IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?

[Badgerhater]

I will never understand how Crean was never able to get a highly-rated big man to play with those guys.  Guaranteed playing time, top notch conference, part of great team, etc.  You'd think it would have been a very easy sell.

Just imagine Luke Fischer with Otule as a backup on those teams . . . .

[brewcity77]

This is an interesting prospective because it suggests that Crean, and anyone thinks like him, is a second rate talent.  They need the security blanket of a big name to be a success.

Coach K, Mark Few, Greg Marshall, Greg McDermott think the best job in America, and a top ten job, is whatever job they have.  The will make the job a rich in talent, fertile recruiting and great tradition.

Its the different entrepreneurs and corporate managers.  I believe entrepreneurs are more talented.

See I disagree. Does that mean that Self is a second-rate talent because he took a job like Kansas? He left a national title contender at Illinois to go to Kansas. How about John Calipari? He made it to the Championship Game (vacated) with Memphis but still took the bigger name school in Kentucky. Didn't Buzz seem to think Marquette was a top-ten job when he had it (I'll stay as long as they'll have me) only to switch course and go to what he must have perceived as a smaller job but in a bigger conference? Are Self, Calipari, and Buzz all automatically second-rate?

I think it's entirely possible to want both things. To both want to be regarded as a great coach (Crean's reputation was pretty solid when he was here) and to want the marquee job (which historically Indiana is). I can hardly fault a guy for wanting to both be the best and be at the best location.

[Tugg Speedman]

See I disagree. Does that mean that Self is a second-rate talent because he took a job like Kansas? He left a national title contender at Illinois to go to Kansas. How about John Calipari? He made it to the Championship Game (vacated) with Memphis but still took the bigger name school in Kentucky. Didn't Buzz seem to think Marquette was a top-ten job when he had it (I'll stay as long as they'll have me) only to switch course and go to what he must have perceived as a smaller job but in a bigger conference? Are Self, Calipari, and Buzz all automatically second-rate?

I think it's entirely possible to want both things. To both want to be regarded as a great coach (Crean's reputation was pretty solid when he was here) and to want the marquee job (which historically Indiana is). I can hardly fault a guy for wanting to both be the best and be at the best location.

Self and Calipari showed they could win at every level.  Your argument is Clean felt that MU/Milwaukee/whatever was holding him back and needed the security blanket of I4 to move to the next level.

If you're good you can win at any level.  Cal did it at Mass and Memphis, Self did it at Illinois.

[brewcity77]

Self and Calipari showed they could win at every level.  Your argument is Clean felt that MU/Milwaukee/whatever was holding him back and needed the security blanket of I4 to move to the next level.

If you're good you can win at any level.  Cal did it at Mass and Memphis, Self did it at Illinois.

Okay...that's not my argument. You're putting words in my mouth.

Also, what did they show that Crean didn't? Self was okay at Oral Roberts, did have an Elite Eight at Tulsa and Illinois (with someone else's players), but didn't have a single Final Four to his name. Remember, it was Bruce Weber that took Self's players to the Championship Game after Bill had already left for Kansas. I think Crean, with a Final Four and sustained success in the Big East, had proven as much as Self. As far as Cal, he had longer success at two places, definitely a bit more accomplished, but why leave for Kentucky from Memphis? Wouldn't there be some greater element of security, or some inkling that Memphis, whether because of C-USA, budget constraints, or something else, was inferior to Kentucky and that UK offered greater opportunity?

What I'm arguing is that Crean saw a better opportunity at a institution typically considered to be more marquee in the CBB world and he jumped on it when said opportunity was there. That's all. And is that wrong in any way, shape, or form? And if he hadn't, how many jobs of that ilk have opened since then? The only two I would argue are Kentucky and UCLA. One went to a guy who would have beat him out for the job and the other was well outside his geographic comfort zone.

I can see that you are just trying to belittle him, saying that he was insecure and a second-rate talent, but if you don't acknowledge that Calipari and Self are equally insecure and second-rate, you're just being disingenuous.

[Tugg Speedman]

What I'm arguing is that Crean saw a better opportunity at a institution typically considered to be more marquee in the CBB world and he jumped on it when said opportunity was there. That's all. And is that wrong in any way, shape, or form? And if he hadn't, how many jobs of that ilk have opened since then? The only two I would argue are Kentucky and UCLA. One went to a guy who would have beat him out for the job and the other was well outside his geographic comfort zone.

Can we agree he did not do it for money? MU pays and would have matched his IU salary. 

Can we agree he did not do it for lifestyle?  I see Bloomington as a lateral move from Milwaukee, at best. (If you hate Milwaukee winters you take AZ state, Miami or LSU.  Don't torture all logic convincing everyone Milwaukee to Bloomington is about weather.)

He did it, as you said, because he thought I4 was a more prestigious CBB job.  And with that, it would allow him to get better recruits and have more success on the court than he did at MU. 

But in his 9 years at IU did he have more success than MU? I say no but reasonable people can disagree.  What he has not had is clear and unequivocal better success at the more prestigious IU over MU.

That is what IU failed to see with Crean.  He was making a lateral move or slight uptick by going from Big East MU to B1G IU.  It was not plunking a mid-major coach to move to power conference. 

