IU Question - Was Crean More Successful at MU or IU?

[Tugg Speedman]

Out of this post came a very interesting question, was Crean more successful in his 9 years at MU or in his (currently) 9 years at IU?
Discussion starts on post 25

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=53482.msg897908#msg897908

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Week three IU was ranked #3.  Then they lost to Fort Wayne (!)

Currently they are 15-10 (5-7).  Tonight lost at home to Purdue.  Unless they start winning, they are out of the Tourney.  Problem is they have 6 regular-season games left -- 4 on the road.

If we were ranked #3 in December and were not dancing in March, I could only imagine the meltdown this board would be having and calls for the coach's head would be a full-throat scream. 

Does Crean survive?  Should he survive?

[dgies9156]

fire Crean -- no really!

[4everwarriors]

Crean sucks

[tower912]

Lots of injuries,  inability to have a replacement in place for Yogi Ferrell.  Seat warming.

[GoldenDieners32]

Has a team that was ranked that high at the beginning of the season not made the tourney before?

[Tugg Speedman]

Has a team that was ranked that high at the beginning of the season not made the tourney before?

Kentucky in 2012/2013.  Also was as high as #3 (after winning the NC the year before).  They went to the NIT and lost to Robert Morris in the first round.

Kentucky suffered devastating injuries (Nerlens Noel was the big one)

[GoldenDieners32]

Kentucky in 2012/2013.  Also was as high as #3 (after winning the NC the year before).  They went to the NIT and lost to Robert Morris in the first round.

Kentucky suffered devastating injuries (Nerlens Noel was the big one)

Didn't even think of that one, i remember that.

[MU82]

Kentucky in 2012/2013.  Also was as high as #3 (after winning the NC the year before).  They went to the NIT and lost to Robert Morris in the first round.

Kentucky suffered devastating injuries (Nerlens Noel was the big one)

It is a similar situation ... except Crean hasn't even come close to sniffing the national title. His one FF team lost by 827 points to Kansas. His best Indiana team lost to Syracuse in the Sweet 16, which is too bad because we woulda smoked the Hoosiers and gotten to the FF!

[Herman Cain]

I like to see all of our former coaches, players, recruits etc do well. I  think it ultimately reflects well on MU. So I hope Indiana rallies, makes the tournament and keeps his job.

[wadesworld]

Superbar.

I like to see all of our former coaches, players, recruits etc do well. I  think it ultimately reflects well on MU. So I hope Indiana rallies, makes the tournament and keeps his job.

I don't think it reflects on Marquette in any way.

[Galway Eagle]

I like to see all of our former coaches, players, recruits etc do well. I  think it ultimately reflects well on MU. So I hope Indiana rallies, makes the tournament and keeps his job.

how? I don't actively root against our former coaches or recruits but them doing well in no way reflects on MU. Lets say a player leaves and does great, it would actually be a negative reflection on our staff that we couldn't recognize it or utilize that player's strengths.

Now if you're talking about players that graduated or left early (vander) then absolutely it's a great reflection upon the university.

[Herman Cain]

how? I don't actively root against our former coaches or recruits but them doing well in no way reflects on MU. Lets say a player leaves and does great, it would actually be a negative reflection on our staff that we couldn't recognize it or utilize that player's strengths.

Now if you're talking about players that graduated or left early (vander) then absolutely it's a great reflection upon the university.

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

[Silkk the Shaka]

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

Crean has success at MU but fails at Indiana = MU > IU

Zero sum game my man. Thanks for what you did at MU, but if you're not here I want you to fail. Makes MU as a program look better.

This applies to former head coaches only. Ex players & assistants I want to succeed to the Wade/Butler/Crowder/Matthews level. Best of the best.

[MUrugger]

Wardle has never crapped on MU. The other guy did.

