Professional attire

[mu03eng]

Basic rule of thumb:  If the answer to "Is this a professional look?" is "maybe", default to "no".

I tend to think the people who are in the no or maybe category aren't even asking the question.

[mu03eng]

I'll take it a step further... Every man and woman still working in a Fortune 100/500/1000 workplace after their first 60-90 days knows damn well what is acceptable and what is not.  There is no maybe... those who choose to push the envelope are either trying to draw attention to themselves or make a statement, period*.  Those who have a blatant disregard for standards, i.e. lack attention to detail, aren't going to make it past the probationary period.


* Except in cases where the stereotypical "personal secretary," i.e. those ladies who are being paid to cross the line, is sitting outside the C-suite that is still occupied by filth... but their days are numbered in the business world.  Oh, and maybe the tooth jockeys, too... probably should make an exception there as well.

Dunno, society is changing and impacting the workplace as well in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't. Casual wear is getting to be closer and closer to the norm in the workplace because it's nearly universal outside of the workplace. Don't get me wrong, if I thought it would have zero impact on how I was perceived and/or treated in the workplace I would be the first guy in the office in cargo shorts, t-shirt and ball cap. However, I find that almost universally I'm "over dressed" for the setting. My wife gives me a hard time when we go to a musical or classier event and I put on "slacks and a sport coat"...always asks when I'm getting my gold sweater vest. No matter how much I hate the clothes I'd much rather be the overdressed person than the underdressed person. I think we've gotten to the point in society where the majority fit in the underdressed category.

I blame my mother for making me wear nice clothes to church and/or any concert event I went with them to.

*not a value judgement, just an observation

[MU B2002]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O47HASywXnU

[muwarrior69]

Dunno, society is changing and impacting the workplace as well in terms of what is acceptable and what isn't. Casual wear is getting to be closer and closer to the norm in the workplace because it's nearly universal outside of the workplace. Don't get me wrong, if I thought it would have zero impact on how I was perceived and/or treated in the workplace I would be the first guy in the office in cargo shorts, t-shirt and ball cap. However, I find that almost universally I'm "over dressed" for the setting. My wife gives me a hard time when we go to a musical or classier event and I put on "slacks and a sport coat"...always asks when I'm getting my gold sweater vest. No matter how much I hate the clothes I'd much rather be the overdressed person than the underdressed person. I think we've gotten to the point in society where the majority fit in the underdressed category.

I blame my mother for making me wear nice clothes to church and/or any concert event I went with them to.

*not a value judgement, just an observation

The downward spiral all started when MU dropped the dress code in '68 requiring us "gents" to wear Jackets and ties for dinner.

[warriorchick]

The downward spiral all started when MU dropped the dress code in '68 requiring us "gents" to wear Jackets and ties for dinner.

No, when it really went to hell is when coeds were allowed to wear slacks to class.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I'm always better dressed than my peers, but I attribute that to habits from high school.  I had to wear a sport coat and a tie everyday except those very occasional casual days which meant khakis & a polo shirt.  The Brother's would come down hard on any dress code violation, especially jeans!

[CTWarrior]

I'm always better dressed than my peers, but I attribute that to habits from high school.  I had to wear a sport coat and a tie everyday except those very occasional casual days which meant khakis & a polo shirt.  The Brother's would come down hard on any dress code violation, especially jeans!

I went to ND Fairfield and I once got a detention because my shirt didn't match my tie! 

That was from a layperson teacher, too.  To be fair to the teacher, I wore a plaid shirt and had a solid tie in my locker, but my older brother (we knew each other's locker combination) forgot to bring a tie and borrowed it before I got to school, leaving me with only a patterned one, so it was pretty bad.

[mu03eng]

I went to ND Fairfield and I once got a detention because my shirt didn't match my tie! 

That was from a layperson teacher, too.  To be fair to the teacher, I wore a plaid shirt and had a solid tie in my locker, but my older brother (we knew each other's locker combination) forgot to bring a tie and borrowed it before I got to school, leaving me with only a patterned one, so it was pretty bad.

