Professional attire

[mu03eng]

I'm starting a thread that may go down some awful paths but it'd be nice to get some feedback from the many MU professionals out there.

Let me preface this with saying I recognize how much harder it is to navigate professional attire for women than men....men essentially have 4 uniform choices polo or button down, dress pants or jeans....with some tech folks going shorts I suppose.

I have someone working for me that I've received complaints from a few coworkers(all female) that this individual(female) wears leggings with nothing that fully covers the pelvic area and that they are inappropriate. First, I don't think this employee is wearing anything I haven't seen my wife or a million other women wearing over the last couple of years out in public. The question is, is it appropriate for the employee to wear it at work?

The attire is basic black leggings with a top of some sort that comes down to the hip typically. Again, I think society has completely accepted it in the general public but should it be acceptable with the work place(Fortune 100 company in this case)? I don't like dress codes generally, but when you get some complaints, they need to be addressed one way or the other. I lean toward, no issue, but curious what others have seen or experienced.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

I'm starting a thread that may go down some awful paths but it'd be nice to get some feedback from the many MU professionals out there.

Let me preface this with saying I recognize how much harder it is to navigate professional attire for women than men....men essentially have 4 uniform choices polo or button down, dress pants or jeans....with some tech folks going shorts I suppose.

I have someone working for me that I've received complaints from a few coworkers(all female) that this individual(female) wears leggings with nothing that fully covers the pelvic area and that they are inappropriate. First, I don't think this employee is wearing anything I haven't seen my wife or a million other women wearing over the last couple of years out in public. The question is, is it appropriate for the employee to wear it at work?

The attire is basic black leggings with a top of some sort that comes down to the hip typically. Again, I think society has completely accepted it in the general public but should it be acceptable with the work place(Fortune 100 company in this case)? I don't like dress codes generally, but when you get some complaints, they need to be addressed one way or the other. I lean toward, no issue, but curious what others have seen or experienced.

That's a tricky place to be in for you, however if you're working at a Fortune 100 company, it seems there should be a specific policy to reference or an HR department to offer guidance.

If I were the woman on your team, I'd not be too pleased that a Marquette Basketball Forum post informed your consideration of the issue.

[mu03eng]

That's a tricky place to be in for you, however if you're working at a Fortune 100 company, it seems there should be a specific policy to reference or an HR department to offer guidance.

If I were the woman on your team, I'd not be too pleased that a Marquette Basketball Forum post informed your consideration of the issue.

Doesn't inform my decision.....already handed off to HR, more of a curiosity with the audience then any decision I need to make.

[MerrittsMustache]

Have you contacted HR about this issue? That should be your first stop. There should be an HR handbook that details the dress code. Looks like you did that.

Did you ask the women who complained WHY they feel that it is inappropriate? Did they feel it was too revealing or did they feel it was too casual?

From my own experience, I'd say that it depends on your work environment. If employees wear jeans and/or untucked shirts, leggings are probably acceptable. If employees wear suits, obviously not. Assuming your company is somewhere in between like mine is (dress pants, no tie for men) then leggings are simply not acceptable.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

Doesn't inform my decision.....already handed off to HR, more of a curiosity with the audience then any decision I need to make.

Got it - my misunderstanding.

[mu03eng]

Did you ask the women who complained WHY they feel that it is inappropriate? Did they feel it was too revealing or did they feel it was too casual?

From my own experience, I'd say that it depends on your work environment. If employees wear jeans and/or untucked shirts, leggings are probably acceptable. If employees wear suits, obviously not. Assuming your company is somewhere in between like mine is (dress pants, no tie for men) then leggings are simply not acceptable.

The folks who complained said it was a coverage and a casual issue so no winning there.