[wadesworld]

I never, ever think about what Roy Williams did at Kansas (other than beating Tommy by 50 in the FF) or what Bill Self did at Illinois or even what Cal did at Memphis or UMass.  I couldn't care less.  I can't imagine too many casual college basketball fans, or even IU or rival of IU fans, are watching IU games and thinking, "Ahh, I miss those Crean coached MU teams with Wade, Diener, Novak, Robert Jackson, etc.!"

[muguru]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

[brewcity77]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

+1

Crean did many great things for the program. He was a salesman when we needed one. After Deane, the wrong hire could've sent us back to the Dukiet days. Crean was the right guy at the right time and gave us almost a decade of service.

No one likes the breakup, but marriages rarely last forever these days anyway. Better to remember the good times than belabor the bad.

EDIT: To answer the OP, I think he needs to go 4-2. Best news is the two toughest games are at home (other than Purdue, but I don't see that as winnable). If he makes the tournament, I think he gets another year. If not, probably gone in this "what have you done for me lately" era.

I think his greatest strength is building a program up. He can recruit, gameplan, and motivate the team and fans, but doesn't quite have that "next level". I think he'll eventually be out there, but would do great long term at a program that didn't have titles and Final Fours in their history.

[wadesworld]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

How do you know none of those things happen? Does the program just cease to exist if we don't hire Crean? Or do we hire a different guy who has a chance to coach at Marquette?

[avid1010]

+1

Crean did many great things for the program. He was a salesman when we needed one. After Deane, the wrong hire could've sent us back to the Dukiet days. Crean was the right guy at the right time and gave us almost a decade of service.

No one likes the breakup, but marriages rarely last forever these days anyway. Better to remember the good times than belabor the bad.

EDIT: To answer the OP, I think he needs to go 4-2. Best news is the two toughest games are at home (other than Purdue, but I don't see that as winnable). If he makes the tournament, I think he gets another year. If not, probably gone in this "what have you done for me lately" era.

I think his greatest strength is building a program up. He can recruit, gameplan, and motivate the team and fans, but doesn't quite have that "next level". I think he'll eventually be out there, but would do great long term at a program that didn't have titles and Final Fours in their history.

Used to have this conversation with chicos.  People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

[sailwi]

IIRC his buyout goes way down sometime this summer so from a financial perspective spring is the wrong time to fire him so he likely gets one more year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Every year since he left there has been some thread about how this is the year Crean gets fired. One year, it'll be right.

[4everwarriors]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

Oh pleez, da ahole is a pus sak on one's gurkee, hey?

[Galway Eagle]

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

I wasn't referring to coaches. Only transfer players. They leave it makes us either look like we're below another program (Iowa state) or that we cut players to make room for new ones (steve Taylor) if we had a guy graduate in 3yrs and transfer like Katin then I could see rooting for him but other than that it's not a good reflection.

Back to the OP, Crean isn't getting fired after winning the big ten last year. Sure he's still on the hot seat but if they miss then it's 4/6 years he's got NCAA appearances, 3 of those sweet 16s and two of those he won the B1G. It's not IU standards but not bad enough to get fired either.

[Jay Bee]

The chatter I've been hearing over the past week makes me believe the seat is truly warm (nh)

[Dawson Rental]

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

Are you really saying that it would be a good thing for MU basketball to be to college basketball what Miami of Ohio football is to college football?

[Tugg Speedman]

This discussion begs an interesting question .... Was Crean more successful at MU or IU?

Assume that this is Crean's last year at IU.

That means he was at MU for 9 years and IU for 9 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Crean_(basketball)

In 9 years at MU he was 190-96 (.664)  He made the FF in five NCAA appearances

In 9 years at IU he is (through yesterday) 163-129 (.554) Had #1 ranking, four NCAA appearances, three s16.

I would say if his run at IU ended this season, he had a more successful career at MU than IU.

[MU82]

People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I like this a lot, especially the part I bolded.

I don't see how what Crean does at IU says a damn thing about Marquette.

[Galway Eagle]

This discussion begs an interesting question .... Was Crean more successful at MU or IU?

Assume that this is Crean's last year at IU.

