NBA '17

[MU82]

I'm a Kevin Durant fan. He's fun to watch and is clearly the second-best player in the world right now. That said, I didn't get that "Hey, good for him" feeling when GS won last night. I don't blame him for leaving OKC and I can understand wanting to play for the best team in the league, but there's still something that just doesn't sit well with me. It's one thing for LeBron, Wade and Bosh to team up and see what they can accomplish together, but it's another for a superstar to go to a team that's already the best in the league and win a title. It's not that he didn't "deserve" it and it's not like he didn't earn it. He's now the best player on the best team and the Finals MVP, but it still feels like he took a shortcut.

Yeah, I don't get the "warm and fuzzies" about what Durant did, either. But I can't really say, "It doesn't sit well with me," either. It just doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. I understand why he did it ... and when he is making his Hall of Fame speech, few will be thinking about any shortcut that he might or might not have taken.

Like you, I don't begrudge LeBron for going to Miami; it was just the way he did it, with "The Decision," that was douchey. LeBron's return to Cleveland was a lot cooler.

[Pakuni]

Let's not nominate Durant for sainthood just yet.
He has 59 technicals in 703 career games, including eight this season.
LeBron has 55 technicals in 1,061 career games, including seven the last two seasons.

Cue "LeBron gets special treatment ..."

[MU82]

Let's not nominate Durant for sainthood just yet.
He has 59 technicals in 703 career games, including eight this season.
LeBron has 55 technicals in 1,061 career games, including seven the last two seasons.

Cue "LeBron gets special treatment ..."

Good info, Pakuni.

Of course, it really is possible that LeBron has gotten a little more slack from the refs, especially after he became a veteran while Durant was the "youngster." I don't know that; just speculatin'. As wades pointed out after Game 3, LeBron certainly should have been T-ed up for spiking the basketball - Green would have been, and maybe Durant, too.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

Let's not nominate Durant for sainthood just yet.
He has 59 technicals in 703 career games, including eight this season.
LeBron has 55 technicals in 1,061 career games, including seven the last two seasons.

Cue "LeBron gets special treatment ..."

Fair observation.  I admit my observation of Durant vs Lebron is of a miniscule sample size.  Sorry if I implied more than that.

[Pakuni]

Good info, Pakuni.

Of course, it really is possible that LeBron has gotten a little more slack from the refs, especially after he became a veteran while Durant was the "youngster." I don't know that; just speculatin'. As wades pointed out after Game 3, LeBron certainly should have been T-ed up for spiking the basketball - Green would have been, and maybe Durant, too.

I have no doubt LeBron has received special treatment. All NBA stars do, and the bigger the star, the more slack they get.
I posted the numbers less as praise for LeBron than to point out the Durant isn't a choir boy with these things.

[MerrittsMustache]

Durant also doesn't have much patience for mascots 

[GGGG]

Yeah, I don't get the "warm and fuzzies" about what Durant did, either. But I can't really say, "It doesn't sit well with me," either. It just doesn't elicit any emotion from me at all. I understand why he did it ... and when he is making his Hall of Fame speech, few will be thinking about any shortcut that he might or might not have taken.

Like you, I don't begrudge LeBron for going to Miami; it was just the way he did it, with "The Decision," that was douchey. LeBron's return to Cleveland was a lot cooler.

Earl the Pearl wanted out of Baltimore and got himself on a Knicks team that won a title.
Moses signed with the 76ers as a free agent when Houston couldn't get past the Lakers.
Clyde couldn't get it done in Portland and went to a team that already won a championship to collect his ring.

History treats these people well.  It doesn't give extra points to guys like Elgin Baylor who play for many years for one franchise and never get the ring.

[MU82]

Earl the Pearl wanted out of Baltimore and got himself on a Knicks team that won a title.
Moses signed with the 76ers as a free agent when Houston couldn't get past the Lakers.
Clyde couldn't get it done in Portland and went to a team that already won a championship to collect his ring.

History treats these people well.  It doesn't give extra points to guys like Elgin Baylor who play for many years for one franchise and never get the ring.

Good points, Sultan. Sometimes we forget that stuff actually happened before hashtags!

