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Author Topic: MU picked for 7th in Big East  (Read 27384 times)

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #50 on: October 11, 2016, 02:31:17 PM »
Out of necessity, Haanif was playing out of position last year at PG.  There's a big reason for leading the team in turnovers.

Oh I'm well aware, he had some head scratching turnovers and was fairly predictable on offense. I think he's much improved this season but I really like the other players we have too.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #51 on: October 11, 2016, 02:34:34 PM »
Due to his size, Luke may well have a bigger impact, but Haanif is clearly MU's best player to me.  Haanif will be making that freshman to sophomore jump and won't have to worry about playing PG, two theings that will increase his effectiveness.  Rowsey and Reinhardt both need to work on their defense.

I think you demonstrate an issue all fans have with picking valuable players. Luke is boring. He doesn't make mind blowing plays. Everything he does looks relatively easy because of his size. But he is our best player and I will still hold that he was our best player last season. Value add agrees with me.
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Dawson Rental

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2016, 02:37:11 PM »
I just don't get the Georgetown love. I think they'll be worse than last year. Pryor is an average efficiency, super high usage player from a terrible team. I'm not convinced he can succeed at this level at all. Agau can play some defense, but he's not a game changer. Govan is good, but what about this team tells you they can overcome the loss of DSR, much less be better? What about JTIII indicates a reason for faith? They look like a 7th-9th place team. Only DePaul being terrible really separates them from the cellar.

I think that Georgetown has the most talented roster in the Big East.  Even with a history of underperformance that fact makes them a top five team in the Big East.  You don't even mention Isaac Copeland.  I'm not sure how you can forget a guy how had a line of 32 points and 9 rebounds against us last year.  Peak is almost as good.  Dickerson and Govan will be making that sophomore jump.  Pryor has created some buzz in Hoya land, so maybe all he needed to be more efficient was to be surrounded by some talent.  I'm not sure that Agau will be able to get much PT.  PG is their weak spot.  I don't know how they haven't shored that up more.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 02:45:43 PM by 4everCrean »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2016, 02:43:47 PM »
And the post I was responding to was about those players that could carry a team. If I'm framing a sentence using "warrior" referencing a player that can carry a team then that's what it means for the purpose of the conversation. If you feel there's a fundamental difference on what our definition of warrior means then it's not you disagreeing with my post on our team so much as the definition I used, in which case you should've made your own statement first framing the definition of what Warriors would mean. 

Regarding your second point, if I'm rating a player as a warrior because they can carry the team and play tough (something our teams have been severely lacking recently) then I stand buy there not being a proven individual on this team.

The difference between your knowledge of what they can be and mine of thinking they won't be is that mine is grounded in their lack of being warriors for their entire career. If JJJ or Wilson start playing unbelievably physical and take over games I'll say "wow these guys really developed into warriors" but I'll stand by my statement that as of this point in time there is no warrior on the team. Just like if Senior Sam essentially becomes Novak I'll say he "developed into a true warrior"

I'm sorry but your last statement is patently false. Grambling players don't deserve to walk around with swagger, Depaul players don't deserve to walk around with Swagger, heck I know at least a handful of people that went to good D3 and D2 schools electing to pay some money rather than take the full rides at crappy D1 schools. I'd say those guys who're paying, but winning, deserve more swagger than those who get the full ride but lose constantly.

Finally way to take an awesome statement playing into two of our mascots and blow it out of proportion.

(To the bolded) I did exactly that when you asked what I was disagreeing on.

The rest is more or less semantics.  We absolutely could have any number of "warriors" (by either of our definitions) on this team.  And telling anyone they can't "have swagger" because they haven't met some random standard that you have set for them is absolutely absurd.  "You're one of the top 1% in the world at what you do, but you aren't winning against the other top 1% you're competing with, so you should be hanging your head and considering yourself a failure rather than walking around with confidence!"  People who don't have to pay a penny for school because they are good at something that that school values should be walking around campus like the BMOC, because, well, the school has decided that they are the BMOC with a full ride scholarship.
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Dawson Rental

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2016, 02:44:57 PM »
I think you demonstrate an issue all fans have with picking valuable players. Luke is boring. He doesn't make mind blowing plays. Everything he does looks relatively easy because of his size. But he is our best player and I will still hold that he was our best player last season. Value add agrees with me.

