NBA '17

[wadesworld]

If you were disturbed by that, don't ever look up the Napoleon McCallum injury.

I won't, thanks.  Far from the worst injury, but your leg is not made to bend like that.

[LAMUfan]

Why did I willingly choose to watch Beasley's knee injury?  Why?

I guess he's ok actually, out 3 games, negative MRI.  Would not of bet on that.

[MU82]

Possibly in retaliation to Tibs leaking that he was clamoring for Draymond Green when the Bulls drafted Marquis Teague. The Bulls' FO can be very petty.

If the Bulls have decided that they want to build a young team around Jimmy Butler, I could get on board with that. I just have no confidence that they know how to do that. Hoiberg's system calls for athletic shooters. They could have gone hard after Harrison Barnes (connections to McDermott and Hoiberg) and/or Eric Gordon (Chicago native) in free agency, but instead they signed two 30-something former All-Stars who can't shoot. They also traded their only athletic guard who can actually shoot for a PG who can't. Who knows? They may end up tanking next season despite their intentions to be a playoff team.

Good analysis here, MM.

My only nit is that Eric Gordon is not a Chicago native ... unless Indy has become one big, distant suburb!

[MerrittsMustache]

Good analysis here, MM.

My only nit is that Eric Gordon is not a Chicago native ... unless Indy has become one big, distant suburb!

You're right! I was thinking he left the state to go to IU but he actually decommitted from Illinois to go to IU. My bad.

That said, Indy is as close as to Chicago as some places that people consider suburbs 

[MerrittsMustache]

58 points in 36 minutes...on 39 shots. Is that impressive? I mean, the point total is impressive but 39 shots in 36 minutes played? And the other 11 guys combined to take just 46 shots total? The rest of the team also had just 7 assists which means the whole game was basically Westbrook going one-on-one. He's a phenomenal talent but he's never going to win anything playing his current style.

[wadesworld]

58 points in 36 minutes...on 39 shots. Is that impressive? I mean, the point total is impressive but 39 shots in 36 minutes played? And the other 11 guys combined to take just 46 shots total? The rest of the team also had just 7 assists which means the whole game was basically Westbrook going one-on-one. He's a phenomenal talent but he's never going to win anything playing his current style.

Shocking that a star like KD wouldn't want to play alongside that...

[GGGG]

58 points in 36 minutes...on 39 shots. Is that impressive? I mean, the point total is impressive but 39 shots in 36 minutes played? And the other 11 guys combined to take just 46 shots total? The rest of the team also had just 7 assists which means the whole game was basically Westbrook going one-on-one. He's a phenomenal talent but he's never going to win anything playing his current style.

Interesting box score.  In a game the Thunder lost by 5, and where Westbrook played 36 minutes, he had a plus minus of 7.  So without him on the floor, the Thunder were -12.

In 11 minutes of action, Jerami Grant was -18.  In 13, someone named Alex Abrines was -13.  In 6, Norris Cole was -7.

So my conclusion?  You are correct that they aren't going to win with this current style.  But it doesn't matter cause they're a crap team anyway.

[JWags85]

Relevant and crazy

http://deadspin.com/are-you-sure-russell-westbrook-should-be-mvp-consider-1793083400

[GGGG]

Relevant and crazy

http://deadspin.com/are-you-sure-russell-westbrook-should-be-mvp-consider-1793083400

Uh oh.

I sense that a "best player doesn't mean most *valuable* player" discussion is right around the corner.

[MUBurrow]

58 points in 36 minutes...on 39 shots. Is that impressive? I mean, the point total is impressive but 39 shots in 36 minutes played? And the other 11 guys combined to take just 46 shots total? The rest of the team also had just 7 assists which means the whole game was basically Westbrook going one-on-one. He's a phenomenal talent but he's never going to win anything playing his current style.

