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Author Topic: Is Going To College Worth It?  (Read 27379 times)

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2017, 02:51:21 AM »
This article seems to make the case that college is now elitist as it shows poor kids do as well as rich kids but simply don't go because they cannot afford it.  College is not the way you became a 1%, it is for kids from 1% families so they can stay 1%.
(the article is full of interactive graphics, you type in MU and it will add it to all the tables)

Some Colleges Have More Students From the Top 1 Percent Than the Bottom 60. Find Yours.
JAN. 18, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html

« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 02:53:24 AM by Yukon Cornelius »

forgetful

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2017, 09:29:21 AM »
This article seems to make the case that college is now elitist as it shows poor kids do as well as rich kids but simply don't go because they cannot afford it.  College is not the way you became a 1%, it is for kids from 1% families so they can stay 1%.
(the article is full of interactive graphics, you type in MU and it will add it to all the tables)

Some Colleges Have More Students From the Top 1 Percent Than the Bottom 60. Find Yours.
JAN. 18, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/01/18/upshot/some-colleges-have-more-students-from-the-top-1-percent-than-the-bottom-60.html

So you are in favor of making college free for all?

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2017, 10:40:25 AM »
So you are in favor of making college free for all?

Need to break the perception that "expensive means good" and start pricing it like most every other product we buy.  Then prices will fall.

MU82

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2017, 10:41:12 AM »
MU82, is the exact same experience worth it for a kid from a lower income family graduating with $150k in debt?

DG, same question, is this worth a $150k outlay where you're paying it off until 35?

If the family is low enough income, the student will receive significant financial aid - I'm talking about grants that don't have to be paid back. If the student is smart enough, numerous top universities already are providing free tuition, including most of the Ivies.

Otherwise, how about 2 years at a community college followed by 2 years at one of the great public universities that every state has?

An Illinois student, for example, could do a lot worse than 2 years at Truman College getting all the basic courses out of the way and figuring out what he/she wants to major in and then 2 years at UIC or U of I.

There probably would still be debt, but it wouldn't be anywhere near $150K.

Those big numbers are scare-tactic numbers. Most college students, even poor ones, don't graduate with anywhere near that.

http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data

Seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt, with an average of $30,100 per borrower.

You don't need 4 years (or more) at Yale, Notre Dame or even Marquette to get a great education that will be "worth it"! Stop looking at worse-case scenarios!

“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2017, 10:43:06 AM »
If the family is low enough income, the student will receive significant financial aid - I'm talking about grants that don't have to be paid back. If the student is smart enough, numerous top universities already are providing free tuition, including most of the Ivies.

Otherwise, how about 2 years at a community college followed by 2 years at one of the great public universities that every state has?

An Illinois student, for example, could do a lot worse than 2 years at Truman College getting all the basic courses out of the way and figuring out what he/she wants to major in and then 2 years at UIC or U of I.

There probably would still be debt, but it wouldn't be anywhere near $150K.

Those big numbers are scare-tactic numbers. Most college students, even poor ones, don't graduate with anywhere near that.

http://ticas.org/posd/map-state-data

Seven in 10 seniors (68%) who graduated from public and nonprofit colleges in 2015 had student loan debt, with an average of $30,100 per borrower.

You don't need 4 years (or more) at Yale, Notre Dame or even Marquette to get a great education that will be "worth it"! Stop looking at worse-case scenarios!

You think A Truman/UIC degree is worth that?

forgetful

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2017, 10:46:17 AM »
Need to break the perception that "expensive means good" and start pricing it like most every other product we buy.  Then prices will fall.

Aren't prices set by supply and demand?  Same principles govern college education prices.

GGGG

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2017, 10:48:17 AM »
You think A Truman/UIC degree is worth that?

$30,000 in debt?  For many students, most definitely.  As someone who works for a school with roughly the same profile as UIC, our students graduate with levels of debt at that level at the most.  Most have graduated to jobs where they can handle that level of debt too. 

MU82

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2017, 10:51:03 AM »
You think A Truman/UIC degree is worth that?

Actually, the UIC part isn't even necessary.