The issue we have at our company and why I'm curious what other people experience is we can run the gambit of attire. We have 3000 people in the fortress I sit in with a huge range of functions from sales to coding to executive(including CEO) teams. I could walk down the hall to the cafeteria and see someone in a suit walking behind someone in shorts and a t-shirt (was even more pronounced when we had union manufacturing in the building). We have folks that are in customer facing 100% of the time and folks that don't see natural light 10 hours a day. We also have generational divides as we employee something like 400 interns in the summer and 150 year round all the way up to the exec leaders who are all in their late 50s and 60s.

[brandx]

Have you contacted HR about this issue? That should be your first stop. There should be an HR handbook that details the dress code. Looks like you did that.

Did you ask the women who complained WHY they feel that it is inappropriate? Did they feel it was too revealing or did they feel it was too casual?

From my own experience, I'd say that it depends on your work environment. If employees wear jeans and/or untucked shirts, leggings are probably acceptable. If employees wear suits, obviously not. Assuming your company is somewhere in between like mine is (dress pants, no tie for men) then leggings are simply not acceptable.

Agree.

For most people, general attire guidelines work just fine. But there are always those that want to push the envelope. I think that is an HR issue rather than something that Eng should have to deal with.

It may be a good idea for him to have a conversation with this person (depending on her personality) about what she is wearing and the complaints against her, but if this is a person who is already trying to move the boundaries, that could also lead to male / female complications (a man telling a women what is appropriate for her to wear), so it is much better to turn it over to HR.

[GGGG]

If these are her co-workers, I wouldn't even listen to their complaints.  My response would be "I think what she is wearing is appropriate" if that's indeed how you feel about it. 

If this were a work related issue than I have no problem with it.  But a dress code issue?  Blah.  Tell them to get to work and forget about it.

[MerrittsMustache]

The folks who complained said it was a coverage and a casual issue so no winning there.

I assume that HR will deal with this but if it's left up to you, I'd go with the "too casual" angle. Leave "too revealing" out of the equation, if possible. Also, bring a female employee into the room with you when having the conversation, ideally from HR or just a higher-up with whom you have a good working relationship. These situations are uncomfortable and you don't want to things to veer down a messy road.

I dealt with a situation a couple summers ago where an employee's clothes were a little too snug and revealing and we got some complaints. The HR Director (female) and I had a brief conversation with her in which she began bawling because she had gained 20 pounds over the winter but couldn't afford to buy all new clothes. Man, was I glad that wasn't a one-on-one conversation!

[mu03eng]

If these are her co-workers, I wouldn't even listen to their complaints.  My response would be "I think what she is wearing is appropriate" if that's indeed how you feel about it. 

If this were a work related issue than I have no problem with it.  But a dress code issue?  Blah.  Tell them to get to work and forget about it.

Yeah I turned it all over to HR cause it's just not worth trying to get involved at all(besides what the hell else is HR good for).

Chain of command complicates it all as well as only one of the complainers report to me, the rest report to someone else so my ability to tell people to go pound sound is limited. 

Let me say this, at the end of the day, I'm super glad I'm not a woman who has to play the corporate attire game.

[tower912]

First, whoever convinced women that yoga pants were appropriate for every day attire should be canonized.

Next, it basically comes down to the workplace and the HR rules.  People are always going to push the envelope, so whatever is decided needs to be enforced.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Isn't there a designated Scooper to send in to Eng03 to verify the leggings pelvic coverage.......?

[Benny B]

Isn't there a designated Scooper to send in to Eng03 to verify the leggings pelvic coverage.......?

In that regard, I'm surprised we've gone this long without a "pictures or nothing" post from Keefe or 4ever.

Does anyone here know what HR generalists make with just a couple years of experience?  Six-fu@king-figures.  These (mostly) ladies are well-compensated because they are trained to deal with these issues in a professional and - more importantly - defensible manner.  But when the 5-o'clock whistle blows, nobody parties harder than HR.  Point is, the issue of how women dress in the workplace is not one that any of us should tackle or even entertain unless specifically trained to do so.  If you have employees who report to you that bring up complaints, the best thing to do is to defer. D-E-F-E-R, DEFER, period.  Whether that involves a "I'll document your complaint and turn it over to HR" or the popular "this is above my paygrade" or a flat out "not my problem, take it up with HR," make it very clear that you ARE NOT the arbiter of such matters (even if you are, sometimes), and let the folks in HR deal with it.