That means he was at MU for 9 years and IU for 9 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Crean_(basketball)

In 9 years at MU he was 190-96 (.664)  He made the FF in five NCAA appearances

In 9 years at IU he is (through yesterday) 163-129 (.554) Had #1 ranking, four NCAA appearances, three s16.

I would say if his run at IU ended this season, he had a more successful career at MU than IU.

This topic is considerably more interesting and worthy of hanging at the al than the original post.

It depends on what you're looking for. Sustained success it's definitely IU. Draft picks, IU. Obviously in terms of record you already answered your question.

[Tugg Speedman]

This topic is considerably more interesting and worthy of hanging at the al than the original post.

It depends on what you're looking for. Sustained success it's definitely IU. Draft picks, IU. Obviously in terms of record you already answered your question.

Defined sustained sucess? 

In 9 years at IU he had 4 NCAA appearances, never more than two in a row.  4 other seasons he did not even make the NIT (no post season at all) and we are waiting on outcome of this season.  As of now, it looks like no NCAA again.

In 9 years at MU he had 5 NCAA appearances, and three NIT appearances.  So made post season 8 of 9 years (only missing 2001)

Sustained sucess ... I score this MU.

Draft picks ... IU on that score.  But why doe this matter?

[Galway Eagle]

Defined sustained sucess? 

In 9 years at IU he had 4 NCAA appearances, never more than two in a row.  4 other seasons he did not even make the NIT (no post season at all) and we are waiting on outcome of this season.  As of now, it looks like no NCAA again.

In 9 years at MU he had 5 NCAA appearances, and three NIT appearances.  So made post season 8 of 9 years (only missing 2001)

Sustained sucess ... I score this MU.

Draft picks ... IU on that score.  But why doe this matter?

You're right, I shouldn't have said sustained success so much as sustained tournament consistency. 3/4 NCAA appearances he made the sweet 16 at IU while he made it out of the opening weekend 1/5 times in the NCAA tournament and 1/3 NITs

[MU82]

Given how much easier it is to recruit at Indiana, I'd say he has underperformed there.

Given that we hadn't been to a FF since Al, I'd say he overperformed here. Although take away that one NCAA tourney, he at best performed to expectations here.

Of course, one can't "take away that one NCAA tourney" - and I often make fun of people who say crap like that. So never mind!

[muwarrior69]

Used to have this conversation with chicos.  People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I just don't understand how some cannot let this go. The vitriol that some here have for Coach Crean and Coach Williams is beyond the pale. College coaching is a business. How many here would tell your boss you are looking for another job and in the case for Buzz it is a pretty safe assumption that he was encouraged to look elsewhere.

As to the OP it looks like a dead heat with just a tad more success here at MU, but the players like Wade come once in a coaches life time, unless you are named Calipari or Coach K.

[Lennys Tap]

18 years at Marquette/Indiana, 9 NCAA appearances, 11 total tournament victories, advanced to the second weekend 4 times, 1 FF. To be fair both programs needed serious rebuilds when Crean took the job. But given the two school's histories and commitment to their basketball programs, I'd say his record is decent, ok, pretty good - but nothing special.

[cheese ball chaser]

Used to have this conversation with chicos.  People are well aware of what TC did at MU.  Amazing that he could do it here and struggle so much at IU.  All that said...when you act the way he did, and you leave the way he did, you're nothing short of a prick.  Not many people argue that...MU's FF was amazing...TC is a prick.  Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.  I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

[Golden Avalanche]

I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

Roughly, Crean was the first high profile coaching departure (in any sport) where the news of his leaving got out to ESPN and social media prior to the coach being able to tell his team. Today, this is commonplace and never given a second thought of concern.

But in 2008 many people who populate this forum took the stance that Crean purposely avoided telling his players though they have no evidence to back up that opinion. From there, the legend of his "acrimonious" departure has grown more venal only in the minds of bitter MU fans.

