NBA '17

[MerrittsMustache]

Quentin Richardson played one season with Nash.  Amare and Marion made a combined 10 All Star games between them, and 9 of those came when they were playing next to Nash.  Joe Johnson is the only one who played better (or, for the rest of them, didn't take a significant decline after moving on from playing next to Nash) after playing with Nash, and I feel pretty confident in saying that had more to do with the fact that it was his first 4 years in the league as a 20-23 year old player.  It's not a coincidence that most players Nash played with had better than average years when they played with him.

Marion was an All-Star in 2002-03, before Nash arrived. Stoudemire averaged 21 and 9 as a 21yo the year before Nash arrived. There's no doubt Nash helped, but he was a stud regardless. He was also an All-Star in his first season in NY (before Melo arrived and injuries started to take over). D'Antoni's system also had a huge impact on those players' increased production. Nash was the ideal PG for D'Antoni's system and an excellent player but he got far too much credit.

[GGGG]

For some reason, it seems to be held against Pippen that he was the #2 behind the greatest player in history but it's some sort of a badge of honor for KG to have put up big numbers on average teams. If Seattle kept Pippen on draft night, and he put up monster numbers for some average late-80s Sonics teams would that have made him a better player? I, personally, am just not overly impressed with big numbers that don't result in anything significant for the team. You guys are welcome to disagree...and clearly you do! 

I'm not holding anything against Pippen.  I think he is a great player worthy of being the top 50 of all time. 

I just think KG is better.

[MU82]

I'm not holding anything against Pippen.  I think he is a great player worthy of being the top 50 of all time. 

I just think KG is better.

This is my stance, too ... mostly.

I remember when the All-time top 50 was chosen in 1997 that Pippen and Shaq were debated picks, Pip because he was a career second fiddle and Shaq because he had only played a few seasons to that point.

But I DO think Pip was top 50 in 1997 and I'm less sure he's still top 50 all-time. At least a half-dozen players have moved past him, and that doesn't count KG, Durant and Curry, among others. But I'd have to go over all of those '97 top-50 choices, including guys from the '50s and '60s, to see who might have been passed over instead of Pip ... and I'm FAR too lazy to do that!

My advantage over some folks is that I'm neither a Bulls fan nor a Bulls hater - nor a fan of any individual team. I have no rooting interests.

[GGGG]

This is my stance, too ... mostly.

I remember when the All-time top 50 was chosen in 1997 that Pippen and Shaq were debated picks, Pip because he was a career second fiddle and Shaq because he had only played a few seasons to that point.

But I DO think Pip was top 50 in 1997 and I'm less sure he's still top 50 all-time. At least a half-dozen players have moved past him, and that doesn't count KG, Durant and Curry, among others. But I'd have to go over all of those '97 top-50 choices, including guys from the '50s and '60s, to see who might have been passed over instead of Pip ... and I'm FAR too lazy to do that!

My advantage over some folks is that I'm neither a Bulls fan nor a Bulls hater - nor a fan of any individual team. I have no rooting interests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

Oh there's a few on there I would take off long before Pip:

Bill Walton
Pete Maravich
Dave DeBusschere
Billy Cunningham
Sam Jones
James Worthy

That being said there are a lot of players from the last 20 years that need to be on that list.  Lot more than a half dozen.  Duncan, Wade, Bryant, James, Iverson, Nowitski, Kidd, Nash, Durant, Paul,Curry...

[MU82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Greatest_Players_in_NBA_History

Oh there's a few on there I would take off long before Pip:

Bill Walton
Pete Maravich
Dave DeBusschere
Billy Cunningham
Sam Jones
James Worthy

That being said there are a lot of players from the last 20 years that need to be on that list.  Lot more than a half dozen.  Duncan, Wade, Bryant, James, Iverson, Nowitski, Kidd, Nash, Durant, Paul,Curry...

It's an interesting discussion.

For example, was Walton healthy enough long enough to really be better than Pippen, who had a long career that included a key role in 6 titles?

These are fun debates, as long as people don't take 'em too seriously!