How do we know this?  Because what were the expectations when they hired him?  Did they say "look at what MU did the last 5 years, if he brings that to Bloomington we will be very happy."  No they thought they were getting Bill Self.  This season was supposed to be their 6th consecutive B1G championship and expectations were have been building for their 4th FF.  Instead they are a bubble team and with 4 of their next 6 games on the road, they are looking at their 5th season of 9 with Crean not in the Tourney.

I believe Crean gave them exactly what he produced at MU.  They expected more. They did not get it.  It's either because Crean "is what he is" and be content vacillating between S16 seasons and no post season.  Or, in the end, IU is really as limiting as MU.  Or, MU provides the same opportunity to succeed as IU.

[dgies9156]

At both Indiana and Marquette Crean has shown his true colors. He is an inconsistent coach.

Both Marquette and Indiana were former elite programs that had stumbled. Both have rabid alumni, a good portion of whom found mediocre to sub-elite program status intolerable. Crean pushed both schools back to near the summit of college basketball.

After his success recruiting and coaching to the summit, his programs reverted to a college basketball mean. This is a mortal sin in Milwaukee and Bloomington and why many denigrate him ihere and want his backside removed in Bloomington.

[Tugg Speedman]

Both Marquette and Indiana were former elite programs that had stumbled. Both have rabid alumni, a good portion of whom found mediocre to sub-elite program status intolerable. Crean pushed both schools back to near the summit of college basketball.

Has Wisconsin become the elite program that everyone thinks IU is?  Is Wisconsin a better job than IU?

If so, isn't this yet another case of the coach makes the program not the program makes the coach?

[willie warrior]

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

Uh oh! A Wardle reference. Soon this thread will explode into a free Wardle discussion, about coming to MU. He could be Wojo's offensive coordinator, while we all know that Wojo has the defense all wired in.

[Sir Lawrence]

http://www.tomcreanbuyout.com/

[keefe]

More success at MU, no question.  Better overall record, more tournament appearances and a Final Four.  And remember - his first few seasons were before they built the Al, so he had crappy practice facilities and amenities.

Frankly, I have never understood the hatred directed towards Coach Thomas Crean. One only need look to his incredible generosity in funding the Marquette soccer facility. It was a unstintingly magnanimous gesture by a man whose very name defines selflessness. Coach Thomas Crean's altruism is humbling.

[77ncaachamps]

Tom Crean did his job: cleaned up IU's image, restored some credibility with that run (albeit ended earlier than it should) with Zeller and Oladipo.

It's time to move on. The cupboard is bare and it shouldn't be at IU.

The empty seats at Assembly is a huge indicator that the guillotine is about to get tripped.

[B. McBannerson]

Why would anyone rate Indiana as an elite program?  How can one be judged elite when they cannot even dominate their conference, let alone be elite nationally?

Going back to 1994 with Bobby Knight, Indiana has won their conference three times.  That is three time  23 years.  That is elite?  Two of those conference titles were Crean's, one by Davis.  Zero by Knight, Dakich or Sampson in that period.  Indiana is not elite and has not been even in the last years of Knight.

The coach makes the program.  Al made Marquette.  Coach K made Duke.  Wooden made UCLA.  The only thing the program does is help to get the next great coach, but the coach makes the program.

[77ncaachamps]

Luckily for us, Buzz was an excellent, over-achieving stop gap after Crean left.

He's recruited fairly well, but a lot of kids and fans look to the NBA as the "proof in the pudding" for their HC selection. So let's look at the NBAers under Crean at IU:

Yogi Ferrell - luckily for Crean, his hot play is keeping TC in a favorable light
Troy Williams - played in 24 games, started 13 this season
Noah Vonleh - played for CHA and now is on POR bench
Victor Oladipo - high-flyer was supposed to be second coming of DWade (to some extent). Traded from ORL to OKC. Is a starter for the Thunder.
Cody Zeller - Drafted by and plays for CHA. Injuries have plagued his young career.

I would not be surprised if TC gets the pass because of injuries this year and the "running a clean ship" as opposed to his predecessor/s. At the same time, the fomenting of IU fans's ire cannot be contained.

[tower912]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

Looks like it was Crean who got run over by the bus today...
<a href="https://youtu.be/BKxcrBuZnkM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtu.be/BKxcrBuZnkM</a>

[Tugg Speedman]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

Stephen Bardo on BTN said he has lost control of his team.

[Jay Bee]

Stephen Bardo on BTN said he has lost control of his team.

Bardo's thoughts have the relevance of my dirty craps, to be fair

[4everwarriors]

He gone couldn't happen to a more deservin' motherfooker, hey?

[keefe]

He gone couldn't happen to a more deservin' motherfooker, hey?

Doc,

The man put Marquette soccer on the map with his generous financial gift. Please consider that when assessing him as man.

[Herman Cain]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

I agree with this analysis.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree with this analysis.

Don't know what would have happened if TC never came?  Maybe MU taps some young guy from Tulsa name Bill Self?  Or mayber they take some guy from Southern Indiana named Bruce Pearl?  Just two name two.

Point is if TC did not take the job, do not assume that we would have had Dukiet 2.0.