P.S. Buzz took a much greater $hit on Marquette on his way out then Crean did. But his "quirky" disposition was endearing to many so they overlook this behavior.

[wadesworld]

Roughly, Crean was the first high profile coaching departure (in any sport) where the news of his leaving got out to ESPN and social media prior to the coach being able to tell his team. Today, this is commonplace and never given a second thought of concern.

But in 2008 many people who populate this forum took the stance that Crean purposely avoided telling his players though they have no evidence to back up that opinion. From there, the legend of his "acrimonious" departure has grown more venal only in the minds of bitter MU fans.

P.S. Buzz took a much greater $hit on Marquette on his way out then Crean did. But his "quirky" disposition was endearing to many so they overlook this behavior.

Well, Crean did go and clear out his office quite literally at midnight on a week night when nobody else would be around.

[Tugg Speedman]

Given how much easier it is to recruit at Indiana, I'd say he has underperformed there.

Given that we hadn't been to a FF since Al, I'd say he overperformed here. Although take away that one NCAA tourney, he at best performed to expectations here.

Of course, one can't "take away that one NCAA tourney" - and I often make fun of people who say crap like that. So never mind!

Interesting ...

If you want to exclude best year at MU, 2003 with the FF, then exclude his best year at IU too ... the year they were #1 with Cody Zeller as well.

Now Crean has 8 years at IU with three NCAAs (all s16) and FOUR SEASONS WITH NO POST SEASON AT ALL (with this year looking like another no Tourney season). 

That's not very good

[brewcity77]

I'm glad we had him, and i'm even happier he is now gone.

This sums it up perfectly for me. Not sure why there's till the need for the constant "Crean sucks" posts that seem to have no point other than to balloon the posters post count. He helped elevate our program, he got us back into the spotlight, he left. Not sure what more needs to be said.

As far as more success, I'd say Indiana, simply because the program was at so much lower a level when he arrived. The level of success is pretty similar, recruited a little better there and had more NCAA success, though he had the one big run here and ultimately his best player at Marquette.

I think the rebuild is really his specialty. I think after this year, a spot like Arkansas or Penn State could suit him well. Programs where he won't have to have instant success and where basketball is the clear second fiddle. He can take his time to rebuild. One dark horse spot I could see is Georgetown. He's done well rebuilding broken brands, that might be a mutually attractive option for both parties.

[KampusFoods]

This sums it up perfectly for me. Not sure why there's till the need for the constant "Crean sucks" posts that seem to have no point other than to balloon the posters post count. He helped elevate our program, he got us back into the spotlight, he left. Not sure what more needs to be said.

As far as more success, I'd say Indiana, simply because the program was at so much lower a level when he arrived. The level of success is pretty similar, recruited a little better there and had more NCAA success, though he had the one big run here and ultimately his best player at Marquette.

I think the rebuild is really his specialty. I think after this year, a spot like Arkansas or Penn State could suit him well. Programs where he won't have to have instant success and where basketball is the clear second fiddle. He can take his time to rebuild. One dark horse spot I could see is Georgetown. He's done well rebuilding broken brands, that might be a mutually attractive option for both parties.

Crean at the BC once a year? That should boost the attendance everyone's been b!tchin about

[Galway Eagle]

I think part of the issue with Crean wasn't that he left for a high profile school but that he left the team that had the most potential and it felt like more than just a small slight. If he had pulled an O'neil and left after his big potential guys graduated I'm not sure the feeling would be as negative.

[MU82]

I don't know that much about the nature of his departure. What did he do that angered people so much?

You talkin' 'bout Crean ... or chicos?!?!?!?

[Badgerhater]

A decent coach who is better than most but won't be remember long in the hoops world after he is out of coaching.

If the Three Amigos had any luck at all in tourney play, history and this conversation would have been very different.

[CTWarrior]

If the Three Amigos had any luck at all in tourney play, history and this conversation would have been very different.

