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Author Topic: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?  (Read 11738 times)

Tugg Speedman

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2017, 09:22:55 AM »
This discussion begs an interesting question .... Was Crean more successful at MU or IU?

Assume that this is Crean's last year at IU.

That means he was at MU for 9 years and IU for 9 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Crean_(basketball)

In 9 years at MU he was 190-96 (.664)  He made the FF in five NCAA appearances

In 9 years at IU he is (through yesterday) 163-129 (.554) Had #1 ranking, four NCAA appearances, three s16.

I would say if his run at IU ended this season, he had a more successful career at MU than IU.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 09:25:30 AM by Yukon Cornelius »

MU82

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2017, 09:30:28 AM »
People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I like this a lot, especially the part I bolded.

I don't see how what Crean does at IU says a damn thing about Marquette.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2017, 09:31:03 AM »
This discussion begs an interesting question .... Was Crean more successful at MU or IU?

Assume that this is Crean's last year at IU.

That means he was at MU for 9 years and IU for 9 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Crean_(basketball)

In 9 years at MU he was 190-96 (.664)  He made the FF in five NCAA appearances

In 9 years at IU he is (through yesterday) 163-129 (.554) Had #1 ranking, four NCAA appearances, three s16.

I would say if his run at IU ended this season, he had a more successful career at MU than IU.

This topic is considerably more interesting and worthy of hanging at the al than the original post.

It depends on what you're looking for. Sustained success it's definitely IU. Draft picks, IU. Obviously in terms of record you already answered your question.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2017, 09:37:53 AM »
This topic is considerably more interesting and worthy of hanging at the al than the original post.

It depends on what you're looking for. Sustained success it's definitely IU. Draft picks, IU. Obviously in terms of record you already answered your question.

Defined sustained sucess? 

In 9 years at IU he had 4 NCAA appearances, never more than two in a row.  4 other seasons he did not even make the NIT (no post season at all) and we are waiting on outcome of this season.  As of now, it looks like no NCAA again.

In 9 years at MU he had 5 NCAA appearances, and three NIT appearances.  So made post season 8 of 9 years (only missing 2001)

Sustained sucess ... I score this MU.

Draft picks ... IU on that score.  But why doe this matter?


Galway Eagle

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2017, 09:51:14 AM »
Defined sustained sucess? 

In 9 years at IU he had 4 NCAA appearances, never more than two in a row.  4 other seasons he did not even make the NIT (no post season at all) and we are waiting on outcome of this season.  As of now, it looks like no NCAA again.

In 9 years at MU he had 5 NCAA appearances, and three NIT appearances.  So made post season 8 of 9 years (only missing 2001)

Sustained sucess ... I score this MU.

Draft picks ... IU on that score.  But why doe this matter?

You're right, I shouldn't have said sustained success so much as sustained tournament consistency. 3/4 NCAA appearances he made the sweet 16 at IU while he made it out of the opening weekend 1/5 times in the NCAA tournament and 1/3 NITs
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MU82

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2017, 10:03:33 AM »
Given how much easier it is to recruit at Indiana, I'd say he has underperformed there.

Given that we hadn't been to a FF since Al, I'd say he overperformed here. Although take away that one NCAA tourney, he at best performed to expectations here.

Of course, one can't "take away that one NCAA tourney" - and I often make fun of people who say crap like that. So never mind!
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muwarrior69

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2017, 10:09:45 AM »
Used to have this conversation with chicos.  People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I just don't understand how some cannot let this go. The vitriol that some here have for Coach Crean and Coach Williams is beyond the pale. College coaching is a business. How many here would tell your boss you are looking for another job and in the case for Buzz it is a pretty safe assumption that he was encouraged to look elsewhere.

As to the OP it looks like a dead heat with just a tad more success here at MU, but the players like Wade come once in a coaches life time, unless you are named Calipari or Coach K.

Lennys Tap

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2017, 10:21:25 AM »
18 years at Marquette/Indiana, 9 NCAA appearances, 11 total tournament victories, advanced to the second weekend 4 times, 1 FF. To be fair both programs needed serious rebuilds when Crean took the job. But given the two school's histories and commitment to their basketball programs, I'd say his record is decent, ok, pretty good - but nothing special.

cheese ball chaser

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2017, 10:42:35 AM »
Used to have this conversation with chicos.  People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

Golden Avalanche

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2017, 10:52:40 AM »
I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

Roughly, Crean was the first high profile coaching departure (in any sport) where the news of his leaving got out to ESPN and social media prior to the coach being able to tell his team. Today, this is commonplace and never given a second thought of concern.