I can appreciate the inclination to blame Westbrook for chucking, but here is a rundown of players currently on the Thunder roster averaging more than 20 mpg:

Victor Oladipo, SG      33.5   
Andre Roberson, SF      30.5   
Steven Adams, C      30.5   
Doug McDermott, SF           27.0   
Taj Gibson, PF              23.1   
Enes Kanter, C         21.7   
Domantas Sabonis, PF   21.0   
Jerami Grant, SF      20.8   

Through 7 games, McDermott's and Gibson's PERs are both substantially down from their Chi #s where they were by no means world beaters (McD from 11.5 to 5 and Taj from 15.7 to 10). They are getting a combined 50 mpg. Other than Oladipo's fine but not great PER of 14.1, every other guard or wing getting meaningful minutes has a PER hovering at about 10. Jerami Grant is averaging as many blocks as Enes Kanter and Steven Adams, who at the 4/5 are getting a combined 51 mpg. This is a bad, bad team.

[cheebs09]

I can appreciate the inclination to blame Westbrook for chucking, but here is a rundown of players currently on the Thunder roster averaging more than 20 mpg:

Victor Oladipo, SG      33.5   
Andre Roberson, SF      30.5   
Steven Adams, C      30.5   
Doug McDermott, SF           27.0   
Taj Gibson, PF              23.1   
Enes Kanter, C         21.7   
Domantas Sabonis, PF   21.0   
Jerami Grant, SF      20.8   

Through 7 games, McDermott's and Gibson's PERs are both substantially down from their Chi #s where they were by no means world beaters (McD from 11.5 to 5 and Taj from 15.7 to 10). They are getting a combined 50 mpg. Other than Oladipo's fine but not great PER of 14.1, every other guard or wing getting meaningful minutes has a PER hovering at about 10. Jerami Grant is averaging as many blocks as Enes Kanter and Steven Adams, who at the 4/5 are getting a combined 51 mpg. This is a bad, bad team.

Couldn't the fact that McDermott and Taj's PERs have gone down a decent amount point to Westbrook not helping teammates and not just that his teammates are bad?

[wadesworld]

Couldn't the fact that McDermott and Taj's PERs have gone down a decent amount point to Westbrook not helping teammates and not just that his teammates are bad?

Bingo.

Those players aren't the greatest group of players in the NBA, but they're not terrible.  Oladipo is good, Adams is a stud, Kanter isn't bad, Roberson is a good glue guy, Taj has proven to be a good player, McDermott can score, and Grant and Sabonis will be good players in a couple years (admittedly doesn't help now).

Westbrook is an insane talent, who helps nobody be a more efficient player.

[GGGG]

Couldn't the fact that McDermott and Taj's PERs have gone down a decent amount point to Westbrook not helping teammates and not just that his teammates are bad?

Could be.  Although Durant's PER was pretty damn good playing with Westbrook.

Those players aren't the greatest group of players in the NBA, but they're not terrible.  Oladipo is good, Adams is a stud, Kanter isn't bad, Roberson is a good glue guy, Taj has proven to be a good player, McDermott can score, and Grant and Sabonis will be good players in a couple years (admittedly doesn't help now).

I'm not sure I would call Adams a stud.

[MUBurrow]

Couldn't the fact that McDermott and Taj's PERs have gone down a decent amount point to Westbrook not helping teammates and not just that his teammates are bad?

With Durant, Russ shot 18.1x per game vs Durant's 19.2.  Now, Russ is shooting 24.5x per game vs Durant's 16.7.  So in moving to perhaps the best offensive team in the history of the game, Durant is only shooting 2.5 less times per game, while Russ is only soaking up about 6.5 of the 19 shots per game that left with Durant.  Do you think that if that number were fewer, the Thunder would win more games? I can't agree with that. Of his surrounding cast, how many of those guys can create their own shot? Maybe Oladipo and Roberson? Even that's being generous. On a bad Magic team that did him no favors last year, Oladipo averaged 16 ppg on 13.5 shots. Roberson has never had to shoulder enough of a load to make a fair comp.

Meanwhile, Russ is also third in the NBA at 10 assists per game, which is right in line with his 10.4 from last year (dishing to Durant and Ibaka, who is probably a better finisher than anyone left on the roster). So you can't exactly say Westbrook is ignoring his teammates. His assists per game are the same and he's soaked up less than 1/3 of the shots vacated when Durant left. 

Moral of the story is that I think its a little unfair to point to that cast and assign Westbrook the narrative of failing to make that team as good as it can be.

[wadesworld]

Could be.  Although Durant's PER was pretty damn good playing with Westbrook.


I'm not sure I would call Adams a stud.

