collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: The problem with Luke  (Read 7846 times)

bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8801
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2016, 08:08:23 AM »
Or Luke just needs to stop making stupid fouls. (Disclaimer, I didn't get to watch this game)
Luke has pretty much elimited the stupid reaching fouls he got last year. However, in last nights game his first foul was for not setting a proper pick. The coaching staff should concentrate very hard on this, because we cannot afford Fischer getting called for fouls on picks.

g0lden3agle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1046
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2016, 08:36:40 AM »
He can't jump! How often does he win the tip off?

It's official- Luke is officially the anit-Chris Otule.  Great offensively, middling defensively, and can't even win the tip, one of MUScoop's favorite aspect of what Christ brought to the table.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23357
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2016, 08:37:03 AM »
The problem with Luke is (A) the scheme and (B) his teammates.     If the other 4 guys on the floor were DJames, Blue, Butler, and Crowder, the team would have the same height it has now, but how different would the defense look?    The best defensive play of the night came with Duane flashing through and contesting at the rim.    Duane.    Contesting at the rim.    Duane.   Contesting at the rim. 
KR is a decent on-ball defender, as is HC, but right now neither one can put the ball in the lake.     Rowsey and Markus are 5'10.   JjJ gets steals, but is not a lock down defender.    Sam is fundamentally sound but frequently physically overmatched.    Everyone is guarding somebody bigger than they are out of necessity.   And none of them have a junkyard dog mentality.   

The one thing I will say about the defense is that MU is usually doing a good job of defensive rebounding.   Of course there are outliers, but in general, it has not been the game-in, game-out weakness I feared. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

MUfan12

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5592
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2016, 08:48:46 AM »
Wojo's defensive scheme might fit his vision, but it doesn't fit this roster. None of their guards are good enough on-ball defenders to guard 30 feet from the hoop. Neither big is quick enough to stay with a guard/wing on a drive after (inexplicably) switching on a screen. Luke is in no-mans land when he gets outside the paint, which leaves zero rim protection when the guards get beat off the bounce.

With this team, he needs to pack it in a bit. Pick guys up at the three point line. Hard show on the ball screens and get the hell back to the paint. Help Luke and Matt out with a hard double on a post catch. I know the emphasis is on turning teams over, but I'd trade turnovers for better 2PT FG defense.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12221
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2016, 09:22:17 AM »
Wojo's defensive scheme might fit his vision, but it doesn't fit this roster. None of their guards are good enough on-ball defenders to guard 30 feet from the hoop. Neither big is quick enough to stay with a guard/wing on a drive after (inexplicably) switching on a screen. Luke is in no-mans land when he gets outside the paint, which leaves zero rim protection when the guards get beat off the bounce.

With this team, he needs to pack it in a bit. Pick guys up at the three point line. Hard show on the ball screens and get the hell back to the paint. Help Luke and Matt out with a hard double on a post catch. I know the emphasis is on turning teams over, but I'd trade turnovers for better 2PT FG defense.

The scheme has to fit the players and their talent - not the other way around. Buzz used to say that every year was like building a house and the architect had to fit the plans to the materials available. The art of coaching.

WellsstreetWanderer

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2091
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2016, 11:14:59 AM »
Kept waiting for the double team on Carter the whole second half.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2016, 01:26:20 PM »
This does raise an interesting question. Even you are rebuilding do you use the defense that fits your personnel? Or do you teach the defense that your program will eventually be known for? Is Wojo teaching this defense because he wants the younger guys to have it mastered rather than having to teach a new defense every year? Is it better to be Buzz or Boeheim?
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Cooby Snacks

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 459
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2016, 01:42:28 PM »
In this case, maybe the vision needs some readjusting. Sure, Duke plays an extended pressure man defense, and it's worked quite well for them over the years. Duke also routinely gets some of the best recruits in terms of the overall package of bball IQ, skill, size, and athleticism. As good of recruiters as our staff might be, MU is not going to attract the same caliber players, so the scheme is not going to work as well. Certainly not now, probably not ever.

With this group in particular, I don't see the need to extend the defense so much. We've had teams in the past where it was necessary to create a ton of offense off turnovers, but these guys can basically get what they want in the halfcourt.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2016, 02:18:23 PM »
In this case, maybe the vision needs some readjusting. Sure, Duke plays an extended pressure man defense, and it's worked quite well for them over the years. Duke also routinely gets some of the best recruits in terms of the overall package of bball IQ, skill, size, and athleticism. As good of recruiters as our staff might be, MU is not going to attract the same caliber players, so the scheme is not going to work as well. Certainly not now, probably not ever.