But in 2008 many people who populate this forum took the stance that Crean purposely avoided telling his players though they have no evidence to back up that opinion. From there, the legend of his "acrimonious" departure has grown more venal only in the minds of bitter MU fans.

P.S. Buzz took a much greater $hit on Marquette on his way out then Crean did. But his "quirky" disposition was endearing to many so they overlook this behavior.

wadesworld

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2017, 11:27:06 AM »
Roughly, Crean was the first high profile coaching departure (in any sport) where the news of his leaving got out to ESPN and social media prior to the coach being able to tell his team. Today, this is commonplace and never given a second thought of concern.

But in 2008 many people who populate this forum took the stance that Crean purposely avoided telling his players though they have no evidence to back up that opinion. From there, the legend of his "acrimonious" departure has grown more venal only in the minds of bitter MU fans.

P.S. Buzz took a much greater $hit on Marquette on his way out then Crean did. But his "quirky" disposition was endearing to many so they overlook this behavior.

Well, Crean did go and clear out his office quite literally at midnight on a week night when nobody else would be around.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2017, 11:35:56 AM »
Given how much easier it is to recruit at Indiana, I'd say he has underperformed there.

Given that we hadn't been to a FF since Al, I'd say he overperformed here. Although take away that one NCAA tourney, he at best performed to expectations here.

Of course, one can't "take away that one NCAA tourney" - and I often make fun of people who say crap like that. So never mind!

Interesting ...

If you want to exclude best year at MU, 2003 with the FF, then exclude his best year at IU too ... the year they were #1 with Cody Zeller as well.

Now Crean has 8 years at IU with three NCAAs (all s16) and FOUR SEASONS WITH NO POST SEASON AT ALL (with this year looking like another no Tourney season). 

That's not very good


brewcity77

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2017, 11:39:42 AM »
I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

This sums it up perfectly for me. Not sure why there's till the need for the constant "Crean sucks" posts that seem to have no point other than to balloon the posters post count. He helped elevate our program, he got us back into the spotlight, he left. Not sure what more needs to be said.

As far as more success, I'd say Indiana, simply because the program was at so much lower a level when he arrived. The level of success is pretty similar, recruited a little better there and had more NCAA success, though he had the one big run here and ultimately his best player at Marquette.

I think the rebuild is really his specialty. I think after this year, a spot like Arkansas or Penn State could suit him well. Programs where he won't have to have instant success and where basketball is the clear second fiddle. He can take his time to rebuild. One dark horse spot I could see is Georgetown. He's done well rebuilding broken brands, that might be a mutually attractive option for both parties.
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KampusFoods

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2017, 11:57:57 AM »
This sums it up perfectly for me. Not sure why there's till the need for the constant "Crean sucks" posts that seem to have no point other than to balloon the posters post count. He helped elevate our program, he got us back into the spotlight, he left. Not sure what more needs to be said.

As far as more success, I'd say Indiana, simply because the program was at so much lower a level when he arrived. The level of success is pretty similar, recruited a little better there and had more NCAA success, though he had the one big run here and ultimately his best player at Marquette.

I think the rebuild is really his specialty. I think after this year, a spot like Arkansas or Penn State could suit him well. Programs where he won't have to have instant success and where basketball is the clear second fiddle. He can take his time to rebuild. One dark horse spot I could see is Georgetown. He's done well rebuilding broken brands, that might be a mutually attractive option for both parties.

Crean at the BC once a year? That should boost the attendance everyone's been b!tchin about

Galway Eagle

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2017, 11:59:10 AM »
I think part of the issue with Crean wasn't that he left for a high profile school but that he left the team that had the most potential and it felt like more than just a small slight. If he had pulled an O'neil and left after his big potential guys graduated I'm not sure the feeling would be as negative.
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MU82

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Re: IU Question
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2017, 12:01:04 PM »
I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

You talkin' 'bout Crean ... or chicos?!?!?!?
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Badgerhater

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2017, 12:23:20 PM »
A decent coach who is better than most but won't be remember long in the hoops world after he is out of coaching.

If the Three Amigos had any luck at all in tourney play, history and this conversation would have been very different.

CTWarrior

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2017, 12:30:20 PM »
If the Three Amigos had any luck at all in tourney play, history and this conversation would have been very different.

I will never understand how Crean was never able to get a highly-rated big man to play with those guys.  Guaranteed playing time, top notch conference, part of great team, etc.  You'd think it would have been a very easy sell.
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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2017, 12:39:16 PM »
Success vs. alumni expectations - MU hands down.  Final Four, Big East, Al...all achievable because of resources from Wild and execution from Crean.  Alums had been pretty beaten down by the 80's/90's.