That said, not everyone has the benefit of a competent HR dept.  It's difficult to be a manager, and this is a great example of why; you can't simply take a utilitarian approach and you can't do nothing... so you have to do a little politicking and relationship building (as MM alluded to) behind the scenes so that everyone feels like the issue has been addressed without anyone feeling like they were singled out.  What it boils down to is every workplace is different; there is no universal solution, and every manager has to assess their own personnel and culture in order to make a decision.  So I defer back to you, Eng on what you believe is the most defensible approach. 

In other words, if you need to tell someone to cover their six, make sure you're covering your own.

[mu03eng]

In that regard, I'm surprised we've gone this long without a "pictures or nothing" post from Keefe or 4ever.

Does anyone here know what HR generalists make with just a couple years of experience?  Six-fu@king-figures.  These (mostly) ladies are well-compensated because they are trained to deal with these issues in a professional and - more importantly - defensible manner.  But when the 5-o'clock whistle blows, nobody parties harder than HR.  Point is, the issue of how women dress in the workplace is not one that any of us should tackle or even entertain unless specifically trained to do so.  If you have employees who report to you that bring up complaints, the best thing to do is to defer. D-E-F-E-R, DEFER, period.  Whether that involves a "I'll document your complaint and turn it over to HR" or the popular "this is above my paygrade" or a flat out "not my problem, take it up with HR," make it very clear that you ARE NOT the arbiter of such matters (even if you are, sometimes), and let the folks in HR deal with it.

That said, not everyone has the benefit of a competent HR dept.  It's difficult to be a manager, and this is a great example of why; you can't simply take a utilitarian approach and you can't do nothing... so you have to do a little politicking and relationship building (as MM alluded to) behind the scenes so that everyone feels like the issue has been addressed without anyone feeling like they were singled out.  What it boils down to is every workplace is different; there is no universal solution, and every manager has to assess their own personnel and culture in order to make a decision.  So I defer back to you, Eng on what you believe is the most defensible approach. 

In other words, if you need to tell someone to cover their six, make sure you're covering your own.

A) are we sure Keefe isn't dead, I rewrote the original post about 6 different times with him and 4ever in mind to at least it make it harder for them to go off the reservation

B) Your approach is 100% my method of operation when it comes to this stuff and it really annoys me. Everything with being a people manager is almost certainly a trap and almost never ends well for the manager. Only reason I take these types of jobs is it's the easiest way to set strategy and minimize the executional bull$hit.

C) HR salaries are what they are because the fox is guarding the hen house. Want to know the best compensated, filthiest, most inappropriate person in your organization...find your HR rep.

D)Deflecting to your HR rep has it's own hazards....no issue is ever minefield free.

How did we get here as a society? 

[Benny B]

A) are we sure Keefe isn't dead, I rewrote the original post about 6 different times with him and 4ever in mind to at least it make it harder for them to go off the reservation

B) Your approach is 100% my method of operation when it comes to this stuff and it really annoys me. Everything with being a people manager is almost certainly a trap and almost never ends well for the manager. Only reason I take these types of jobs is it's the easiest way to set strategy and minimize the executional bull$hit.

C) HR salaries are what they are because the fox is guarding the hen house. Want to know the best compensated, filthiest, most inappropriate person in your organization...find your HR rep.

D)Deflecting to your HR rep has it's own hazards....no issue is ever minefield free.

How did we get here as a society? 