Sounds pretty serious

[muwarrior69]

Sounds pretty serious

Back in the day it was.

[dgies9156]

I have been a woman for most of my life.

Chick, since we've met before, I would say that given the above statement, that's quite a re-engineering job.

On the broader question of workplace attire, I'm an old-schooler. You go to work to work. You respect the environment you are in and you dress for the success you hope to have. I'm a big believer that men in the workplace should dress conservatively, leave the jeans, tank tops, shorts and clothing with advertisements at home. I admit, I wear my suits to work most days, but I am communicating something when I do -- I'm dead serious. Take note you Millennials!

For women, trying to be provocative in a workplace environment is a bad idea. A very bad idea. I understand the individualism associated with a personal statement, especially for women, but the clothing one wears sends a message about who you are and to what you aspire to be. I'm an old-schooler here in that I believe women should be professional and conservative in how they present themselves. You can still be elegant, but the elegance doesn't mean dressing for the pick-up bar or evening  cocktail party.

The feminine workplace rule is why I sometimes grimace at what I see on television in Chicago. I don't pretend I don't like some of it, but a professional, serious image is not enhanced by an anchor whose cleavage real estate is fully opened to the sunshine or a weatherwoman who has a Size 3 figure and wears a Size 0 dress!

[4everwarriors]

So watt you're really sayin' is, one doesn't chit in da same place dey eat, ai na?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

I went to ND Fairfield and I once got a detention because my shirt didn't match my tie! 

That was from a layperson teacher, too.  To be fair to the teacher, I wore a plaid shirt and had a solid tie in my locker, but my older brother (we knew each other's locker combination) forgot to bring a tie and borrowed it before I got to school, leaving me with only a patterned one, so it was pretty bad.

Being the 80's and all, the brother who ran the bookstore, Brother Benjamin, was notorious for grabbing students by the sport coat collar and yanking them into the bookstore because their collars were turned up.

[warriorchick]

I'm always better dressed than my peers, but I attribute that to habits from high school.  I had to wear a sport coat and a tie everyday except those very occasional casual days which meant khakis & a polo shirt.  The Brother's would come down hard on any dress code violation, especially jeans!

dgies will appreciate this - at our high school (at least during the time I attended), there was a very strict dress code for the girls, including a the requisite uniform plaid skirt.  The guy's dress code was any kind of non-jean pants, any kind of collared shirt, and a tie - in any color combo.  I remember receiving a detention for wearing a navy track jacket instead of a navy cardigan sweater, and in order to hand me the detention slip, the teacher walked past a guy wearing a leopard-print tie, striped shirt, and plaid pants.

[mu03eng]

dgies will appreciate this - at our high school (at least during the time I attended), there was a very strict dress code for the girls, including a the requisite uniform plaid skirt.  The guy's dress code was any kind of non-jean pants, any kind of collared shirt, and a tie - in any color combo.  I remember receiving a detention for wearing a navy track jacket instead of a navy cardigan sweater, and in order to hand me the detention slip, the teacher walked past a guy wearing a leopard-print tie, striped shirt, and plaid pants.

In elementary school (public school in Ohio) the only real dress code was that boys couldn't wear shorts after October 15th and before April 15th. One year we got a week in late March where is was super hot but the school refused to allow boys to wear shorts. I happened to notice that girls were allowed to wear skirts and dresses. This was an outrage, AN OUTRAGE I TELL YOU, so I organized a group of friends to circumvent the no shorts rule....we all wore skirts one day because there was no rule against that for boys.

The no shorts time frame disappeared the following year for some reason.

[dgies9156]

dgies will appreciate this - at our high school (at least during the time I attended), there was a very strict dress code for the girls, including a the requisite uniform plaid skirt.  The guy's dress code was any kind of non-jean pants, any kind of collared shirt, and a tie - in any color combo.  I remember receiving a detention for wearing a navy track jacket instead of a navy cardigan sweater, and in order to hand me the detention slip, the teacher walked past a guy wearing a leopard-print tie, striped shirt, and plaid pants.

You are right Chick, I laughed pretty hard. Nobody -- and I mean nobody -- ever accused Father Ryan students of having good taste.