I was 11 when the Knicks traded for Monroe and I didn't become a Knicks fan until the following season - I was a late bloomer who hated sports until a friend got me interested - so I didn't know the history of Monroe going to NY until I read about it right now. Here is one account ...

That ring may have never belonged to Monroe, and his teammates on the 1972-73 Knicks, if not for the biggest trade in franchise history (until, perhaps, last February's Carmelo Anthony deal) on Nov. 10, 1971, which Monroe fondly recalls was three days shy of the month and date when Felix Unger was famously asked to remove himself from his place of residence. (That request came from his wife).

In the days leading up to that trade (the Knicks sent Dave Stallworth, Mike Riordan and cash to the Baltimore Bullets for Monroe), Monroe was angling for a trade to the Lakers, Bulls or 76ers.

"Larry Fleischer was my agent at the time, and after the [1970-71] season he told the Bullets that I wanted to be traded," Monroe recalled. "In the latter part of the summer they made a trade for Archie Clark, and I remember their statement saying that now we've got the best backcourt in the league, so I kind of took that as they weren't going to trade me.

"So we got four games into the season and still hadn't heard anything, so Larry called me and said, 'Earl, stay home.'"

Monroe stayed away from the Bullets, but instead of staying home he traveled to Indianapolis to meet with the Indiana Pacers of the rival ABA to discuss switching leagues -- a leverage ploy very much in vogue at the time as the league with the red, white and blue ball was becoming quite adept at pilfering players from the older, more established NBA.

It was in Indianapolis that the phone rang in Monroe's hotel room, with Fleischer on the other line.

"He said he had a trade for me with the Knicks, and my first impression was, 'Larry, that's not going to work,'" Monroe said. "It was because we played against the Knicks all the time, and they were the hated ones as far as we were concerned. But eventually I said give me a couple of days, and I went home to Philly and talked to my good friend, Sonny Hill, and my mom, and I emerged from those conversations saying I'm a basketball player, I can play with anyone in any style, and I'm going to come to New York."

And so commenced the union of Monroe and Walt "Clyde" Frazier in the Knicks' backcourt, a pairing that helped a team constructed around Willis Reed, Bill Bradley, Dave DeBusschere and Phil Jackson make it to the NBA Finals in 1972 and '73.

So the Pearl didn't exactly angle to go to the Knicks - they weren't even close to being his team of choice - but destiny landed him there. And despite the concerns of many, the Clyde/Pearl backcourt turned out to be one of the best of that era (and maybe any era).

[WarriorFan]

I didn't mention Durant whining in my post, only Green and Curry. And, as you later acknowledged, they whine a lot too.

NBA players NEVER think they travel. That one was quite egregious by LeBron - pretty easy to see with the naked eye, let alone slo-mo. But a few minutes later, Iguodala was called for traveling (and correctly so), and he whined about it.

It's what most players do. Those who don't, such as Durant (not often, anyway), are a nice change of pace!

I enjoyed the Warrior's win and am happy for Steph and Klay and the guys that they kept the magic formula and that Durant fit in.
What disappoints me greatly is the disintegration of some of the basic principles of the game - like traveling.  Harden is the worst, but watch LeBron inside and his "happy feet" are nearly as bad as the overweight 6th grader with glasses from the team I coached a couple years back when he gets the ball under the rim.  Kyrie, Steph, LeBron and Iguodala travel EVERY time they start a drive and nearly every time they finish.  Now 4 steps is called a "eurostep", not a travel and 5 steps is not uncommon.  6 gets called, unless your name is James Harden.  The "simulation" and swipe thru and sideways jump and the fouls off the high screen are all just crap and really ruin the game.  I know the change process will be painful, but the NBA can get rid of all this crap and make the game much better.

[MU82]

I enjoyed the Warrior's win and am happy for Steph and Klay and the guys that they kept the magic formula and that Durant fit in.
What disappoints me greatly is the disintegration of some of the basic principles of the game - like traveling.  Harden is the worst, but watch LeBron inside and his "happy feet" are nearly as bad as the overweight 6th grader with glasses from the team I coached a couple years back when he gets the ball under the rim.  Kyrie, Steph, LeBron and Iguodala travel EVERY time they start a drive and nearly every time they finish.  Now 4 steps is called a "eurostep", not a travel and 5 steps is not uncommon.  6 gets called, unless your name is James Harden.  The "simulation" and swipe thru and sideways jump and the fouls off the high screen are all just crap and really ruin the game.  I know the change process will be painful, but the NBA can get rid of all this crap and make the game much better.