I will never understand how Crean was never able to get a highly-rated big man to play with those guys.  Guaranteed playing time, top notch conference, part of great team, etc.  You'd think it would have been a very easy sell.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Success vs. alumni expectations - MU hands down.  Final Four, Big East, Al...all achievable because of resources from Wild and execution from Crean.  Alums had been pretty beaten down by the 80's/90's.

Absolute success...I'd have to say he has done a little better at IU - consistency was better once he got past the Kelvin Sampson morass and got much better players.  It's hard to just look at w/l since they are in a better conference than MU was and probably in a worse starting point due to Kelvin.

[GooooMarquette]

More success at MU, no question.  Better overall record, more tournament appearances and a Final Four.  And remember - his first few seasons were before they built the Al, so he had crappy practice facilities and amenities.

[barfolomew]

A decent coach who is better than most but won't be remember long in the hoops world after he is out of coaching.

The man hoarded end-of-game timeouts as if he thought he could cash them in at the end of the year like unused vacation days.

[GooooMarquette]

Success vs. alumni expectations - MU hands down.  Final Four, Big East, Al...all achievable because of resources from Wild and execution from Crean.  Alums had been pretty beaten down by the 80's/90's.

Absolute success...I'd have to say he has done a little better at IU - consistency was better once he got past the Kelvin Sampson morass and got much better players.  It's hard to just look at w/l since they are in a better conference than MU was and probably in a worse starting point due to Kelvin.

The "better conference" is debatable.

C-USA was not as good as the BT, although there were quite a few strong teams toward the end.  Then he pulled off what NOBODY thought could be done - transitioned MU into the best basketball conference ever built without missing a beat. 

And by the way, TC's winning percentage in the BE those three years was .620.  His BT winning percentage is .442.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

The "better conference" is debatable.

C-USA was not as good as the BT, although there were quite a few strong teams toward the end.  Then he pulled off what NOBODY thought could be done - transitioned MU into the best basketball conference ever built without missing a beat. 

And by the way, TC's winning percentage in the BE those three years was .620.  His BT winning percentage is .442.

My point was more that competing in the Big Ten with a rebuilding team (first 3 years) is a much harder conference than the CUSA with a rebuilding team (first 3 years). 

Crean was great in the Big East.  In fact coming off two straight NIT performances he shocked the alumni base once again with that Freshman 3 Amigo team.

[brewcity77]

I think part of the issue with Crean wasn't that he left for a high profile school but that he left the team that had the most potential and it felt like more than just a small slight. If he had pulled an O'neil and left after his big potential guys graduated I'm not sure the feeling would be as negative.

It's all about timing. Indiana may not be North Carolina, Kansas, or Kentucky, but it's right behind those with UCLA and Duke. A place where you can create and sustain success, fertile recruiting bed, and a rich history. If he waits another year, the IU job would already be filled. I know we like to belittle IU, mostly because of Crean, but I'd say it's a top-10 job. 10th in all-time wins, 5 NCAA titles, 8 Final Fours, it's a place where you can build an elite program.

What comparable job could he have landed since then? UNC, Duke, Louisville, Michigan State, and Kansas haven't had coaching changes. Kentucky, maybe? Not sure he'd have beaten out Cal for that. UCLA? Not sure he'd fit in Los Angeles. He had his chance and took it. I didn't like it at the time, felt it was a bit of a slap in the face, but hard to begrudge in retrospect.

[Tugg Speedman]

It's all about timing. Indiana may not be North Carolina, Kansas, or Kentucky, but it's right behind those with UCLA and Duke. A place where you can create and sustain success, fertile recruiting bed, and a rich history. If he waits another year, the IU job would already be filled. I know we like to belittle IU, mostly because of Crean, but I'd say it's a top-10 job. 10th in all-time wins, 5 NCAA titles, 8 Final Fours, it's a place where you can build an elite program.

What comparable job could he have landed since then? UNC, Duke, Louisville, Michigan State, and Kansas haven't had coaching changes. Kentucky, maybe? Not sure he'd have beaten out Cal for that. UCLA? Not sure he'd fit in Los Angeles. He had his chance and took it. I didn't like it at the time, felt it was a bit of a slap in the face, but hard to begrudge in retrospect.

