact that all of these guys came in as Juco transfers says a lot about their pro prospects to me.

I really think Buzz taught defense right and instilled a work ethic and toughness that got this group to go places they wouldn't have been expected to.
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TAMU Eagle

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #193 on: February 17, 2017, 01:15:51 PM »
I would bet a large sum of money that BOT and admin is happy with Wojo. I do not believe he is anywhere near a hot seat and won't be for a long time. Aside from more success on the court, Wojo has accomplished everything that the school wants from the program.

I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #194 on: February 17, 2017, 01:36:34 PM »
I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.

I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something
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Eldon

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #195 on: February 17, 2017, 01:49:27 PM »
I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something

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MUeagle1090

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #196 on: February 17, 2017, 01:56:49 PM »
I'd wager a large sum of money if there are no NCAAs this year or next that Wojo isn't here after next year barring some sort of unforeseen issue like major injuries or something

Doubt it. No NCAA this year, next and in 2019? Then he's probably gone.

Irrelevant though because we're gonna make it this year.

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #197 on: February 17, 2017, 01:58:44 PM »
Progress has been made in terms of revamping the culture. But the lack of success on the court is the critical measurement. Wojo isn't getting fired this year but there are some who are very concerned.

Frankly, the current product is mediocre.


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Lennys Tap

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #198 on: February 17, 2017, 03:02:26 PM »
I would agree they are happy so far with progress but not necessarily the results. They will need to see those eventually. I would be surprised if wojo is still here after year five if there are no NCAA berths.

Three Marquette coaches have missed the NCAA tournament 3 years in a row since the 1950s. Rick Majerus went to the NIT all three years as head coach, then resigned. Bob Dukiet coached MU to one NIT followed by 2 season not in any tournament and was fired. KO had that same record in his first three years and then had back to back NCAA tournaments before leaving for Tennessee. In the 22 years immediately preceding Wojo we went to 14 NCAAs, 5 NITs and struck out 3 times.

I think we probably get in this year, and I hope it's the beginning of a great run for Wojo. But if he goes 0 for 4 and still has a job, a variation of Hiroshima will have been realized.

mu03eng

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Re: The Dark One Returneth: Wojo Report Card - A Failure
« Reply #199 on: February 17, 2017, 03:19:10 PM »
Doubt it. No NCAA this year, next and in 2019? Then he's probably gone.

Irrelevant though because we're gonna make it this year.

Wojo has full support through this season. If he doesn't make the NCAA this year or next year, the nay sayers will be in more control than the backers at that point. Wojo lacks for nothing in terms of support for the university, and so with our history and support, if he can't return us to the NCAA tournament in his first 5 years....he should be gone. And I say that as one of the biggest Wojo supporters on the board. He's gotta get us in this year or next...if not find someone who can.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."