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Author Topic: Best back to back classes since when?  (Read 5752 times)

mu03eng

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2016, 08:37:36 AM »
Sam understands defensive principles and is generally where he is supposed to be in theory.    And he scraps like crazy.    Two very important pieces.  He is young and skinny right now and he is physically overmatched at times.   No shame in that for a freshman.    As he adds muscle and gains experience, he will only get better at defending opposing 4's.    If he had shoulders and arms like KR right now, he might be the best player on the team.   

He can definitely be the best player in spurts, but you are right until he gets some maturity and muscle he's just not going to be able to dominate game in and out. Having said all that, he is definitely my second favorite on this team.
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MU82

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2016, 08:45:22 AM »
He can definitely be the best player in spurts, but you are right until he gets some maturity and muscle he's just not going to be able to dominate game in and out. Having said all that, he is definitely my second favorite on this team.

So who is third behind Deon and Sam?
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Marqevans

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2016, 08:51:34 AM »
Al getting Jim Chones in 1970, Larry McNeil, in 1971, Maurice Lucas in 1972, (cant remember 1973), Bo Ellis and (Bernard Toone?) in 1974 has to be right up there with back to back classes.

muwarrior69

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2016, 09:01:07 AM »
I'm plenty impressed by Sam's 3-point shooting - I actually am stunned when he misses, a situation that reminds me of how I felt during the Novak years.

Yesterday, I was really impressed by two other shots he made: a nice fade-away 12-footer from the right baseline, and an oustanding shot from the lane on a post-up. The kid definitely has offensive game, and his D isn't all that bad - and will get better with maturity and more strength.

Sam also is the kind of player who can be huge for a program because he's just good enough to excel but not quite spectacular enough to leave early. I saw that at Illinois in the early- to mid-aughts when they had Cook, Deron Williams, Brown, Augustine, Head, Ingram, Powell, etc. Only Williams left early, and that was after three years. No wonder they won a lot during that span.

If Joey really is better than Sam, and if we get him too ... wow!

Sam had a nice layup under the basket faking out his opponent as well. The kid can play, and to my eyes a more complete player than Henry was last year. And Joey is suppose to better?

tower912

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2016, 09:18:40 AM »
I disagree with the assessment that Sam is 'better' than Henry.    Sam is more willing to let the game come to him and take what he can get in the context of the offense.    And he is currently shooting far better from 3.      Henry dictated the flow of the game and forced other teams to game plan for him.       Sam is part of the offense (and a good one), Henry was the offense, with some help from others.  And Henry could get a defensive rebound in traffic, dribble the length of the floor and finish on the run with either hand.    I don't think Sam is there.   Yet.   But Sam is likely to be at MU for 4 years.     And I am really looking forward to that. 

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mu03eng

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2016, 09:19:22 AM »
So who is third behind Deon and Sam?

John Dawson
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Dawson Rental

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #31 on: December 05, 2016, 09:22:23 AM »
Bo's final parting gift to MU, the Hauser bros.

ChitownSpaceForRent should be ChitownJoey.

Where do I send the rent check?
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

mu03eng

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #32 on: December 05, 2016, 09:23:20 AM »
I disagree with the assessment that Sam is 'better' than Henry.    Sam is more willing to let the game come to him and take what he can get in the context of the offense.    And he is currently shooting far better from 3.      Henry dictated the flow of the game and forced other teams to game plan for him.       Sam is part of the offense (and a good one), Henry was the offense, with some help from others.  And Henry could get a defensive rebound in traffic, dribble the length of the floor and finish on the run with either hand.    I don't think Sam is there.   Yet.   But Sam is likely to be at MU for 4 years.     And I am really looking forward to that.

I agree with this analysis. If you are measuring skill sets and physical attributes, Henry is better than Sam right now. If you are measuring Sam vs Henry within the construct of Marquette's offense and defense, they are very close right now with Sam likely to be "better" by end of this year or next year. But Sam also has more mature players around him like Haanif, Traci, Rowsey, etc that help shape his game.
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cheebs09

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #33 on: December 05, 2016, 09:29:04 AM »
I think if Henry had the shooters around him that we do now, he would have been more efficient. This is assuming our offense wouldn't  still be "Give it to Henry and hope." He wouldn't have had to force as much and would have had more room to operate.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #34 on: December 05, 2016, 09:29:57 AM »
John Dawson

This is why I don't understand the Wojo can't coach argument.  Dawson has not set the world on fire at Liberty, yet under Wojo at MU he was a Magic Johnson clone.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2016, 09:30:13 AM »
Best back to back recruiting classes since when?