This is an interesting prospective because it suggests that Crean, and anyone thinks like him, is a second rate talent.  They need the security blanket of a big name to be a success.

Coach K, Mark Few, Greg Marshall, Greg McDermott think the best job in America, and a top ten job, is whatever job they have.  The will make the job a rich in talent, fertile recruiting and great tradition.

Its the different entrepreneurs and corporate managers.  I believe entrepreneurs are more talented.

 

[Badgerhater]

I will never understand how Crean was never able to get a highly-rated big man to play with those guys.  Guaranteed playing time, top notch conference, part of great team, etc.  You'd think it would have been a very easy sell.

Just imagine Luke Fischer with Otule as a backup on those teams . . . .

[brewcity77]

This is an interesting prospective because it suggests that Crean, and anyone thinks like him, is a second rate talent.  They need the security blanket of a big name to be a success.

Coach K, Mark Few, Greg Marshall, Greg McDermott think the best job in America, and a top ten job, is whatever job they have.  The will make the job a rich in talent, fertile recruiting and great tradition.

Its the different entrepreneurs and corporate managers.  I believe entrepreneurs are more talented.

See I disagree. Does that mean that Self is a second-rate talent because he took a job like Kansas? He left a national title contender at Illinois to go to Kansas. How about John Calipari? He made it to the Championship Game (vacated) with Memphis but still took the bigger name school in Kentucky. Didn't Buzz seem to think Marquette was a top-ten job when he had it (I'll stay as long as they'll have me) only to switch course and go to what he must have perceived as a smaller job but in a bigger conference? Are Self, Calipari, and Buzz all automatically second-rate?

I think it's entirely possible to want both things. To both want to be regarded as a great coach (Crean's reputation was pretty solid when he was here) and to want the marquee job (which historically Indiana is). I can hardly fault a guy for wanting to both be the best and be at the best location.

[Tugg Speedman]

See I disagree. Does that mean that Self is a second-rate talent because he took a job like Kansas? He left a national title contender at Illinois to go to Kansas. How about John Calipari? He made it to the Championship Game (vacated) with Memphis but still took the bigger name school in Kentucky. Didn't Buzz seem to think Marquette was a top-ten job when he had it (I'll stay as long as they'll have me) only to switch course and go to what he must have perceived as a smaller job but in a bigger conference? Are Self, Calipari, and Buzz all automatically second-rate?

I think it's entirely possible to want both things. To both want to be regarded as a great coach (Crean's reputation was pretty solid when he was here) and to want the marquee job (which historically Indiana is). I can hardly fault a guy for wanting to both be the best and be at the best location.

Self and Calipari showed they could win at every level.  Your argument is Clean felt that MU/Milwaukee/whatever was holding him back and needed the security blanket of I4 to move to the next level.

If you're good you can win at any level.  Cal did it at Mass and Memphis, Self did it at Illinois.

[brewcity77]

Self and Calipari showed they could win at every level.  Your argument is Clean felt that MU/Milwaukee/whatever was holding him back and needed the security blanket of I4 to move to the next level.

If you're good you can win at any level.  Cal did it at Mass and Memphis, Self did it at Illinois.

Okay...that's not my argument. You're putting words in my mouth.

Also, what did they show that Crean didn't? Self was okay at Oral Roberts, did have an Elite Eight at Tulsa and Illinois (with someone else's players), but didn't have a single Final Four to his name. Remember, it was Bruce Weber that took Self's players to the Championship Game after Bill had already left for Kansas. I think Crean, with a Final Four and sustained success in the Big East, had proven as much as Self. As far as Cal, he had longer success at two places, definitely a bit more accomplished, but why leave for Kentucky from Memphis? Wouldn't there be some greater element of security, or some inkling that Memphis, whether because of C-USA, budget constraints, or something else, was inferior to Kentucky and that UK offered greater opportunity?