I blame the lawyers.  HR reps would probably be a close second, though I don't agree with the assertion of the fox guarding the henhouse is truly the issue there... they are standing guard, but not with nefarious intentions.  Keep in mind that these HR folks are regularly the difference between a $10,000 severance package and a $10,000,000 discrimination suit.  When you consider the potential cost of not having an HR team that's good at what they do, HR is more important to the company's bottom line than the sales department on a $4$ basis.

And I agree... I absolutely deplore the fact that my ability to manage through personal interaction is oft complicated by the legal ramifications of showing a little empathy from time to time.

[jesmu84]

In that regard, I'm surprised we've gone this long without a "pictures or nothing" post from Keefe or 4ever.

Does anyone here know what HR generalists make with just a couple years of experience?  Six-fu@king-figures.  These (mostly) ladies are well-compensated because they are trained to deal with these issues in a professional and - more importantly - defensible manner.  But when the 5-o'clock whistle blows, nobody parties harder than HR.  Point is, the issue of how women dress in the workplace is not one that any of us should tackle or even entertain unless specifically trained to do so.  If you have employees who report to you that bring up complaints, the best thing to do is to defer. D-E-F-E-R, DEFER, period.  Whether that involves a "I'll document your complaint and turn it over to HR" or the popular "this is above my paygrade" or a flat out "not my problem, take it up with HR," make it very clear that you ARE NOT the arbiter of such matters (even if you are, sometimes), and let the folks in HR deal with it.

That said, not everyone has the benefit of a competent HR dept.  It's difficult to be a manager, and this is a great example of why; you can't simply take a utilitarian approach and you can't do nothing... so you have to do a little politicking and relationship building (as MM alluded to) behind the scenes so that everyone feels like the issue has been addressed without anyone feeling like they were singled out.  What it boils down to is every workplace is different; there is no universal solution, and every manager has to assess their own personnel and culture in order to make a decision.  So I defer back to you, Eng on what you believe is the most defensible approach. 

In other words, if you need to tell someone to cover their six, make sure you're covering your own.

I took 2 things from this:

1. All of the HR people I've ever worked with are incredibly incompetent and incredibly overpaid

2. (Some/most?) women in the workplace make it a hellacious atmosphere. Cliques, talking behind others' backs, ratting people out, gossiping, etc. All of those things are 10x worse when women outnumber men in any job I've ever had.

Yes. I am aware that both of the above are broad-strokes statements.

[StillAWarrior]

I blame the lawyers. HR reps would probably be a close second, though I don't agree with the assertion of the fox guarding the henhouse is truly the issue there... they are standing guard, but not with nefarious intentions.  Keep in mind that these HR folks are regularly the difference between a $10,000 severance package and a $10,000,000 discrimination suit.  When you consider the potential cost of not having an HR team that's good at what they do, HR is more important to the company's bottom line than the sales department on a $4$ basis.

And I agree... I absolutely deplore the fact that my ability to manage through personal interaction is oft complicated by the legal ramifications of showing a little empathy from time to time.

I'm one of those lawyers who represents employers and makes things so difficult for you.  If I've learned one thing in 20 years of doing this, it's that no good deed goes unpunished.  Sadly -- and I really mean that...it's very sad -- showing a little empathy can be extraordinarily expensive.  Often, it works out great.  But honestly, the majority of lawsuits I've defended over the years can be traced back to somebody trying to do someone a favor and having it come back to bite them in the ass.

/Disclaimer:  doing this for 20 years has made me a cynical SOB as it relates to employees.  People only call me about the bad ones.

[brandx]

2. (Some/most?) women in the workplace make it a hellacious atmosphere. Cliques, talking behind others' backs, ratting people out, gossiping, etc. All of those things are 10x worse when women outnumber men in any job I've ever had.

It probably is 10x worse for women.

For a man working with a majority of women (it was about 75% women in my last job), it was much easier than working with the macho crap when it is all or mostly all male.

Surprisingly, in my last job, I was also involved in more conversations regarding some aspect of sex more often than when I worked in mostly male workplaces.

[jesmu84]

It probably is 10x worse for women.