If you look at last year’s and this year’s classes, you have to give WOJO an A, and I am thinking about the these classes being the best back to back classes since when?

HE  One and done   Hit
HC  Hit potential superstar
TC Solid only to get better
Matt Heldt solid only to get better
MH Hit- potential superstar
SH- Hit- potential  superstar
Sacar Amin-  incomplete

Stan had me convinced that HC ad Howard where difference makers before they arrived.  Wojo felt the same about Sam and felt he was under the radar some based on the quality of teammates at SPLASH.  Very high on next year’s class, especially in regard to defense and boards plus bailey. 

My vote for best back to back classes  since 80-81   (doc rivers/MM- Johnson brothers)   Could make argument for Wade-Deiner.    Or do we have to go back to Al’s last classes.   Talk amongst yourselves. 

GA fans where very confident they were going to win today.  This was an important game for them and was one they were all in on.  It was a big win.   All of the made 3pts, especially in the 1st half was driving the GA fans crazy.

PS  Don't want to sound like a creeper, but they had some really nice cheerleaders.

Big Daddy,

You count Henry as part of last year's recruiting as a "hit" but don't even mention Katin Reinhardt in this year's class. He was a very good player, yes, but from a program standpoint is a one and done who doesn't even get you to the NIT and costs you other good players (Levin, maybe Washington and others) a "hit"? Not so much for me. If Katin helps us get into the tournament, though, he may be.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 09:32:22 AM by Lennys Tap »

fjm

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2016, 09:35:50 AM »
Big Daddy,

You count Henry as part of last year's recruiting as a "hit" but don't even mention Katin Reinhardt in this year's class. He was a very good player, yes, but from a program standpoint is a one and done who doesn't even get you to the NIT and costs you other good players (Levin, maybe Washington and others) a "hit"? Not so much for me. If Katin helps us get into the tournament, though, he may be.

Without HE, MU would have gone 10-20.

HE was a hit.

Also looks like Daddy didn't include transfers. Ah well. So the list is just high schoolers.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2016, 09:36:01 AM »
I agree with this analysis. If you are measuring skill sets and physical attributes, Henry is better than Sam right now. If you are measuring Sam vs Henry within the construct of Marquette's offense and defense, they are very close right now with Sam likely to be "better" by end of this year or next year. But Sam also has more mature players around him like Haanif, Traci, Rowsey, etc that help shape his game.

I lean more towards tower's take.  Sam has a great advantage in that he was not expected to do more than find his role in the offense where the expectations for Henry were much greater in that he had to be the first option on offense.  Sam's surrounded by a better more balanced and mature team, and it allows him to shine within the team concept.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2016, 09:40:48 AM »
I lean more towards tower's take.  Sam has a great advantage in that he was not expected to do more than find his role in the offense where the expectations for Henry were much greater in that he had to be the first option on offense.  Sam's surrounded by a better more balanced and mature team, and it allows him to shine within the team concept.

Plus last year we had only 3 players that could create their own shot - HE, JJJ and DU (some games only).  HE was trying to be the go-to guy on a team with very poor guard play versus Sam playing a role as a second/third option on a team with much improved guards.  I just don't know you can compare the situations.

That being said I already like Sam more because I feel that he will be with us for a while.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2016, 09:44:02 AM by Frenns Liquor Depot »

Goose

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2016, 09:58:07 AM »
Big Daddy,

I have to put my thinking cap on, but think this might be a stretch. In addition, you are a pretty high grader on the fella's. I will keep track of your grades and see where they fit two years from now. That said, on the surface the trend is favorable.

wadesworld

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2016, 10:02:33 AM »
From what I've seen of Sam vs. Joey:

Sam is a slightly better shooter and isn't very likely to physically dominate a defender.  Joey's skillset is more of Hank, a bigger guy who can handle the ball and shoot so opponents have decide whether to put a smaller guy on him who can contain the dribble but will get beat up all day down low or a big who will get beat off the dribble on him.  I would say Joey is much more Hank than Sam, but he is a Hank who is willing to get others involved and much more willing to let the game come to him.  He's already, as a junior in high school, a much better defender than Hank was at MU.  If Joey were to come to MU he wouldn't put up the big numbers Hank did, but he would be a lot more efficient in his play.  He can rebound, shoot, dribble, and defend.  He's the whole package.