[wadesworld]

https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/892849326296252417?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigplay.com%2Fvideo-lebron-james-snaps-at-sons-aau-game%2F

Yelling this to 12 year old kids.  What a guy.

[MU82]

https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/892849326296252417?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigplay.com%2Fvideo-lebron-james-snaps-at-sons-aau-game%2F

Yelling this to 12 year old kids.  What a guy.

I don't like that. Diminishes his stature as a dad and a human being. Doesn't diminish it all as a basketball player. I'm also guessing he doesn't care what we think about any of that!

[MerrittsMustache]

https://twitter.com/sportingnews/status/892849326296252417?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bigplay.com%2Fvideo-lebron-james-snaps-at-sons-aau-game%2F

Yelling this to 12 year old kids.  What a guy.

Almost 25 years ago my middle school coach (who was also the science teacher) said much worse things than that to his players and I can only imagine what some of these "frustrated athlete" AAU coaches say. I'm not saying I condone it, but it's just not all that newsworthy.

Honestly, the AAU basketball system itself is probably worse for these kids than anything a parent yells from the sidelines.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Honestly, the AAU basketball system itself is probably worse for these kids than anything a parent yells from the sidelines.

This +10000 I know players that the AAU circuit ruined.

[Pakuni]

Huh ...

 Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn
10m
Sources: Boston, Cleveland nearing deal on Kyrie Irving, but details still working to completion. Isaiah Thomas, Crowder, pick(s) in talks.

[rocket surgeon]

kyrie to celtics for isaiah...WOW!!    interesting.  so isaiah wants to share more than kyrie or what?

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-cavs-celtics-seriously-discussing-deal-swap-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-223024513.html?soc_trk=gcm&soc_src=5c839b50-00d3-37e8-a68f-7c03c48d7104&.tsrc=notification-brknews

  and JAE ??

[StillAWarrior]

kyrie to celtics for isaiah...WOW!!    interesting.  so isaiah wants to share more than kyrie or what?

https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-cavs-celtics-seriously-discussing-deal-swap-kyrie-irving-isaiah-thomas-223024513.html?soc_trk=gcm&soc_src=5c839b50-00d3-37e8-a68f-7c03c48d7104&.tsrc=notification-brknews

  and JAE ??

I think I like this trade.  IT, Jae, Zizic and Brooklyn's first rounder.  I love Kyrie, but he didn't want to be here any longer, and everyone knew it.  Honestly, I feared that nobody would offer much for him since it seemed kind of like the Cavs "had" to move him.  Either that, or he stays but is unhappy. 

[rocket surgeon]

not real sure of the kyrie chemistry.  is he a modern day version of melo?  cheezus man, just play ball

[GGGG]

Interesting that the Celtics traded the Nets pick in this deal but not for JFB.

[reinko]

not real sure of the kyrie chemistry.  is he a modern day version of melo?  cheezus man, just play ball

That Kyrie chemistry stuff is really overplayed.  Dude is a HOOPER and will fit in fine with the C's.  CLE got a nice haul of IT, Crowder for 3 more years making like 8 mil a year, and a BKLN pick most likely in the top 5.

C's grade: B+
CLE grade: A

[rocket surgeon]

That Kyrie chemistry stuff is really overplayed.  Dude is a HOOPER and will fit in fine with the C's.  CLE got a nice haul of IT, Crowder for 3 more years making like 8 mil a year, and a BKLN pick most likely in the top 5.

C's grade: B+
CLE grade: A

kyrie is without a doubt-GOOD!   but it's a weird thing to beach when ya only won the big one once out of the last 2 years    he is going to a good team that just got a little better, but there are no guarantees.   ride the wave and squeeze the juice outta what ya have and then move on.  not familiar with boston's supporting cast/bench, but on paper, the celtics will be contendas

[GGGG]

That Kyrie chemistry stuff is really overplayed.  Dude is a HOOPER and will fit in fine with the C's.  CLE got a nice haul of IT, Crowder for 3 more years making like 8 mil a year, and a BKLN pick most likely in the top 5.

C's grade: B+
CLE grade: A

Any chance Cleveland sends that draft pick elesewhere?