For a man working with a majority of women (it was about 75% women in my last job), it was much easier than working with the macho crap when it is all or mostly all male.

Surprisingly, in my last job, I was also involved in more conversations regarding some aspect of sex more often than when I worked in mostly male workplaces.

That's probably true.

Guess I'd prefer my workplace with a little vulgarity vs having to watch my back at all times and having to play politics so often

[keefe]

I have someone working for me... (who) wears leggings with nothing that fully covers the pelvic area

Can you get some recce photos of this in order for us to conduct proper BDA?

[muwarrior69]

We need input from our resident expert, Chick.

[jsglow]

She's typing feverishly on her laptop right now.  Not sure the thread.

 

[warriorchick]

Wow fellas, you sure have given me a lot to work with here.  Let me start by telling you my background regarding this subject.  I have been a woman for most of my life.  I have been in the professional workforce for more than 30 years.  I have worked in environments from super stuffy (Big 8 accounting firm in the '80's) to super casual (HR person wearing Daisy Dukes in the summer).  I have had HR departments report to me, including one that had 5000 employees in all 50 states and had five different unions, so I have seen nearly every HR issue imaginable.

I'm starting a thread that may go down some awful paths but it'd be nice to get some feedback from the many MU professionals out there.

Let me preface this with saying I recognize how much harder it is to navigate professional attire for women than men....men essentially have 4 uniform choices polo or button down, dress pants or jeans....with some tech folks going shorts I suppose.

I have someone working for me that I've received complaints from a few coworkers(all female) that this individual(female) wears leggings with nothing that fully covers the pelvic area and that they are inappropriate. First, I don't think this employee is wearing anything I haven't seen my wife or a million other women wearing over the last couple of years out in public. The question is, is it appropriate for the employee to wear it at work?

The attire is basic black leggings with a top of some sort that comes down to the hip typically. Again, I think society has completely accepted it in the general public but should it be acceptable with the work place(Fortune 100 company in this case)? I don't like dress codes generally, but when you get some complaints, they need to be addressed one way or the other. I lean toward, no issue, but curious what others have seen or experienced.

First of all, leggings were never designed to have the torso portion showing when being worn.  They are designed to be paired with either a long shirt or sweater, a skirt, or even a long jacket if you keep it buttoned.  If your heinie or hooha are exposed, you are not wearing them appropriately.  They are not pants.  They are basically heavy-gauge tights without feet.

Are they professional?  No outfit that gives you cameltoe or clings to your buttcheeks is professional.  That being said, any company that does not have a dress code expressly forbidding leggings will have a hard time telling that person she cannot wear them.  Of course, if this woman is generally viewed in the office as unprofessional in her dress, it could potentially affect her career.  Her only saving grace might be if she is an engineer, because everyone knows that engineers don't know how to dress themselves.

If I were the head of that HR department and decided to deal with it, I would take her aside and simply let her know that there have been some complaints from female co-workers about her mode of dress, and that I wanted her to be aware of it for her own benefit.  I would emphasize that there was nothing specific in the dress code that prevents her from wearing leggings with a short top, but there are folks in the office (myself included) that believe that it is not a professional look.  I would have the same conversation with a guy who wore camouflage cargo shorts to work.

[warriorchick]

Does anyone here know what HR generalists make with just a couple years of experience?  Six-fu@king-figures.  T

Um, yeah, can you point me to some actual statistics that say that?  Because most HR folks I know (including the ones I have hired) that make that kind of dough have more like a couple of decades of experience, have supervisory and policy-making responsibilities,  and often have a graduate degree.

An HR generalist with a couple of years of experience? Closer to $40-$45K.

[4everwarriors]

First, whoever convinced women that yoga pants were appropriate for every day attire should be canonized.

Next, it basically comes down to the workplace and the HR rules.  People are always going to push the envelope, so whatever is decided needs to be enforced.

I love yoga pants, on da right broad, hey?