This is not a new phenomenon.

Back in Jordan's day, opponents - and many observers of the game - say he got away with traveling all the time. Decades ago, I remember having a discussion with friends about what we liked/disliked about the pro game compared to the college game, and many said, "The NBA lets them travel, palm the ball and stand in the lane for 10 seconds."

I've gotten used to it as a "quirk" of the game; my main beef is if the refs let LeBron or Harden or whomever get away with an obvious travel ... and then call a foul to give them a 3-point play. That's adding insult to injury!

I think it goes under the "fans would rather see a travel that leads to a great basket than a traveling call." Not saying that's right; just saying that's the unwritten NBA "rule."

The thing I hate most are the moving screens. Pretty much every possession in the half-court includes multiple moving screens. And I'm not just talking about flinching or sliding 2 inches sideways. I'm talking about running into defenders, shoving defenders, hooking defenders, etc. It often takes place in the open court where anybody can see it but the refs will not call it.

Al Jefferson, when he was with the Hornets, would take both hands and either shove or grab an opponent, and it was never called. Zaza sets a moving screen on every possession. Curry sets probably 40 moving screens every game. What's funny is the reaction of a player the one time he gets called for a moving screen - he is absolutely stunned. And why shouldn't he be stunned? He got away with 15 or 20 of them already in the game!

This definitely has filtered down to the college level. I first started noticing its pervasiveness with the outstanding Illinois teams of the mid-aughts - James Augustine set a moving screen on probably 50% of their possessions and for some reason was never called for it. Now I see it all the time.

[forgetful]

This is not a new phenomenon.

Back in Jordan's day, opponents - and many observers of the game - say he got away with traveling all the time. Decades ago, I remember having a discussion with friends about what we liked/disliked about the pro game compared to the college game, and many said, "The NBA lets them travel, palm the ball and stand in the lane for 10 seconds."

I've gotten used to it as a "quirk" of the game; my main beef is if the refs let LeBron or Harden or whomever get away with an obvious travel ... and then call a foul to give them a 3-point play. That's adding insult to injury!

I think it goes under the "fans would rather see a travel that leads to a great basket than a traveling call." Not saying that's right; just saying that's the unwritten NBA "rule."

The thing I hate most are the moving screens. Pretty much every possession in the half-court includes multiple moving screens. And I'm not just talking about flinching or sliding 2 inches sideways. I'm talking about running into defenders, shoving defenders, hooking defenders, etc. It often takes place in the open court where anybody can see it but the refs will not call it.

Al Jefferson, when he was with the Hornets, would take both hands and either shove or grab an opponent, and it was never called. Zaza sets a moving screen on every possession. Curry sets probably 40 moving screens every game. What's funny is the reaction of a player the one time he gets called for a moving screen - he is absolutely stunned. And why shouldn't he be stunned? He got away with 15 or 20 of them already in the game!

This definitely has filtered down to the college level. I first started noticing its pervasiveness with the outstanding Illinois teams of the mid-aughts - James Augustine set a moving screen on probably 50% of their possessions and for some reason was never called for it. Now I see it all the time.

I didn't see a single screen that didn't involve grabbing, shoving or hooking.  It was terrible.

My biggest complaint was Lebron's apparent new move when double teamed of palm the ball through it (at least faking it as kind of a dribble) into open space and running to it (2-3 steps) and continuing a dribble to attack the hoop.  It's disgusting...its not basketball.

You are right though that in Jordan's day we said the same thing.  But they keep letting them get away with more.  One more step, palming the ball a little longer, a little more of a shove.  Lebron's main move is to charge right through the defender...he commits an offensive foul on probably 30% of his drives, while traveling.

He's not alone in this, but because of his size (like Shaq) it's more obvious. 

[MerrittsMustache]

The most talked about play of this year's Finals was the play were Curry dribbled around with LeBron on him until finally faking him out by picking up his dribble briefly and then dribbling again.