My wife went back to school at age 40 - Truman College - and got a 2-year associate degree in nursing. She is now in her 13th year as a pediatric nurse. She has been promoted numerous times, wins awards, and makes a pretty doggone good salary.

Her Truman education cost a few thousand dollars. There were about 300 people in her graduating class, and the college claimed more than 80% already had been placed in jobs.

Her Truman degree was "worth" more than her 4-year Marquette degree, financially. But if she hadn't gone to Marquette, she wouldn't have gotten me. So that was worth it to her, too!!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2017, 11:38:03 AM »
Honestly, I think the most realistic remedy is better education on loans and college finances in high school. My fiance went to LIU Post for her undergrad. Tuition costs roughly the same if not more than a Marquette despite not having nearly the prestige or profile and being near bankruptcy. She went there because her mom went there and as a 17 year old she didn't understand how much debt she was talking on and that there were cheaper options where she would have gotten a better education. She has said that if she knew what she knows now, she would have gone to a SUNY and ended up with maybe 10% of the derby she has now.

College counselors in high school are woefully underprepared and underfunded. I bet we'd see a lot less debt issues if we did the education up front.
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forgetful

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2017, 11:47:53 AM »
Honestly, I think the most realistic remedy is better education on loans and college finances in high school. My fiance went to LIU Post for her undergrad. Tuition costs roughly the same if not more than a Marquette despite not having nearly the prestige or profile and being near bankruptcy. She went there because her mom went there and as a 17 year old she didn't understand how much debt she was talking on and that there were cheaper options where she would have gotten a better education. She has said that if she knew what she knows now, she would have gone to a SUNY and ended up with maybe 10% of the derby she has now.

College counselors in high school are woefully underprepared and underfunded. I bet we'd see a lot less debt issues if we did the education up front.

Well said.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2017, 01:47:04 PM »
Honestly, I think the most realistic remedy is better education on loans and college finances in high school. My fiance went to LIU Post for her undergrad. Tuition costs roughly the same if not more than a Marquette despite not having nearly the prestige or profile and being near bankruptcy. She went there because her mom went there and as a 17 year old she didn't understand how much debt she was talking on and that there were cheaper options where she would have gotten a better education. She has said that if she knew what she knows now, she would have gone to a SUNY and ended up with maybe 10% of the derby she has now.

College counselors in high school are woefully underprepared and underfunded. I bet we'd see a lot less debt issues if we did the education up front.

I agree with this to a certain extent. However, with no disrespect meant towards your fiance, it's a HS student's responsibility to do the research and look at tuition costs, college rankings, etc. The high school should obviously play a part in helping students weigh their options and make an informed decision but ultimately it falls on the student and his/her family.

Honestly, I think a disproportionately high number of students choose their college based almost entirely on how much they enjoy their visit and very little else.

source?

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2017, 02:13:48 PM »
MU82, is the exact same experience worth it for a kid from a lower income family graduating with $150k in debt?

DG, same question, is this worth a $150k outlay where you're paying it off until 35?

My parents never made more than $30k between them when I was growing up. There are scholarships available for those willing to work for them, and very few wind up paying sticker price for college. For me, it was worth it although I would seriously question anyone taking out $150k in loans in their early 20s.

source?

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2017, 02:32:00 PM »
One more point;

The $150k number has been thrown around a lot, I realize only by the OP, but is that a realistic number? I was thrown off by it because my undergrad numbers were more around $18k when all is said and done (I received significant need-based grants and a pretty solid 4 year scholarship, also worked as a delivery driver, which I highly recommend for students due to flexibility and relatively high pay). That increased significantly in grad school, but I'm still nowhere near $150k. Looking things up, it appears that the average debt for the class of 2016 is $37,172 ( https://studentloanhero.com/student-loan-debt-statistics/ ) and Marquette averages $7,690 per year for a total of $30,760 over 4 years ( http://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/marquette-university/paying-for-college/student-loan-debt/# ). I think that is well worth it to become a better person and get a better job.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 02:34:43 PM by source? »

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2017, 02:35:07 PM »
I agree with this to a certain extent. However, with no disrespect meant towards your fiance, it's a HS student's responsibility to do the research and look at tuition costs, college rankings, etc. The high school should obviously play a part in helping students weigh their options and make an informed decision but ultimately it falls on the student and his/her family.