You got detention? No work crew? Geeze, life was a whole lot easier when you were there. Work crew when I was there was the Father Ryan version of the chain gang and students who broke even the most menial of rules ended up collecting trash, cleaning bathrooms, sweeping or any other menial job the proctor could heap on us.

But Chick, you did not commit the sin for which you would be sent to confession and then condemned to hell -- being a young woman with a skirt of inadequate length. As judged by Murray Lynch and/or Sister John!!!!!

[muwarrior69]

I liked this flick and it is somewhat on topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZU3Xban0Y6A

[Benny B]

dgies will appreciate this - at our high school (at least during the time I attended), there was a very strict dress code for the girls, including a the requisite uniform plaid skirt.  The guy's dress code was any kind of non-jean pants, any kind of collared shirt, and a tie - in any color combo.  I remember receiving a detention for wearing a navy track jacket instead of a navy cardigan sweater, and in order to hand me the detention slip, the teacher walked past a guy wearing a leopard-print tie, striped shirt, and plaid pants.

Elementary school for boys was blue slacks or corduroys, and a collared white, yellow or light blue shirt.  Same shirts for the girls with the ubiquitous plaid skirt (or jumper up to 4th grade), though they had the pants option anytime Nov-Feb or when temps were expected to be below 32degF.  High school was solid color pants or skirt (for the girls), no denim except on two Fridays/month, and a collared shirt of any color/colors provided there were no pictures, writing, characters, etc. and no logos bigger than 1".  If you were on a varsity or JV team, those boys wore a tie & girls wore either a dress or slacks & blouse on game day.  A couple here and there bent the rules (sometimes involuntarily), but the teachers/admin were pretty lax in enforcement.  I never saw anyone ever reprimanded for dress code violation, but nobody really pushed the envelope either.  There was one rule, however, that no one dared violate: no shorts, ever, not even on "free" or "dress down" days.

Imagine my surprise going to the uniform sale for my kids and being handed a pair of shorts for my son; in retrospect, the lady behind the table must have thought I was an idiot when I held up - what was obviously a pair of boys' shorts - and said "what's this for?"  "They're shorts."  Indeed they were shorts.... shorts, mind you, which the kids are allowed to wear anytime throughout the year (a right which I oft see exercised by the 7th and 8th graders when there's fresh snow on the ground).

[warriorchick]

You are right Chick, I laughed pretty hard. Nobody -- and I mean nobody -- ever accused Father Ryan students of having good taste.

You got detention? No work crew? Geeze, life was a whole lot easier when you were there. Work crew when I was there was the Father Ryan version of the chain gang and students who broke even the most menial of rules ended up collecting trash, cleaning bathrooms, sweeping or any other menial job the proctor could heap on us.

But Chick, you did not commit the sin for which you would be sent to confession and then condemned to hell -- being a young woman with a skirt of inadequate length. As judged by Murray Lynch and/or Sister John!!!!!

Oh, we still had work crew.  Don't forget that included sweeping cigarette butts off the smoking porch (my kids don't believe me that you were allowed to smoke at school - at a Catholic school on top of it). As a general rule, that assignment seemed fair since most of the smokers were delinquents.

And as I recall I didn't have to actually serve on work crew for my violation.  I must have been able to successfully point out the injustice inherent in our dress code.

Speaking of Murray Lynch, one of my very good friends wound up marrying John Murray Lynch III.  They had all sons, of course.  But surprisingly, no JML IV.

[keefe]

Back in my day we were required to wear jackets at all times and especially to Mass!

If Scotty would spend more time running the damn school and less time crafting weepy love poems there would be an adherence to the time-honored traditions!

[Herman Cain]

I'm starting a thread that may go down some awful paths but it'd be nice to get some feedback from the many MU professionals out there.

Let me preface this with saying I recognize how much harder it is to navigate professional attire for women than men....men essentially have 4 uniform choices polo or button down, dress pants or jeans....with some tech folks going shorts I suppose.