I love Adams.  He might not be someone you can just throw the ball into and let him back his man down, but that's not basketball nowadays.  He wreaks absolute havoc on teams.  A much, much stronger Tristian Thompson.

[MerrittsMustache]

With Durant, Russ shot 18.1x per game vs Durant's 19.2.  Now, Russ is shooting 24.5x per game vs Durant's 16.7.  So in moving to perhaps the best offensive team in the history of the game, Durant is only shooting 2.5 less times per game, while Russ is only soaking up about 6.5 of the 19 shots per game that left with Durant.  Do you think that if that number were fewer, the Thunder would win more games? I can't agree with that. Of his surrounding cast, how many of those guys can create their own shot? Maybe Oladipo and Roberson? Even that's being generous. On a bad Magic team that did him no favors last year, Oladipo averaged 16 ppg on 13.5 shots. Roberson has never had to shoulder enough of a load to make a fair comp.

Meanwhile, Russ is also third in the NBA at 10 assists per game, which is right in line with his 10.4 from last year (dishing to Durant and Ibaka, who is probably a better finisher than anyone left on the roster). So you can't exactly say Westbrook is ignoring his teammates. His assists per game are the same and he's soaked up less than 1/3 of the shots vacated when Durant left. 

Moral of the story is that I think its a little unfair to point to that cast and assign Westbrook the narrative of failing to make that team as good as it can be.

Westbrook is also getting to the line 3.7 more times per game than with Durant, which takes away a couple of FGA/game. He ALWAYS has the ball.

Westbrook has his lowest FG% since his second year in the league. His eFG is his second-lowest since 2010-11. He has already turned the ball over more times thru 64 games than in any other season in his career. His A/TO is an underwhelming 1.84 because of all his TOs (putting him right next to Derrick Rose's 1.83).

Also, playing for triple-doubles is different than "getting teammates involved." Sure, he averages a ton of assists but, again, he ALWAYS has the ball. The Thunder are 26th in the NBA in assists per game despite Russ' 10. Maybe someone can dig this up, but I'd be curious to see how many OKC possessions involve no one touching the ball but Westbrook. I only found a note on one game earlier this season where he attempted 16 FGs on possessions without passing. I'd like to see what the whole season looks like and how it compares to other teams. Not sure if that stat is even tracked but it'd be an interesting find.

There's no doubt that Westbrook is an amazing, all-time talent but I believe that he'd rather be the superstar on a 45-win team than viewed as the sidekick on a 60-win team.


Here's my question, if a coach had given a 28yo LeBron or Jordan or Kobe or pick your superstar free rein to go out and just put up numbers, wins be damned, don't you think that any of those guys could have averaged a triple double?

[MerrittsMustache]

Wade done for the season with a fracture in his elbow. Big question now: How many of their final 14 games can the Bulls lose?

[MU82]

I love Adams.  He might not be someone you can just throw the ball into and let him back his man down, but that's not basketball nowadays.  He wreaks absolute havoc on teams.  A much, much stronger Tristian Thompson.

I like Adams, too, and I'd want him on my team. But he certainly is not an offensive "stud" who has to have the ball to succeed. And I think you know that, based upon this response.

[Jockey]

Bingo.

Those players aren't the greatest group of players in the NBA, but they're not terrible.  Oladipo is good, Adams is a stud, Kanter isn't bad, Roberson is a good glue guy, Taj has proven to be a good player, McDermott can score, and Grant and Sabonis will be good players in a couple years (admittedly doesn't help now).

Westbrook is an insane talent, who helps nobody be a more efficient player.

I gotta disagree. There is little talent on the team - Is there even one other guy who is close to being an all-star?

This is the same that was said about Jordan during his first few years when the talent around him didn't measure up. Suddenly Pippen got a couple years under his belt and Jordan made his teammates better.

[wadesworld]

I gotta disagree. There is little talent on the team - Is there even one other guy who is close to being an all-star?

This is the same that was said about Jordan during his first few years when the talent around him didn't measure up. Suddenly Pippen got a couple years under his belt and Jordan made his teammates better.

Your last sentence seems to suggest that something opposite of what you're claiming in your post. Jordan didn't have the talent around him until that talent developed and he made the players around him better.

Do they have the talent to win a title? No. But they have more talent than they're given credit for. It's just hard to see it because only one guy gets to touch the ball all game.