Honestly, I think a disproportionately high number of students choose their college based almost entirely on how much they enjoy their visit and very little else.

I agree. But like anything in life, its hard to know the right questions to ask and things to look at when you are doing something for the first time. Her mother didn't take out any loans because the cost was a lot less when she went and her dad didn't graduate high school. I think there's responsibility on the student, the parents, the high school, and the loan givers. I think we place entirely too much responsibility onto 17 year olds who have never been educated on this topic before
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 03:55:31 PM by TAMU Eagle »
TAMU

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Eldon

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2017, 04:36:22 PM »
Honestly, I think the most realistic remedy is better education on loans and college finances in high school. My fiance went to LIU Post for her undergrad. Tuition costs roughly the same if not more than a Marquette despite not having nearly the prestige or profile and being near bankruptcy. She went there because her mom went there and as a 17 year old she didn't understand how much debt she was talking on and that there were cheaper options where she would have gotten a better education. She has said that if she knew what she knows now, she would have gone to a SUNY and ended up with maybe 10% of the derby she has now.

College counselors in high school are woefully underprepared and underfunded. I bet we'd see a lot less debt issues if we did the education up front.

Here's another good idea being promoted by IU:

Troubled by an increase in student loan defaults, Indiana University decided to tell prospective borrowers what their monthly payment would be after graduation and how much they would owe. That information had a dramatic effect on students’ willingness to borrow: Federal undergraduate Stafford loan disbursements at the public university dropped 11 percent, or $31 million, in the nine months that ended March 31 from a year earlier

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-07-17/how-indiana-university-cut-student-debt


Another remedy is to tell students (once they are in college) what the reality of the job market is.  My friends in the private sector tell me that students come out of college--still wet behind the ears--and expect to make $70k with a marketing degree and be promoted to manager within two years.

If those salary/promotion expectations are widespread, they need to be broken.

buckchuckler

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2017, 04:54:25 PM »
Aren't prices set by supply and demand?  Same principles govern college education prices.

Doesn't the wide availability of loans somewhat skew the traditional supply and demand?

forgetful

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2017, 05:11:45 PM »
Doesn't the wide availability of loans somewhat skew the traditional supply and demand?

Do you say the same thing about car prices, home values etc., no, so why apply it here it makes no sense.  There are loans for every type of major purchase.  That is part of the whole system of supply, demand and financing.

So is the idea of luxury (ivy league), which demand a premium, even though they typically do not actually provide a better product (not true in terms of top schools, which do provide a better product). 

College education prices follow supply and demand.  That is why there is so much pressure on higher education institutions to keep price increases at less than 5% annually.  If they do not, demand will fall.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2017, 05:25:48 PM »
My parents never made more than $30k between them when I was growing up. There are scholarships available for those willing to work for them, and very few wind up paying sticker price for college. For me, it was worth it although I would seriously question anyone taking out $150k in loans in their early 20s.

Isn't MU sticker price $33k/year?  Add in $10k/year for room and board and their is your $150k total price tag.

source?

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2017, 05:39:04 PM »
Isn't MU sticker price $33k/year?  Add in $10k/year for room and board and their is your $150k total price tag.

I seriously doubt more than 10% of MU students pay anywhere near sticker price. A good part time job will cover most living expenses

Jay Bee

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2017, 06:11:42 PM »
Hey can someone please photoshop trump's wife in MU baby blue gear?
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2017, 08:59:09 PM »
I seriously doubt more than 10% of MU students pay anywhere near sticker price. A good part time job will cover most living expenses

Actually I underestimated MU's costs ...

2016–17 undergraduate tuition and costs

Cost of Attendance   $53,218
Tuition and Fees       $38,470
Room and Board      $11,440
Books and Supplies  $1,008
Other Expenses        $2,300

71% of the undergraduates get financial aid so 29% pay the sticker price ($212k for four years), not less than 10%.