I challenge this a little bit. I agree that we don't get freshmen of that caliber. But I think we get players who develop to that caliber by the time they are upperclassmen. Let's go to the way forward machine:

2018-2019 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)

While its too early to call this roster even likely, I don't think this is an unreasonable guess to 17-18 depth chart based on what we know now. That's a helluva team and one that could handle an extended man to man pressure defense. But it might not be possible if Howard, Cheatham, Sammy, Carter, Anim, and Heldt have learned a different defense every season.

Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 07:17:50 AM by TAMU Eagle »
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Marcus92

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2513
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2016, 03:25:22 PM »
You meant 2018-19 depth chart, right? 2017-18 would be next season, when Haanif is a junior and Markus and Sam are sophomores.
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Frenns Liquor Depot

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2016, 03:43:21 PM »
Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.

Here is what I don't understand, you shouldn't need 3-4 years to learn a defensive scheme - even if you are a 'system' coach.

Second - the upperclassman guards (specifically JJJ & DU) are now on their 3rd year in Wojo's defense scheme.  Something isnt clicking or they are not athletic enough to execute the defense - because we are constantly getting beat off the dribble and picks/switches throw the whole set into a tailspin.  I know we didn't run this defense exclusively, but enough that they know where they should be, how to switch, etc.

So a long way of saying, if this is our system, we either need much better players, much better instruction or a more flexible strategy that matches our personnel.   What I can say for certain is what we have seen to-date is just not working and I am very skeptical that waiting two more years is going to change that even with the players you reference.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22730
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2016, 05:05:54 PM »
Luke has pretty much elimited the stupid reaching fouls he got last year. However, in last nights game his first foul was for not setting a proper pick. The coaching staff should concentrate very hard on this, because we cannot afford Fischer getting called for fouls on picks.

I rewound that play and watched it a few times. I actually think Luke's teammate (in this case JJJ) needed to wait an extra half-second until Luke was set before running his man into Luke. Sometimes, the moving screens aren't the screener's fault. The rest of the game, I noticed that Luke made extra damn sure that he was set and held the screen an extra beat.

I agree we can't afford Luke to pick up a single moving-screen foul or a single hedge-the-guard-25-feet-from-hoop foul. We need him to make his fouls count: while protecting our basket.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8801
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2016, 05:39:39 PM »
I rewound that play and watched it a few times. I actually think Luke's teammate (in this case JJJ) needed to wait an extra half-second until Luke was set before running his man into Luke. Sometimes, the moving screens aren't the screener's fault. The rest of the game, I noticed that Luke made extra damn sure that he was set and held the screen an extra beat.

I agree we can't afford Luke to pick up a single moving-screen foul or a single hedge-the-guard-25-feet-from-hoop foul. We need him to make his fouls count: while protecting our basket.
[/quote
Wojo did say earlier in the season that a foul on a screen setter may be the fault of the player with the ball not waiting for the screen to be set. Whether it is the screener or the player with the ball this still needs to be concentrated on in practice. Both players need to learn to do it right. Heldt also has been called on a few of these. We simply cannot afford to have our centers setting screens, if the team is not going to do it right.

MarquetteDano

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3231
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2016, 05:43:13 PM »
Luke still has a 5% blk%, putting him around #200 in the nation. "Not going to block it" would be a bizarre thought by an opposing offense

Second, I think you underestimate the productivity of Luke's offense & its importance to the team. People don't put up 30 points a night in college bball... but Luke is putting up 138 Ortg on 21% usage. Very important, his offense

You are right in saying I am underestimating his offensive productivity. It is just so frustrating watching him on defense.  He is either not there protecting the rim or he just stands straight up which is great when trying to avoid fouls but players are often shooting over him.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2016, 06:22:23 PM »
You meant 2018-19 depth chart, right? 2017-18 would be next season, when Haanif is a junior and Markus and Sam are sophomores.

Yes, my bad
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2016, 06:50:01 PM »
Here is what I don't understand, you shouldn't need 3-4 years to learn a defensive scheme - even if you are a 'system' coach.

Second - the upperclassman guards (specifically JJJ & DU) are now on their 3rd year in Wojo's defense scheme.  Something isnt clicking or they are not athletic enough to execute the defense - because we are constantly getting beat off the dribble and picks/switches throw the whole set into a tailspin.  I know we didn't run this defense exclusively, but enough that they know where they should be, how to switch, etc.

So a long way of saying, if this is our system, we either need much better players, much better instruction or a more flexible strategy that matches our personnel.   What I can say for certain is what we have seen to-date is just not working and I am very skeptical that waiting two more years is going to change that even with the players you reference.

