Is Going To College Worth It?

[Tugg Speedman]

No political agenda. Not what I meant. I have spoken with business minded types about the cost of higher education. They often have grand ideas about ways to lower the cost that in most cases I have no doubt would work to a degree. But what I have often found is that they don't understand what the product of higher education is. Many of them seem to think universities are selling a degree. We aren't. We are selling education. Education isn't often pretty or efficient. Making sure our customers receive a true education often means inconveniencing them and telling them things that they don't want to hear. Its a customer service nightmare. The old adage of "the customer is always right" is never true in higher education. This drives business types crazy. Sure we could offer all our classes on line and that would save money. But that cheapens the value of the product too much. Sure we could cut all the liberal arts departments and that would save money. But that cheapens the product too much. Sure we could cut all of student affairs and that would save money but that would cheapen the product too much.

I think academia needs to be run more like a business, but not at the expense of education. There is a happy middle, it just needs to be found. One area that sticks out to me is in building on campus. Too often I think universities build projects without proper sponsorship and in ways that are too costly or inefficient. That's why I think things like Innovation Alley at Marquette are a great idea. Fusing the best of business and academia together.

The franchise idea is an interesting one. Its not the first time I have heard it. I remember a conversation where someone suggested that the the top Jesuit schools buy out the struggling ones and make branch campuses. You could have Marquette - Saint Louis (SLU), Marquette - Denver (Regis), Marquette - New Orleans (Loyola). Different schools could specialize in different areas and students could switch between campuses between semesters for a more specialized experience. Like study abroad but domestic. I don't have the business acumen to understand how it would save money, but it certainly sounded cool!

How do you measure "education?"  What metric do you use to show you're a success?

Regarding education, is it all the same cost?  Would you consider some degrees/classes/"education" worth a different price than others?  What about the idea that STEM degree/class/"education" (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medicine) cost more than non-STEM degree/class/"education"?  Why?  Because the marketplace pays more for these degrees so charge more and use that money to subsidize non-STEM degrees (aka make them cheaper).  What about reducing the costs of some classes, like say Freshman requirements, be having those online or taught by TAs.

Let me blunt, the cost of an education is outrageous.  I'm disappointed that some here think that higher education must rip them off and bankrupt the typical family.  It is incumbent on higher education to reduce the costs.  They will not ... as the Peter Thiel noted in 2011:

At an event two weeks ago, I met Geoffrey Canada, one of the stars of the documentary “Waiting for Superman.” He talked about a college he advises that argued they couldn’t possible cut their fees for the simple reason that people would deem them to be less-prestigious.

He is 100% correct.  If MU raised the money to go tuition-free they would not do it because of the belief that it cheapens an MU degree.  That is why I've argued only Harvard can do this.

Point is education is broken and the scary part is the sheer number of people that honestly believe it is "special" so it should stay broken.

[MerrittsMustache]

How do you measure "education?"  What metric do you use to show you're a success?

Regarding education, is it all the same cost?  Would you consider some degrees/classes/"education" worth a different price than others?  What about the idea that STEM degree/class/"education" (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medicine) cost more than non-STEM degree/class/"education"?  Why?  Because the marketplace pays more for these degrees so charge more and use that money to subsidize non-STEM degrees (aka make them cheaper).  What about reducing the costs of some classes, like say Freshman requirements, be having those online or taught by TAs.

Let me blunt, the cost of an education is outrageous.  I'm disappointed that some here think that higher education must rip them off and bankrupt the typical family.  It is incumbent on higher education to reduce the costs.  They will not ... as the Peter Thiel noted in 2011:

At an event two weeks ago, I met Geoffrey Canada, one of the stars of the documentary “Waiting for Superman.” He talked about a college he advises that argued they couldn’t possible cut their fees for the simple reason that people would deem them to be less-prestigious.

He is 100% correct.  If MU raised the money to go tuition-free they would not do it because of the belief that it cheapens an MU degree.  That is why I've argued only Harvard can do this.

Point is education is broken and the scary part is the sheer number of people that honestly believe it is "special" so it should stay broken.

The 'M' in STEM stands for Math. Just thought I'd put that out there.