What I'm arguing is that Crean saw a better opportunity at a institution typically considered to be more marquee in the CBB world and he jumped on it when said opportunity was there. That's all. And is that wrong in any way, shape, or form? And if he hadn't, how many jobs of that ilk have opened since then? The only two I would argue are Kentucky and UCLA. One went to a guy who would have beat him out for the job and the other was well outside his geographic comfort zone.

I can see that you are just trying to belittle him, saying that he was insecure and a second-rate talent, but if you don't acknowledge that Calipari and Self are equally insecure and second-rate, you're just being disingenuous.

[Tugg Speedman]

What I'm arguing is that Crean saw a better opportunity at a institution typically considered to be more marquee in the CBB world and he jumped on it when said opportunity was there. That's all. And is that wrong in any way, shape, or form? And if he hadn't, how many jobs of that ilk have opened since then? The only two I would argue are Kentucky and UCLA. One went to a guy who would have beat him out for the job and the other was well outside his geographic comfort zone.

Can we agree he did not do it for money? MU pays and would have matched his IU salary. 

Can we agree he did not do it for lifestyle?  I see Bloomington as a lateral move from Milwaukee, at best. (If you hate Milwaukee winters you take AZ state, Miami or LSU.  Don't torture all logic convincing everyone Milwaukee to Bloomington is about weather.)

He did it, as you said, because he thought I4 was a more prestigious CBB job.  And with that, it would allow him to get better recruits and have more success on the court than he did at MU. 

But in his 9 years at IU did he have more success than MU? I say no but reasonable people can disagree.  What he has not had is clear and unequivocal better success at the more prestigious IU over MU.

That is what IU failed to see with Crean.  He was making a lateral move or slight uptick by going from Big East MU to B1G IU.  It was not plunking a mid-major coach to move to power conference. 

How do we know this?  Because what were the expectations when they hired him?  Did they say "look at what MU did the last 5 years, if he brings that to Bloomington we will be very happy."  No they thought they were getting Bill Self.  This season was supposed to be their 6th consecutive B1G championship and expectations were have been building for their 4th FF.  Instead they are a bubble team and with 4 of their next 6 games on the road, they are looking at their 5th season of 9 with Crean not in the Tourney.

I believe Crean gave them exactly what he produced at MU.  They expected more. They did not get it.  It's either because Crean "is what he is" and be content vacillating between S16 seasons and no post season.  Or, in the end, IU is really as limiting as MU.  Or, MU provides the same opportunity to succeed as IU.

[dgies9156]

At both Indiana and Marquette Crean has shown his true colors. He is an inconsistent coach.

Both Marquette and Indiana were former elite programs that had stumbled. Both have rabid alumni, a good portion of whom found mediocre to sub-elite program status intolerable. Crean pushed both schools back to near the summit of college basketball.

After his success recruiting and coaching to the summit, his programs reverted to a college basketball mean. This is a mortal sin in Milwaukee and Bloomington and why many denigrate him ihere and want his backside removed in Bloomington.

[Tugg Speedman]

Both Marquette and Indiana were former elite programs that had stumbled. Both have rabid alumni, a good portion of whom found mediocre to sub-elite program status intolerable. Crean pushed both schools back to near the summit of college basketball.

Has Wisconsin become the elite program that everyone thinks IU is?  Is Wisconsin a better job than IU?

If so, isn't this yet another case of the coach makes the program not the program makes the coach?

[willie warrior]

An Example, whenever Crean is doing well and a feature story or tv spot is done on him, it generally refers to his success at MU. In general ,always good to have MU and Success in the same story.

In the old days, Miami of Ohio used to get a lot of mileage out of being the cradle of football coaches.

I want Brian Wardle to do well at Bradley .

Uh oh! A Wardle reference. Soon this thread will explode into a free Wardle discussion, about coming to MU. He could be Wojo's offensive coordinator, while we all know that Wojo has the defense all wired in.