It shouldn't take 3-4 years to learn the system. But it might take 3-4 years to master it. Also, we played zone a vast majority of Wojo's first year and good portion of the last. So JJJ and Duane haven't been playing it for three years, they've really only been playing it this year and the last. Also, JJJ and Duane are two of our best defenders. If everyone was at their level, I think we would be ok. It's Luke's lack of lateral quickness that I think is the issue.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Frenns Liquor Depot

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3169
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2016, 07:15:26 PM »
It shouldn't take 3-4 years to learn the system. But it might take 3-4 years to master it. Also, we played zone a vast majority of Wojo's first year and good portion of the last. So JJJ and Duane haven't been playing it for three years, they've really only been playing it this year and the last. Also, JJJ and Duane are two of our best defenders. If everyone was at their level, I think we would be ok. It's Luke's lack of lateral quickness that I think is the issue.

Maybe - if a defense is so complex it takes 3-4 years to master it will fail in college unless you have the greatest of athletes...

I may be completely mis-diagnosing the situation and just need to wait 4 years, but our inability to stop the dribbler and constant breakdowns when switching not only have Luke out of position but our guards chasing to find their man as well. 

If it were me I would do something different kind of like what you reference wojo did in other seasons - or just do a m2m that picks up the ball just over the 3-pt line - but that is irrelevant.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2016, 09:42:07 PM »
Maybe - if a defense is so complex it takes 3-4 years to master it will fail in college unless you have the greatest of athletes...

I may be completely mis-diagnosing the situation and just need to wait 4 years, but our inability to stop the dribbler and constant breakdowns when switching not only have Luke out of position but our guards chasing to find their man as well. 

If it were me I would do something different kind of like what you reference wojo did in other seasons - or just do a m2m that picks up the ball just over the 3-pt line - but that is irrelevant.

I think we just disagree on what the term "master" means. This is the first year Wojo is trying to play his defense consistently. We'll see what the results end up being. I really think if we had a more mobile center it would make a world of difference.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12801
  • 9-9-9
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2016, 10:00:52 PM »
I challenge this a little bit. I agree that we don't get freshmen of that caliber. But I think we get players who develop to that caliber by the time they are upperclassmen. Let's go to the way forward machine:

2017-2018 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)

While its too early to call this roster even likely, I don't think this is an unreasonable guess to 17-18 depth chart based on what we know now. That's a helluva team and one that could handle an extended man to man pressure defense. But it might not be possible if Howard, Cheatham, Sammy, Carter, Anim, and Heldt have learned a different defense every season.

Not saying its right or wrong. Buzz was a master at adapting strategies to his personnel. Not sure if Wojo can do it that way. If it works out to having a team full of upperclassmen who have mastered a specific defense, I'm okay with it.
You are under rating Ike. He is going to be a monster player.
Winning is overrated. The only time it is really important is in surgery and war.
                       ---Al McGuire

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2016, 10:25:10 PM »
You are under rating Ike. He is going to be a monster player.

I hope so. But everything I have heard has said Ike is a project with a lot of upside while John is a more ready player now. I'm also assuming that Heldt would get the start as a senior but that's not for sure.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


WarriorFan

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1629
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2016, 11:47:47 PM »
The problem with Luke is that he's the only 6'11" guy on the team.
"The meaning of life isn't gnashing our bicuspids over what comes after death but tasting the tiny moments that come before it."

MarquetteDano

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3231
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #46 on: December 08, 2016, 06:03:08 AM »
The problem with Luke is that he's the only 6'11" guy on the team.

It is more than that.  The midget team with Lazar at 6'8" as a center and 6'6" Buter as a power forward was better defensively than this team.  This team has two legit bigs in Heldt and Fischer.

I am left blaming Wojo and the coaching staff.  I think a more experienced coaching staff would find a way to use our bigs more effectively on the defensive end.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2016, 06:20:36 AM »
2017-2018 depth chart:
1: Howard (JR), Carter (SR), Ayo Dosunmu/Courtney Ramey/TJ Moss (FR)
2: Cheatham (SR), Anim (RSJR)
3: S Hauser (JR), Cain (SO), Tim Finke/Torrence Watson/Race Thompson (FR)
4: J Hauser (FR), Bailey (20 year old FR)
5: Heldt (SR), John (SO), Eke (SO)

I think when you said 2017-18, you meant 2018-19. Regardless, this would be a fun team to watch in the opening season at the Benny B Thunderdome.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #48 on: December 08, 2016, 07:18:27 AM »
I think when you said 2017-18, you meant 2018-19. Regardless, this would be a fun team to watch in the opening season at the Benny B Thunderdome.

Marcus beat you to it  ;) But I went back and edited to avoid any further confusion.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


bilsu

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8801
Re: The problem with Luke
« Reply #49 on: December 08, 2016, 07:33:29 AM »
I think we just disagree on what the term "master" means. This is the first year Wojo is trying to play his defense consistently. We'll see what the results end up being. I really think if we had a more mobile center it would make a world of difference.
Team defense depends on all the players mastering it. Last year at times we were starting three freshmen. This year we are starting two freshmen. It takes time to learn. You could expect last year's three freshmen to be much better, but one is in the NBA and another has knee problems.

 

feedback