The 79% getting financial aid get an average of $25,701/year in aid meaning that still pay $27,517/yr in costs ($53,218 - $25,701).  This is $110,168 for 4 years. (higher if costs go up)

The average amount of debt for a 2015 graduate was $37,048 (meaning that half had more).  So that means Mom and Dad forked over $70k to $125k over four years to leave Junior with an average of $37k in debt

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1768


Do you say the same thing about car prices, home values etc., no, so why apply it here it makes no sense.  There are loans for every type of major purchase.  That is part of the whole system of supply, demand and financing.

So is the idea of luxury (ivy league), which demand a premium, even though they typically do not actually provide a better product (not true in terms of top schools, which do provide a better product). 

College education prices follow supply and demand. That is why there is so much pressure on higher education institutions to keep price increases at less than 5% annually.  If they do not, demand will fall.

Are you asking if home debt skewed home prices?  Where you in a coma from 2006 to 2010, the financial crisis?

Your last line is correct, college tuition is priced like art or Jewelry.  If it does not cost a ton of money, it must not be good.   So we base our perception of what is a good school by how much it costs.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 09:09:33 PM by Yukon Cornelius »

buckchuckler

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2017, 09:05:00 PM »
nm
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 01:32:04 PM by buckchuckler »

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2017, 09:25:57 PM »
71% of the undergraduates get financial aid so 29% pay the sticker price ($212k for four years), not less than 10%.

Could be wrong but I don't believe scholarships are covered in financial aid. I'm not sure if grants are or not. I'm also not sure about work study. So more than 71% might not pay the sticker price.

Marquette is also on the high end for tuition. There are much cheaper options available that I believe a majority of students end up at.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2017, 09:30:35 PM »
Could be wrong but I don't believe scholarships are covered in financial aid. I'm not sure if grants are or not. I'm also not sure about work study. So more than 71% might not pay the sticker price.

Marquette is also on the high end for tuition. There are much cheaper options available that I believe a majority of students end up at.

See the link, that is the all-in number

http://www.collegedata.com/cs/data/college/college_pg03_tmpl.jhtml?schoolId=1768

forgetful

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Re: Is Going To College Worth It?
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2017, 09:33:17 PM »

Are you asking if home debt skewed home prices?  Where you in a coma from 2006 to 2010, the financial crisis?

Your last line is correct, college tuition is priced like art or Jewelry.  If it does not cost a ton of money, it must not be good.   So we base our perception of what is a good school by how much it costs.

Home prices were skewed slightly, because of predatory loans tied to assuming annual increases in home values of 10% or more.  That led to immense pressure on the system that was unsustainable, coupled to fraudulent activities by major banks it led a massive economic collapse.  The economic collapse made home buying unattainable exacerbating the slight inflation of home values.  In the vast majority of areas, the collapse has fully rebounded and home valuations are back to where they were pre-collapse.  In some markets home values have skyrocketed again.  My home, purchased at the bottom in 2010, is now worth 70% more than we paid for it in 2010.  The home valuation issues were more to do with the economic collapse (and response to fraudulent banking activities) than it was to availability of loans. 

Student loans are permanent, there is no declaring bankruptcy and they often persist through death.  They (in response to buck chuckler) are not artificially depressed rates, instead they are actually usually well above market rate for other types of loans, especially given that they persist through bankruptcy. 

That's why banks love doing student loan refinances, guaranteed revenue, little risk. 

Your comment on us determining educational value based on how much it costs is patently false and couldn't be more ignorant of the truth. 

What is a better college USC or BYU? I would say they are about equal.  USC costs about 55k per year, BYU 5.5K.  There are an infinite number of examples like this. 

I've never met a student that was thinking about going to go to a college and then heard it was cheap and said...nah, must be a bad University.  I have heard them justify going to an expensive college by realization of the quality of education or (and often) by the overall quality of the experience. 

The latter is most often the justification.  Kids/parents believe they are not paying for the education, but the lifetime worth of experiences, whose value cannot be emphasized enough.

Business people trying to take over academia have over focused on the latter by providing bigger and more stuff not related to education that has driven up costs and led to gross inefficiency in academia. 

I seriously advise you to read fall of the faculty if you have an interest in this area, inform yourself of all sides of the issue first, before touting and pushing the uninformed ideals of people like Thiel.  The answer is typically somewhere in the middle, right now you are choosing one side...the least informed side.

 

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