[Sir Lawrence]

http://www.tomcreanbuyout.com/

[keefe]

More success at MU, no question.  Better overall record, more tournament appearances and a Final Four.  And remember - his first few seasons were before they built the Al, so he had crappy practice facilities and amenities.

Frankly, I have never understood the hatred directed towards Coach Thomas Crean. One only need look to his incredible generosity in funding the Marquette soccer facility. It was a unstintingly magnanimous gesture by a man whose very name defines selflessness. Coach Thomas Crean's altruism is humbling.

[77ncaachamps]

Tom Crean did his job: cleaned up IU's image, restored some credibility with that run (albeit ended earlier than it should) with Zeller and Oladipo.

It's time to move on. The cupboard is bare and it shouldn't be at IU.

The empty seats at Assembly is a huge indicator that the guillotine is about to get tripped.

[B. McBannerson]

Why would anyone rate Indiana as an elite program?  How can one be judged elite when they cannot even dominate their conference, let alone be elite nationally?

Going back to 1994 with Bobby Knight, Indiana has won their conference three times.  That is three time  23 years.  That is elite?  Two of those conference titles were Crean's, one by Davis.  Zero by Knight, Dakich or Sampson in that period.  Indiana is not elite and has not been even in the last years of Knight.

The coach makes the program.  Al made Marquette.  Coach K made Duke.  Wooden made UCLA.  The only thing the program does is help to get the next great coach, but the coach makes the program.

[77ncaachamps]

Luckily for us, Buzz was an excellent, over-achieving stop gap after Crean left.

He's recruited fairly well, but a lot of kids and fans look to the NBA as the "proof in the pudding" for their HC selection. So let's look at the NBAers under Crean at IU:

Yogi Ferrell - luckily for Crean, his hot play is keeping TC in a favorable light
Troy Williams - played in 24 games, started 13 this season
Noah Vonleh - played for CHA and now is on POR bench
Victor Oladipo - high-flyer was supposed to be second coming of DWade (to some extent). Traded from ORL to OKC. Is a starter for the Thunder.
Cody Zeller - Drafted by and plays for CHA. Injuries have plagued his young career.

I would not be surprised if TC gets the pass because of injuries this year and the "running a clean ship" as opposed to his predecessor/s. At the same time, the fomenting of IU fans's ire cannot be contained.

[tower912]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

Looks like it was Crean who got run over by the bus today...
<a href="https://youtu.be/BKxcrBuZnkM" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtu.be/BKxcrBuZnkM</a>

[Tugg Speedman]

Cream threw his team under the bus today.  That's why I am glad Duane did the ranting yesterday.

Stephen Bardo on BTN said he has lost control of his team.

[Jay Bee]

Stephen Bardo on BTN said he has lost control of his team.

Bardo's thoughts have the relevance of my dirty craps, to be fair

[4everwarriors]

He gone couldn't happen to a more deservin' motherfooker, hey?

[keefe]

He gone couldn't happen to a more deservin' motherfooker, hey?

Doc,

The man put Marquette soccer on the map with his generous financial gift. Please consider that when assessing him as man.

[Herman Cain]

It's unbelievable the hatred people still have for TC. No one thinks about the fact that if TC were never at MU, there wouldn't be a BE for MU, there wouldn't be an Al center, there wouldn't have been a Dwade, or a Jerel, or Wesley, or DJ. Or a FF in 2003. Did I like the way he left?? no, but I also realize he left for a program that any coach would have left for. I am also very grateful to him for putting MU BB back on the map. I shutter to think about where MU may be now if not for TC, and the fact he did great things for the program.

I agree with this analysis.

[Tugg Speedman]

I agree with this analysis.

Don't know what would have happened if TC never came?  Maybe MU taps some young guy from Tulsa name Bill Self?  Or mayber they take some guy from Southern Indiana named Bruce Pearl?  Just two name two.

Point is if TC did not take the job, do not assume that we would have had Dukiet 2.0.