The NBA doesn't care about traveling, palming, carrying, etc. They care about star players and excitement.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The announcers have also gotten the memo about not calling traveling,  palming,  moving screens etc. In the last game, Green full on shoved Kyrie in the back with two hands,  nearly sending him to the ground,  which allowed curry to make an easy layup. The announcers then praised green for setting a great screen when they showed the replay.

One of the many reasons I watch a ton more college ball than professional.

[MU82]

The most talked about play of this year's Finals was the play were Curry dribbled around with LeBron on him until finally faking him out by picking up his dribble briefly and then dribbling again.

The NBA doesn't care about traveling, palming, carrying, etc. They care about star players and excitement.

There was one by Curry that was absolutely a double-dribble. 99% of refs, from grade-school on up, would have called it. Van Gundy and Jackson actually disagreed about it; one said it was a DD and the other didn't. It was SOOOO obvious.

But again, it wasn't so different from the kind of move Iverson made probably a dozen times every game. That doesn't "excuse" it, it just states a fact.

[Jockey]

I enjoyed the Warrior's win and am happy for Steph and Klay and the guys that they kept the magic formula and that Durant fit in.
What disappoints me greatly is the disintegration of some of the basic principles of the game - like traveling.  Harden is the worst, but watch LeBron inside and his "happy feet" are nearly as bad as the overweight 6th grader with glasses from the team I coached a couple years back when he gets the ball under the rim.  Kyrie, Steph, LeBron and Iguodala travel EVERY time they start a drive and nearly every time they finish.  Now 4 steps is called a "eurostep", not a travel and 5 steps is not uncommon.  6 gets called, unless your name is James Harden.  The "simulation" and swipe thru and sideways jump and the fouls off the high screen are all just crap and really ruin the game.  I know the change process will be painful, but the NBA can get rid of all this crap and make the game much better.

And make the players wear shorts instead of pedal pushers!

[GGGG]

I'd watch the NBA playoffs with its reffing every day of the week over the way the game is called in college.  I like the physicality and ethos of the league.

[MUfan12]

I'd watch the NBA playoffs with its reffing every day of the week over the way the game is called in college.  I like the physicality and ethos of the league.

Agreed. Sure, they miss calls. But at least you know what you're gonna get most nights.

[MU82]

I'd watch the NBA playoffs with its reffing every day of the week over the way the game is called in college.  I like the physicality and ethos of the league.

Oh, I love the NBA playoffs (although this year's involved too many blowouts). Doesn't mean I can't beyotch a little!

[CTWarrior]

...trying to rig the preseason draft, etc.

I coached youth league baseball and basketball for around 20 years and nothing drove me more crazy than this because I refused to do it.  I've seen coaches tell kids to play terribly in the evaluation phase and have kids not show up for evaluations.  The most common thing was getting the best kid(s) dad(s) to be the assistant(s) and then not keeping them as assistants the next year to get more of the best kids the following season.  Why on Earth would you want to rig the draft and win easily?  I got a league to institute a rule that kids who don't show up for evaluation days would not be subject to the draft, and would be picked randomly out of a hat, and the next year we had kids who showed up, signed in and left so a coach could steal them without a hat pick.  I once coached in a 12 year old PONY league where our all-star team made it all the way to the PONY World Series in California.  All three of the main starting pitchers on that World Series team, and 6 of the 9 guys in the starting lineup were on the same team during the season.

Best league I ever coached in was one where the guy who ran the league got rid of the draft and just made the teams himself.  The most evenly matched and competitive league I ever coached in.

[CTWarrior]

To be honest, I didn't see an entire call that entire series where someone wasn't whining to the refs. Its part of the game now. Lebron is hardly alone.

+100%.  There is whining in the NBA because the NBA apparently wants whining in the game.  It is the easiest thing in the world to stop.  Whine to the ref or question a call and you get a T.  Whining stops immediately.  Having the refs randomly determine when enough is enough makes it impossible.  Having a league that promotes its stars over teams makes it more difficult, since you're going to give Lebron or Curry a lot more leeway than some random 3rd guy off the bench.