Absolute success...I'd have to say he has done a little better at IU - consistency was better once he got past the Kelvin Sampson morass and got much better players.  It's hard to just look at w/l since they are in a better conference than MU was and probably in a worse starting point due to Kelvin.

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2017, 12:41:52 PM »
More success at MU, no question.  Better overall record, more tournament appearances and a Final Four.  And remember - his first few seasons were before they built the Al, so he had crappy practice facilities and amenities.

barfolomew

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2017, 12:44:37 PM »
A decent coach who is better than most but won't be remember long in the hoops world after he is out of coaching.

The man hoarded end-of-game timeouts as if he thought he could cash them in at the end of the year like unused vacation days.
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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2017, 12:46:50 PM »
Success vs. alumni expectations - MU hands down.  Final Four, Big East, Al...all achievable because of resources from Wild and execution from Crean.  Alums had been pretty beaten down by the 80's/90's.

Absolute success...I'd have to say he has done a little better at IU - consistency was better once he got past the Kelvin Sampson morass and got much better players.  It's hard to just look at w/l since they are in a better conference than MU was and probably in a worse starting point due to Kelvin.

The "better conference" is debatable.

C-USA was not as good as the BT, although there were quite a few strong teams toward the end.  Then he pulled off what NOBODY thought could be done - transitioned MU into the best basketball conference ever built without missing a beat. 

And by the way, TC's winning percentage in the BE those three years was .620.  His BT winning percentage is .442.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2017, 12:56:49 PM »
The "better conference" is debatable.

C-USA was not as good as the BT, although there were quite a few strong teams toward the end.  Then he pulled off what NOBODY thought could be done - transitioned MU into the best basketball conference ever built without missing a beat. 

And by the way, TC's winning percentage in the BE those three years was .620.  His BT winning percentage is .442.

My point was more that competing in the Big Ten with a rebuilding team (first 3 years) is a much harder conference than the CUSA with a rebuilding team (first 3 years). 

Crean was great in the Big East.  In fact coming off two straight NIT performances he shocked the alumni base once again with that Freshman 3 Amigo team.

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2017, 01:25:27 PM »
I think part of the issue with Crean wasn't that he left for a high profile school but that he left the team that had the most potential and it felt like more than just a small slight. If he had pulled an O'neil and left after his big potential guys graduated I'm not sure the feeling would be as negative.

It's all about timing. Indiana may not be North Carolina, Kansas, or Kentucky, but it's right behind those with UCLA and Duke. A place where you can create and sustain success, fertile recruiting bed, and a rich history. If he waits another year, the IU job would already be filled. I know we like to belittle IU, mostly because of Crean, but I'd say it's a top-10 job. 10th in all-time wins, 5 NCAA titles, 8 Final Fours, it's a place where you can build an elite program.

What comparable job could he have landed since then? UNC, Duke, Louisville, Michigan State, and Kansas haven't had coaching changes. Kentucky, maybe? Not sure he'd have beaten out Cal for that. UCLA? Not sure he'd fit in Los Angeles. He had his chance and took it. I didn't like it at the time, felt it was a bit of a slap in the face, but hard to begrudge in retrospect.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2017, 02:36:29 PM »
It's all about timing. Indiana may not be North Carolina, Kansas, or Kentucky, but it's right behind those with UCLA and Duke. A place where you can create and sustain success, fertile recruiting bed, and a rich history. If he waits another year, the IU job would already be filled. I know we like to belittle IU, mostly because of Crean, but I'd say it's a top-10 job. 10th in all-time wins, 5 NCAA titles, 8 Final Fours, it's a place where you can build an elite program.

What comparable job could he have landed since then? UNC, Duke, Louisville, Michigan State, and Kansas haven't had coaching changes. Kentucky, maybe? Not sure he'd have beaten out Cal for that. UCLA? Not sure he'd fit in Los Angeles. He had his chance and took it. I didn't like it at the time, felt it was a bit of a slap in the face, but hard to begrudge in retrospect.

This is an interesting prospective because it suggests that Crean, and anyone thinks like him, is a second rate talent.  They need the security blanket of a big name to be a success.

Coach K, Mark Few, Greg Marshall, Greg McDermott think the best job in America, and a top ten job, is whatever job they have.  The will make the job a rich in talent, fertile recruiting and great tradition.

Its the different entrepreneurs and corporate managers.  I believe entrepreneurs are more talented.

 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2017, 03:30:53 PM by Yukon Cornelius »