[forgetful]

How do you measure "education?"  What metric do you use to show you're a success?

Regarding education, is it all the same cost?  Would you consider some degrees/classes/"education" worth a different price than others?  What about the idea that STEM degree/class/"education" (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medicine) cost more than non-STEM degree/class/"education"?  Why?  Because the marketplace pays more for these degrees so charge more and use that money to subsidize non-STEM degrees (aka make them cheaper).  What about reducing the costs of some classes, like say Freshman requirements, be having those online or taught by TAs.

Let me blunt, the cost of an education is outrageous.  I'm disappointed that some here think that higher education must rip them off and bankrupt the typical family.  It is incumbent on higher education to reduce the costs.  They will not ... as the Peter Thiel noted in 2011:

At an event two weeks ago, I met Geoffrey Canada, one of the stars of the documentary “Waiting for Superman.” He talked about a college he advises that argued they couldn’t possible cut their fees for the simple reason that people would deem them to be less-prestigious.

He is 100% correct.  If MU raised the money to go tuition-free they would not do it because of the belief that it cheapens an MU degree.  That is why I've argued only Harvard can do this.

Point is education is broken and the scary part is the sheer number of people that honestly believe it is "special" so it should stay broken.

No, both you and him are wrong.  Good sign you shouldn't discuss these things, since you don't know enough about them is that you think M in STEM stands for Medicine.

The principle you have wrong is based on the ideals of business people, applying business principles where they do not belong.  Most of the problems you are concerned with in Education were derived from business people trying to apply business concepts to education. 

Its not that business and education cannot mix, it is that educational experts with some business acumen should be directing the industry...right now you have people with business acumen and NO educational experience thinking that since they know business they know what is best for education.  That has and will always lead to poor decisions and problems.

[GooooMarquette]

The principle you have wrong is based on the ideals of business people, applying business principles where they do not belong.  Most of the problems you are concerned with in Education were derived from business people trying to apply business concepts to education. 

Bingo.  The same thing has happened in healthcare, where many large medical centers and insurance companies are run by MBAs instead of MDs.

Business people have a lot to being to the table, but they should not be making the major decisions in education any more than they should be making the major decisions in healthcare.  Education should be focused on students, just like healthcare should be focused on patients.

[MerrittsMustache]

Bingo.  The same thing has happened in healthcare, where many large medical centers and insurance companies are run by MBAs instead of MDs.

Business people have a lot to being to the table, but they should not be making the major decisions in education any more than they should be making the major decisions in healthcare.  Education should be focused on students, just like healthcare should be focused on patients.

Having worked for a healthcare system that was run by MDs, I can tell you that there need to be some MBAs in the decision-making process as well.

[GooooMarquette]

Having worked for a healthcare system that was run by MDs, I can tell you that there need to be some MBAs in the decision-making process as well.

I never said they shouldn't be involved - in fact, I specifically said that business people bring a lot to the table. 

I said they should not be making the major decisions.  Provide input and guidance, and let the docs make the final decisions.

[Tugg Speedman]

No, both you and him are wrong.  Good sign you shouldn't discuss these things, since you don't know enough about them is that you think M in STEM stands for Medicine.

The principle you have wrong is based on the ideals of business people, applying business principles where they do not belong.  Most of the problems you are concerned with in Education were derived from business people trying to apply business concepts to education. 

Its not that business and education cannot mix, it is that educational experts with some business acumen should be directing the industry...right now you have people with business acumen and NO educational experience thinking that since they know business they know what is best for education.  That has and will always lead to poor decisions and problems.

I get it, you have every answer on this subject and the rest of us should just shut up because we're too stupid to have an opinion.

What you fail to understand that the problem is you and your own arrogance.

Education failures are precisely because your ideas get traction.

[Tugg Speedman]

Having worked for a healthcare system that was run by MDs, I can tell you that there need to be some MBAs in the decision-making process as well.

The biggest problem in healthcare is that doctors run these institutions.  See Ben Carson ... he can operate on me or my kids anytime but should not run any type of organization.

Most Doctors are only qualified to stick thermometers in rectums and misdiagnose problems and little more.