[#UnleashSean]

I coached youth league baseball and basketball for around 20 years and nothing drove me more crazy than this because I refused to do it.  I've seen coaches tell kids to play terribly in the evaluation phase and have kids not show up for evaluations.  The most common thing was getting the best kid(s) dad(s) to be the assistant(s) and then not keeping them as assistants the next year to get more of the best kids the following season.  Why on Earth would you want to rig the draft and win easily?  I got a league to institute a rule that kids who don't show up for evaluation days would not be subject to the draft, and would be picked randomly out of a hat, and the next year we had kids who showed up, signed in and left so a coach could steal them without a hat pick.  I once coached in a 12 year old PONY league where our all-star team made it all the way to the PONY World Series in California.  All three of the main starting pitchers on that World Series team, and 6 of the 9 guys in the starting lineup were on the same team during the season.

Best league I ever coached in was one where the guy who ran the league got rid of the draft and just made the teams himself.  The most evenly matched and competitive league I ever coached in.

3 years ago I coached for a school that had '' evenly'' split a basketball team into two because they had to many kids. We did an evaluation night. And did a draft afterwards. That's when I realized it was all a sham. Excuse after excuse was made for why a kid had to be on that team.
 ''he's going to help coach two games so his son is on my team''
'' that kid is best friends with my kid so he needs to be on this team''
''this kid refuses to play unless I'm the coach of him"

It was ridiculous. I think I got two actual picks out of 20 kids.

[MU82]

I coached youth league baseball and basketball for around 20 years and nothing drove me more crazy than this because I refused to do it.  I've seen coaches tell kids to play terribly in the evaluation phase and have kids not show up for evaluations.  The most common thing was getting the best kid(s) dad(s) to be the assistant(s) and then not keeping them as assistants the next year to get more of the best kids the following season.  Why on Earth would you want to rig the draft and win easily?  I got a league to institute a rule that kids who don't show up for evaluation days would not be subject to the draft, and would be picked randomly out of a hat, and the next year we had kids who showed up, signed in and left so a coach could steal them without a hat pick.  I once coached in a 12 year old PONY league where our all-star team made it all the way to the PONY World Series in California.  All three of the main starting pitchers on that World Series team, and 6 of the 9 guys in the starting lineup were on the same team during the season.

Best league I ever coached in was one where the guy who ran the league got rid of the draft and just made the teams himself.  The most evenly matched and competitive league I ever coached in.

Pathetic. Adults have been ruining fun for kids since the beginning of time.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

3 years ago I coached for a school that had '' evenly'' split a basketball team into two because they had to many kids. We did an evaluation night. And did a draft afterwards. That's when I realized it was all a sham. Excuse after excuse was made for why a kid had to be on that team.
 ''he's going to help coach two games so his son is on my team''
'' that kid is best friends with my kid so he needs to be on this team''
''this kid refuses to play unless I'm the coach of him"

It was ridiculous. I think I got two actual picks out of 20 kids.

I was on one of those "super-teams" for basketball one year. It was three close friends who were probably the three best players in the league.

I really shouldn't have been on that team either because the way they split up the ages I was one of the oldest and biggest kids in the entire league.

It was actually kind of annoying to play on that team as a kid as well because all they did was pass the ball to each other and take a lot of shots. I got a lot of offensive rebounds that year.

[Pakuni]

Earl the Pearl wanted out of Baltimore and got himself on a Knicks team that won a title.
Moses signed with the 76ers as a free agent when Houston couldn't get past the Lakers.
Clyde couldn't get it done in Portland and went to a team that already won a championship to collect his ring.

History treats these people well.  It doesn't give extra points to guys like Elgin Baylor who play for many years for one franchise and never get the ring.

Just fyi, Moses was traded the 76ers for Caldwell Jones and a first-round pick (which became Rodney McCray).
And Drexler also was traded.

[GGGG]

Just fyi, Moses was traded the 76ers for Caldwell Jones and a first-round pick (which became Rodney McCray).
And Drexler also was traded.

Moses was traded after he signed a restricted free agent offer sheet.  The Rockets matched, but then traded him.

Drexler made his desire to be traded to a contender quite clear. 

My point is that stars have done what they needed to do to get themselves on contending teams to get their rings.  Durant was a free agent, so his path was easier.  But Moses and Clyde leveraged themselves how they could.