[DegenerateDish]

As soon as the Kyrie news hit in July, I knew there was no way he was going back to play in Cleveland, not the way that franchise is set up, and the LBJ stuff that was out there was completely legit. I thought Cavs actually got really good value back, I may even argue they got $1.05 back for him, pending the Nets pick. I had heard something was going down this week just didn't expect it so soon.

[wadesworld]

So the Cavs got a good scoring but absolutely atrocious defensive, 5'6" point guard who is going into the last year of his contract, a limited but tough junkyard dog, a guy nobody knows anything about, and a really good draft pick for a top 10 player in the NBA.  For as big of a mismatch as Kyrie was going to be with Thomas, he will be that same mismatch for Boston.  Boston got exactly what they needed this offseason in some scoring punch.  If I'm the C's I'm thrilled I didn't have to give up Brown or Tatum, and if I'm the Cav's I'm really disappointed one of those guys weren't included.  I like Crowder, but he is what he is.  The ceiling for Brown/Tatum is huge.  If the Nets pick turns out to be #1 that is big.  If it's 2 or 3 it's still nice, but I think the only sure fire guy in this upcoming draft is Bagley.  If the pick turns out to be Porter count me as unsatisfied if I'm the Cavs.

This just makes life easier on the C's.  The upcoming decision they had to make on what to do with Thomas is now on the C's, who are going to be losing LeBron.  Do you max out a 5'6", 28 year old point guard who can't defend anybody?  What would the C's have done with Brown/Tatum/Crowder/Hayward/Morris all playing the same positions?

If the pick turns out to be Bagley I think it's a win for both sides.  If it turns out to be someone else and you end up with a maxed out IT (or see him walk), Crowder, Zizic, and Porter and LBJ leaves...yuck.  That seems like a roster fighting for a 6-8 seed and in NBA purgatory.

[MerrittsMustache]

This trade was done for the Nets' pick. Either because Cleveland knows (or has a strong inkling) that LBJ is leaving after this season or because they think the #1 pick* will help convince him to stay. When he was 30, LeBron didn't want to play with Wiggins so I can't imagine he's going to want to play with Bagley/Porter at age 34.

* - Cleveland is landing the #1 overall pick. It hasn't been this certain since the commish mucked up NO's CP3 deal.

[MU82]

 I like the trade for both teams.

[GGGG]

I like the trade for both teams.

Yeah I fall that way too.  Trades can be win / win.

[MUBurrow]

As a franchise, Cleveland is in a dramatically better position after this deal. It keeps them competitive, if not better, this year - a decently healthy IT may be a little worse than Kyrie, but the Cavs needed a flexibile D guy like Jae more than anything, so that makes up for it. Even if IT doesn't come back full strength, they can say with a straight face that they did their best for this year.

Looking ahead, they'll have a lot more financial flexibility after taking away Kyrie's max deal and with IT's contract coming off the books. They can use that cap space and potentially the pick to bring in enough talent to convince LBJ to stay - or - if LBJ leaves, they'll have a jumpstart on their rebuild (though either way, those Thompson and Smith deals are albatrosses).

[StillAWarrior]

I like the trade for both teams.

As I said earlier in the thread (or was it the other one), I love Kyrie.  He's been an absolute blast to watch and has been instrumental in what the Cavs have accomplished over the past few years.  If this trade came out of the blue with a completely happy and content Kyrie...I'd hate it.  You just don't give up a player like Kyrie.

But, in context, I think it's a pretty good deal for the Cavs.  I also happen to think it's a great deal for the Celtics.  I think that the situation with Kyrie would have been difficult for the Cavs to deal with this year.  I think it would have affected the team quite a bit.  And I'm not suggesting that Kyrie is a chemistry problem, just that the situation -- especially after it went public -- would have created a chemistry problem.  So, all in all, I'm happy with the trade.  If Zizic is good and if the pick turns out to be a No. 1, all the better.  Oh...I almost forgot...Welcome to Cleveland, Jae!  Glad to have you.

[Jockey]

We'll have to wait and see how Brad Stevens reacts when Kyrie controls the ball for the 1st 18 seconds of the 24 second clock.

And then we'll see how Kyrie reacts after Stevens reacts.