[Tugg Speedman]

Bingo.  The same thing has happened in healthcare, where many large medical centers and insurance companies are run by MBAs instead of MDs.

Business people have a lot to being to the table, but they should not be making the major decisions in education any more than they should be making the major decisions in healthcare.  Education should be focused on students, just like healthcare should be focused on patients.

I'm going all "forgetful'" on you .... I'm an expert in businesspeople, you don't understand what they do or how they do it.  You need to stop posting on this subject because you're not qualified to offer an opinion.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

How do you measure "education?"  What metric do you use to show you're a success?

Regarding education, is it all the same cost?  Would you consider some degrees/classes/"education" worth a different price than others?  What about the idea that STEM degree/class/"education" (Science, Technology, Engineering and Medicine) cost more than non-STEM degree/class/"education"?  Why?  Because the marketplace pays more for these degrees so charge more and use that money to subsidize non-STEM degrees (aka make them cheaper).  What about reducing the costs of some classes, like say Freshman requirements, be having those online or taught by TAs.

Let me blunt, the cost of an education is outrageous.  I'm disappointed that some here think that higher education must rip them off and bankrupt the typical family.  It is incumbent on higher education to reduce the costs.  They will not ... as the Peter Thiel noted in 2011:

At an event two weeks ago, I met Geoffrey Canada, one of the stars of the documentary “Waiting for Superman.” He talked about a college he advises that argued they couldn’t possible cut their fees for the simple reason that people would deem them to be less-prestigious.

He is 100% correct.  If MU raised the money to go tuition-free they would not do it because of the belief that it cheapens an MU degree.  That is why I've argued only Harvard can do this.

Point is education is broken and the scary part is the sheer number of people that honestly believe it is "special" so it should stay broken.

I think most universities use several metrics to measure their success. 6 year graduation rate, GPA, persistence, and job placement rate just to name some of the major ones.

While I'm sure Geoffrey Canada's experience is 100% generalizable to all universities....I think most universities are aware of and trying to cut cost of education.

I have mixed feelings about making different degrees cost different amounts of money. On one hand, it makes sense financially. It costs more to educate an engineer than it does to educate a history teacher. The engineer is also likely to make a lot more and thus be able to afford the greater debt. However, I am worried about setting up a system where only a certain class of people can afford to major in STEM, thus continuing the cycle of poverty. Doesn't mean its a non-starter, just something to keep in consideration.

I do agree that the cost of education is out of control. I do agree that universities need to be run more like businesses. I do agree the higher education system is broken. I agree with a lot of your points so I'm not sure why your answer is so hostile. I'm just not ready to elect Peter Thiel the Secretary of Education.....I'm concerned enough with DeVos.

[forgetful]

I get it, you have every answer on this subject and the rest of us should just shut up because we're too stupid to have an opinion.

What you fail to understand that the problem is you and your own arrogance.

Education failures are precisely because your ideas get traction.

1.  You don't know me.

2.  Never said I had all the answers, I respect TAMU/Boombatz opinions here because they have experience in education.  The problem is when people with no background in the area think their completely unrelated experience Trumps actual experience and knowledge within the field. 

2b.  In fact, I know many way more knowledgable than I, that I would defer to in a heartbeat.  Thiel is not one of them, based on the little I know about your background/expertise, you are also not one of them...but maybe you can prove me wrong.  So far, you've just copied and pasted the uninformed opinion of other and claimed their superiority over anyone else, because you agree with them...that does not an argument make.

3.  You've managed to, despite not knowing me, not knowing anything about my background in education and business, not knowing any of my actual ideas regarding the subject at hand, decided that education failures are a result of my ideas...who is the arrogant one again?

[forgetful]

I think most universities use several metrics to measure their success. 6 year graduation rate, GPA, persistence, and job placement rate just to name some of the major ones.

While I'm sure Geoffrey Canada's experience is 100% generalizable to all universities....I think most universities are aware of and trying to cut cost of education.