Compared to Sam he's quicker on the dribble, stronger and has some legitimate big man footwork/post moves, but Sam is a better shooter (again, Joey can definitely still shoot it, but Sam...oooeeee!).
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mu03eng

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2016, 10:05:33 AM »
This is why I don't understand the Wojo can't coach argument.  Dawson has not set the world on fire at Liberty, yet under Wojo at MU he was a Magic Johnson clone.

Using Magic Dawson in any argument either for or against Wojo's ability to coach is a fools errand.
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HoopsterBC

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2016, 10:16:19 AM »
From what I've seen of Sam vs. Joey:

Sam is a slightly better shooter and isn't very likely to physically dominate a defender.  Joey's skillset is more of Hank, a bigger guy who can handle the ball and shoot so opponents have decide whether to put a smaller guy on him who can contain the dribble but will get beat up all day down low or a big who will get beat off the dribble on him.  I would say Joey is much more Hank than Sam, but he is a Hank who is willing to get others involved and much more willing to let the game come to him.  He's already, as a junior in high school, a much better defender than Hank was at MU.  If Joey were to come to MU he wouldn't put up the big numbers Hank did, but he would be a lot more efficient in his play.  He can rebound, shoot, dribble, and defend.  He's the whole package.

Compared to Sam he's quicker on the dribble, stronger and has some legitimate big man footwork/post moves, but Sam is a better shooter (again, Joey can definitely still shoot it, but Sam...oooeeee!).

To add,  Sam is really a SF and Joey is more of a PF.  But what is good about both, there interchangeable.  Joey has a much bigger physical presense, and in 2 years
should be even bigger physically, will be able to guard the stronger player, like Maten

Herman Cain

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2016, 11:55:50 AM »
I disagree with the assessment that Sam is 'better' than Henry.    Sam is more willing to let the game come to him and take what he can get in the context of the offense.    And he is currently shooting far better from 3.      Henry dictated the flow of the game and forced other teams to game plan for him.       Sam is part of the offense (and a good one), Henry was the offense, with some help from others.  And Henry could get a defensive rebound in traffic, dribble the length of the floor and finish on the run with either hand.    I don't think Sam is there.   Yet.   But Sam is likely to be at MU for 4 years.     And I am really looking forward to that.
Sam comes from a culture of winning basketball. He has extremely high basketball IQ, he makes the players around him better and his shot not only  looks good, but also goes in with amazing frequency.
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MU82

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2016, 12:05:33 PM »
Comparing Sam to Henry doesn't especially do justice to either.

Quite different players, skillsets, expectation levels, etc.

I was thrilled we had Henry last season and would have welcomed him back had he gone crazy and had a change of heart.

I am thrilled we have Sam this season (and for several more).

As for Joey, I approve of Marquette signing him. He sounds like a tall, muscular version of me.

Except with talent.

And hair.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #45 on: December 05, 2016, 12:11:03 PM »
Henry could do things Sam can't.

Because of that Henry sometimes tried to do things he shouldn't.

Some pluses, some minuses.

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #46 on: December 05, 2016, 12:36:41 PM »
Henry could do things Sam can't.

Because of that Henry sometimes tried to do things he shouldn't.

Some pluses, some minuses.
I agree with this analysis

#UnleashSean

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #47 on: December 05, 2016, 12:59:30 PM »
I wouldn't put heldt at a solid getting better player. We just classified his best game ever as a 4pt 4 rebound. Let's not jump over the moon yet.

mu03eng

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #48 on: December 05, 2016, 01:36:32 PM »
I wouldn't put heldt at a solid getting better player. We just classified his best game ever as a 4pt 4 rebound. Let's not jump over the moon yet.

Offense you usually comes last for a big when they are developing, but your point is not wrong.
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79Warrior

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Re: Best back to back classes since when?
« Reply #49 on: December 05, 2016, 01:41:34 PM »
This is why I don't understand the Wojo can't coach argument.  Dawson has not set the world on fire at Liberty, yet under Wojo at MU he was a Magic Johnson clone.

Dawson did light up Indiana with two points when they played a few weeks ago. :)