I have someone working for me that I've received complaints from a few coworkers(all female) that this individual(female) wears leggings with nothing that fully covers the pelvic area and that they are inappropriate. First, I don't think this employee is wearing anything I haven't seen my wife or a million other women wearing over the last couple of years out in public. The question is, is it appropriate for the employee to wear it at work?

The attire is basic black leggings with a top of some sort that comes down to the hip typically. Again, I think society has completely accepted it in the general public but should it be acceptable with the work place(Fortune 100 company in this case)? I don't like dress codes generally, but when you get some complaints, they need to be addressed one way or the other. I lean toward, no issue, but curious what others have seen or experienced.

My view is employees can wear what they want to work if they are strictly internal. All I care about is that they get the job done effectively and efficiently. So I would say yes to the leggings and ignore the commentary from the peanut gallery.

The minute employees go external they need to be professionally and conservatively dressed. The only exception to the external rule is if your in a hipster creative flow dominated industry. In that case being conservatively attired is a liability. 

[keefe]

I'm starting a thread that may go down some awful paths but it'd be nice to get some feedback from the many MU professionals out there.

Navy

In all seriousness I think that wardrobe standards depend on industry and region.

In the PNW, where tech and west coast mores dominate, business casual means something very different than in the Midwest, East Coast, and the South.

Around MSFT, Amazon, Google, f5, and their myriad of spin offs the norm in summer is shorts and flip flops and fleece the rest of the year.

What you cite as a potential workplace dress code issue in Milwaukee is accepted in Seattle. Women in law firms wear tights to the office. (And God help anyone who tries to tell an employee that tights are unacceptable work wear.)

What plays in Seattle might not fly in Milwaukee.

[dgies9156]

What plays in Seattle might not fly in Milwaukee.

No S*it!!!!

Your work attire, sorry Millennials, shows respect for the people around you. You come in in flip flops and shorts and you're not respecting your job. You are not conveying seriousness.

If I'm a techie and want to stay a Techie First Class, then I dress down and look like Maynard Ferguson from Dobie Gillis. But if I want to run the whole enchilada someday, I dress like it and act like it.

Success is a holistic concept. Everything you say. Everything you do. Everyway in which you present yourself signals your commitment to success. Period.

[jesmu84]

No S*it!!!!

Your work attire, sorry Millennials, shows respect for the people around you. You come in in flip flops and shorts and you're not respecting your job. You are not conveying seriousness.

If I'm a techie and want to stay a Techie First Class, then I dress down and look like Maynard Ferguson from Dobie Gillis. But if I want to run the whole enchilada someday, I dress like it and act like it.

Success is a holistic concept. Everything you say. Everything you do. Everyway in which you present yourself signals your commitment to success. Period.

And get off this guy's lawn!

But seriously, I don't think you understood Keefe's posts at all.

[dgies9156]

And get off this guy's lawn!

But seriously, I don't think you understood Keefe's posts at all.

I did. I do a lot of work in California and the PNW and I've very much seen what Keefe is talking about. But what I tried to say was that if you want to rot in a techie Jungle, then OK, dress like you are going to the beach. But even out west, if you want to grow beyond a specialist or low level management, I don't think ultra casual flies.

I just don't think you can dress casual and grow to an executive suite. Admittedly Milwaukee and Chicago is much more button-down than Seattle.

[WarriorFan]

This is a great thread and is exactly why I enjoy working outside the US, in developing countries.  I have had the pleasure in my management career of:
- buying deodorant for a young lady in the office and explaining how it's used
- moving a guy's desk because the others complained about how much he farted
- detected an undiagnosed diabetic (and probably saved his life - according to him) by counseling him about bad breath and then finding his other issues were straight from the diabetes diagnosis tree
- detecting a severe dyslexic and getting him into remedial lessons for reading which enabled him to move from a technical job all they way into management where he belonged based on his intellect and capability
- handing a guy his bonus check and telling him that 50% of it needed to go to his wardrobe or his career would be limited because he came to work looking like a slob
... all without ever needing to bother with HR.  All quick, immediate solutions and all well received because they were delivered privately and in the right way.  I could never work in the hyper political and litigious USA office environment... ugh.