I have mixed feelings about making different degrees cost different amounts of money. On one hand, it makes sense financially. It costs more to educate an engineer than it does to educate a history teacher. The engineer is also likely to make a lot more and thus be able to afford the greater debt. However, I am worried about setting up a system where only a certain class of people can afford to major in STEM, thus continuing the cycle of poverty. Doesn't mean its a non-starter, just something to keep in consideration.

I do agree that the cost of education is out of control. I do agree that universities need to be run more like businesses. I do agree the higher education system is broken. I agree with a lot of your points so I'm not sure why your answer is so hostile. I'm just not ready to elect Peter Thiel the Secretary of Education.....I'm concerned enough with DeVos.

The bolded is factually incorrect.  Your typical History/Liberal arts department cost more to maintain then they generate in revenue.  STEM fields are revenue generating departments.  There are a number of practical reasons this is the case, one of which is research $$ and technology rights.  Both of these generate more than enough to offset the increased expenses due to infrastructure and faculty salaries.  An additional factor is the ability to have very large class sizes for most of the core courses in these disciplines, whereas History/Liberal Arts has many "intimate" highly specialized courses.  Not to mention lab fees that recoup the entire cost of running labs (and actually function as an additional revenue source as the fee-revenue exceeds costs to run the labs).

If one were to price college education based on degree plans, with the goal in mind of maintaining all departments as revenue neutral, cost of education would skyrocket in the Humanities/Arts and fall in STEM.  This would run counter productive to the ability to finance/pay back student loans.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Hands down, this isn't even a discussion.  Education, at any level, makes you a better, smarter, more curious, more well-rounded, worldly, socially, family and civically active person.  If we can make a few more scheckels on the side, nirvana.

A house and a car are things.  Friendships, ideas, even you musckarats, are all worth a world of fulfillment, ai-na?  Add in a Bo Ellis when you grew up in Cracker Town, life is fulfilled.

[Dr. Blackheart]

<a href="https://youtu.be/1lyu1KKwC74" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtu.be/1lyu1KKwC74</a>

[MU82]

Going to college was worth it to me.

Where else would I have learned how to shoot a beer?

Where else would I have memorized every word of Thick As A Brick while I smoked from a bong taller than me?

Where else would I have found a hoopster cooler than Sam Worthen to cheer for?

Where else would I have developed at least kind of a clue about how to please the ladies?

Where else would I have learned to not say things like "how to please the ladies"?

Where else would I have cheated, along with Glenn Rivers and several others, on Charlie Nader's tests in team sports?

Where else would I have discovered that religion is even more of a sham than I thought it was?

Where else would I have found the woman who would become my wife of 33 years?

And so on and so on and so on.

Damn right it was worth it!

[Tugg Speedman]

Going to college was worth it to me.

Where else would I have learned how to shoot a beer?

Where else would I have memorized every word of Thick As A Brick while I smoked from a bong taller than me?

Where else would I have found a hoopster cooler than Sam Worthen to cheer for?

Where else would I have developed at least kind of a clue about how to please the ladies?

Where else would I have learned to not say things like "how to please the ladies"?

Where else would I have cheated, along with Glenn Rivers and several others, on Charlie Nader's tests in team sports?

Where else would I have discovered that religion is even more of a sham than I thought it was?

Where else would I have found the woman who would become my wife of 33 years?

And so on and so on and so on.

Damn right it was worth it!

+1

... and today all of this is yours for $150k to $200k

[GooooMarquette]

I'm going all "forgetful'" on you .... I'm an expert in businesspeople, you don't understand what they do or how they do it.  You need to stop posting on this subject because you're not qualified to offer an opinion.

Good for you.

If you want to tell your kids not to go to college, have at it. 

[Tugg Speedman]

Good for you.

If you want to tell your kids not to go to college, have at it.

This what I wrote in poat #1

I am very sympathetic to their arguments and at the very least the way college is structured, from its core curriculum to degrees offered to the costs need to change.  Many of the arguments Altucher lays out I agree with.

I'm all for going to college, I just think the way they force an outdated core curriculum and the outrageous costs need to be changed, and radically changed.  So things like online courses, variable costs for degrees and/or courses, and even franchising should strongly be considered. 