[MUBurrow]

I'm just not convinced that the Thunder, as currently constructed, would win many, if any, more games with Westbrook playing differently. This has been a great stat-based discussion, and MM particularly pointed out some really good numbers re his EFG% and OKC's team assist numbers. But I think a lot of the criticism of Westbrook unfairly centers around subjective analysis of his motivations - hunting for triple-doubles, wanting to be the guy/not coexisting with Durant, etc. - rather than focusing on how Westbrook should play to enable this team to win as many games as possible.  Westbrook is so much better than the rest of the team, that I don't think a "less selfish" Westbrook results in more OKC wins.

At a superficial level, every opportunity Westbrook forgoes is an opportunity that has to be swallowed by someone else, and there's no one else on the roster I'd bet on against an even less-efficient Westbrook. At a deeper level, there's the argument that a less selfish Westbrook creates more opportunities and enables the team's efficiency to improve as a whole. That's a solid and fun argument, but its also a criticism that could be lodged against the PG of any losing team, and OKC's dearth of talent (imho) makes it unfair to pin the team's failings on Westbrook because he scores it well enough to make the team more competitive than it should be.

[wadesworld]

I'm just not convinced that the Thunder, as currently constructed, would win many, if any, more games with Westbrook playing differently. This has been a great stat-based discussion, and MM particularly pointed out some really good numbers re his EFG% and OKC's team assist numbers. But I think a lot of the criticism of Westbrook unfairly centers around subjective analysis of his motivations - hunting for triple-doubles, wanting to be the guy/not coexisting with Durant, etc. - rather than focusing on how Westbrook should play to enable this team to win as many games as possible.  Westbrook is so much better than the rest of the team, that I don't think a "less selfish" Westbrook results in more OKC wins.

At a superficial level, every opportunity Westbrook forgoes is an opportunity that has to be swallowed by someone else, and there's no one else on the roster I'd bet on against an even less-efficient Westbrook. At a deeper level, there's the argument that a less selfish Westbrook creates more opportunities and enables the team's efficiency to improve as a whole. That's a solid and fun argument, but its also a criticism that could be lodged against the PG of any losing team, and OKC's dearth of talent (imho) makes it unfair to pin the team's failings on Westbrook because he scores it well enough to make the team more competitive than it should be.

If Westbrook played differently Durant would probably still be on the Thunder and they would definitely have more wins if Durant was on the team.

[Jockey]

Also, playing for triple-doubles is different than "getting teammates involved." Sure, he averages a ton of assists but, again, he ALWAYS has the ball. The Thunder are 26th in the NBA in assists per game despite Russ' 10. Maybe someone can dig this up, but I'd be curious to see how many OKC possessions involve no one touching the ball but Westbrook. I only found a note on one game earlier this season where he attempted 16 FGs on possessions without passing. I'd like to see what the whole season looks like and how it compares to other teams. Not sure if that stat is even tracked but it'd be an interesting find.

There's no doubt that Westbrook is an amazing, all-time talent but I believe that he'd rather be the superstar on a 45-win team than viewed as the sidekick on a 60-win team.

I believe the Thunder are 30-8 when Westbrook has a triple double. So if winning is the most important thing, Westbrook needs the ball even more.

This team is basically the Brooklyn Nets if you take away Westbrook. With him, there is a chance in every game that you can win.

And, remember he is doing this with no help. This isn't him WITH Durant or Michael WITH Scottie or Steph WITH Thompson or Lebron WITH wade or Lebron With Kyrie.

It is all Westbrook and the Thunder are in the running for the #1 overall pick without him.

One guy can make good players better. No one can make bad players better. Michael couln't. Lebron couldn't. Westbrook can't.

As far as wanting to be a star rather than wanting to win? I would love to see any speck of truth to prove your point.

[MerrittsMustache]

Westbrook clinched averaging a triple double by shooting 6-25 with 8 TOs in a 21-point loss to an opponent who's actively tanking. Congrats, Russ.

[GGGG]

Westbrook clinched averaging a triple double by shooting 6-25 with 8 TOs in a 21-point loss to an opponent who's actively tanking. Congrats, Russ.

He's surrounded by a couple average players and a bunch of junk.  He has pretty much single handedly got them in the playoffs and above .500 in the West.