I think the Altucher and Thiel are saying the current way college is structured is an incredible waste of time and resources.  That I agree with.  It is broken and needs to be changed.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The bolded is factually incorrect.  Your typical History/Liberal arts department cost more to maintain then they generate in revenue.  STEM fields are revenue generating departments.  There are a number of practical reasons this is the case, one of which is research $$ and technology rights.  Both of these generate more than enough to offset the increased expenses due to infrastructure and faculty salaries.  An additional factor is the ability to have very large class sizes for most of the core courses in these disciplines, whereas History/Liberal Arts has many "intimate" highly specialized courses.  Not to mention lab fees that recoup the entire cost of running labs (and actually function as an additional revenue source as the fee-revenue exceeds costs to run the labs).

If one were to price college education based on degree plans, with the goal in mind of maintaining all departments as revenue neutral, cost of education would skyrocket in the Humanities/Arts and fall in STEM.  This would run counter productive to the ability to finance/pay back student loans.

This is true, I was looking purely at the costs not the revenue they bring in.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Waste of time and resources is strong. Inefficient and expensive sure. The existence is still extremely valuable. Very few would benefit more from not going to college than going to college IMHO.

[dgies9156]

I was a non-STEM, non business major, but there is no way I would be making my current income without a college degree.  Even if it cost me $150k, it would have been worth it.  Other people going to the same school, with the same major, are making less.  Some are making more.

Ultimately how far you advance depends on how smart and savvy you are, and on how hard you work. 

Wow, Vinnie, we agree!

College is more than technical training. If it is just technical training, most people could do it in about 2.5 years (except for you engineers). What college does is teach you how to think. How to see the world differently than the _________ (fill in the blank) world you grew up in. For me, it meant bursting out of the Bubba capital of the known universe and learning from some fascinating people who will never  know what difference they made for me.

I will be eternally indebted to Marquette for the exposure they gave me to new ways of thinking; to ideas that are a core part of my life. The dull and often boring professors in the 1970s who I thought were really out of touch were  more on the cutting edge than I imagined.

And, we won a f___ing national championship!!!!!!!!

Whether Marquette's costs are out of control is another story. They are and O'Hara Hall (or wherever they hang out today) knows it! But we must separate cost containment and efficiency from the core mission of the university.

[dgies9156]

Where else would I have found the woman who would become my wife of 33 years?

Damn right it was worth it!

For that alone, it was worth every damn cent!

36 years here and going strong!

[source?]

I can't imagine the person I would be if I hadn't gone to college, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been as happy. The undergrad requirement of taking a fine arts course was one I dreaded, and I was basically dragged kicking and screaming to my first art history class. A few years later and I've dedicated significant amounts of money to visiting the Louvre, the Met, the National Gallery (England), the British Museum, the Art Institute of Chicago and many smaller and less known museums. I wouldn't take any amount of money in return for those experiences.

[MU82]

For that alone, it was worth every damn cent!

36 years here and going strong!

Congrats, dg!

My parents paid for most of my education and I had only a couple thou in loans, but my wife-to-be had well into the 5-figures, so I musta been in love because I married debt!

In my little tome above, I forgot (how could I have) ...

Where else would I have found the guys I STILL consider my very best friends?

[Tugg Speedman]

I can't imagine the person I would be if I hadn't gone to college, and I'm sure I wouldn't have been as happy. The undergrad requirement of taking a fine arts course was one I dreaded, and I was basically dragged kicking and screaming to my first art history class. A few years later and I've dedicated significant amounts of money to visiting the Louvre, the Met, the National Gallery (England), the British Museum, the Art Institute of Chicago and many smaller and less known museums. I wouldn't take any amount of money in return for those experiences.

Congrats, dg!

My parents paid for most of my education and I had only a couple thou in loans, but my wife-to-be had well into the 5-figures, so I musta been in love because I married debt!

In my little tome above, I forgot (how could I have) ...

Where else would I have found the guys I STILL consider my very best friends?

MU82, is the exact same experience worth it for a kid from a lower income family graduating with $150k in debt?

DG, same question, is this worth a $150k outlay where you're paying it off until 35?