Your post I responded to was about MU's "best" player, now you're talking about "valuable" players.  I think that Haanif is a better basketball player then Luke.  But he's not someone who can control under the boards like Luke can.  Those players are rare.  That's enough to make Luke more "valuable."  Which is why in my earlier post I led off with "Due to his size, Luke may well have a bigger impact."
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 02:47:46 PM by 4everCrean »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Babybluejeans

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2016, 02:56:54 PM »
We have lots of depth, lots of players who are basically interchangeable. But I don't see any stars, any real go to guys. Every successful MU team in my memory has had at least one (Vander, JFB, Crowder, DJO, Lazar, Wesley, Jerel, DJ, Steve, Travis, Dwyane). Hope to be proven wrong but I don't see one on this roster (at least not yet).

That's true about needing a go-to guy but there may be some confirmation bias here. Don't forget that in some cases we didn't know the go-to guys would actually be dependable enough to carry the team before the season started. I recall there were questions about whether Steve could be "the guy" rather than a role-player when we entered the BE (having D. James and Co. surely helped him in this way). Ditto Lazar after the Three Amigos left. And Crowder didn't emerge as the player he became as a senior until the season got underway; indeed, some of us thought DJO would be the go-to guy before the season started.

The point is: *we* may not see a go-to guy on the roster, but that doesn't mean he isn't there.

wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #56 on: October 11, 2016, 03:06:32 PM »
That's true about needing a go-to guy but there may be some confirmation bias here. Don't forget that in some cases we didn't know the go-to guys would actually be dependable enough to carry the team before the season started. I recall there were questions about whether Steve could be "the guy" rather than a role-player when we entered the BE (having D. James and Co. surely helped him in this way). Ditto Lazar after the Three Amigos left. And Crowder didn't emerge as the player he became as a senior until the season got underway; indeed, some of us thought DJO would be the go-to guy before the season started.

The point is: *we* may not see a go-to guy on the roster, but that doesn't mean he isn't there.

Bingo.
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HoopsterBC

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #57 on: October 11, 2016, 03:07:47 PM »
Bingo.

The most aggressive player that I saw from the scrimmage was Rowsey.  It might be him.

Galway Eagle

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2016, 03:08:49 PM »
(To the bolded) I did exactly that when you asked what I was disagreeing on.

The rest is more or less semantics.  We absolutely could have any number of "warriors" (by either of our definitions) on this team.  And telling anyone they can't "have swagger" because they haven't met some random standard that you have set for them is absolutely absurd.  "You're one of the top 1% in the world at what you do, but you aren't winning against the other top 1% you're competing with, so you should be hanging your head and considering yourself a failure rather than walking around with confidence!"  People who don't have to pay a penny for school because they are good at something that that school values should be walking around campus like the BMOC, because, well, the school has decided that they are the BMOC with a full ride scholarship.

Sorry man you just sound super stereotypical for our generation. Essentially here's what I read you saying: "Congrats you're above average at something, sure you're the worst of the best and in the midst of the worst stretch in 61 years of MU basketball but go ahead and walk around like you own the court because you got a scholarship." A little acceptance of reality to get these guys busting their ass would go a long way. And winning isn't a random standard I've set, it's the standard of a top collegiate basketball program.

32,735 collegiate players in america. the odds of playing is 17:1, when you factor in the guys that get injured, the super small kid, the too dumb for college, the guy who chooses another sport. There's actually a pretty good chance that if you're halfway decent you're going to find somewhere to play in college. I don't think it's unfair to say that of those 32,735 only the guys who're actually winning deserve to walk around with "swagger".
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bilsu

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #59 on: October 11, 2016, 03:13:54 PM »
I just don't get the Georgetown love. I think they'll be worse than last year. Pryor is an average efficiency, super high usage player from a terrible team. I'm not convinced he can succeed at this level at all. Agau can play some defense, but he's not a game changer. Govan is good, but what about this team tells you they can overcome the loss of DSR, much less be better? What about JTIII indicates a reason for faith? They look like a 7th-9th place team. Only DePaul being terrible really separates them from the cellar.
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wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #60 on: October 11, 2016, 03:19:30 PM »
Sorry man you just sound super stereotypical for our generation. Essentially here's what I read you saying: "Congrats you're above average at something, sure you're the worst of the best and in the midst of the worst stretch in 61 years of MU basketball but go ahead and walk around like you own the court because you got a scholarship." A little acceptance of reality to get these guys busting their ass would go a long way. And winning isn't a random standard I've set, it's the standard of a top collegiate basketball program.

32,735 collegiate players in america. the odds of playing is 17:1, when you factor in the guys that get injured, the super small kid, the too dumb for college, the guy who chooses another sport. There's actually a pretty good chance that if you're halfway decent you're going to find somewhere to play in college. I don't think it's unfair to say that of those 32,735 only the guys who're actually winning deserve to walk around with "swagger".

There are 347 division one basketball teams (forget, for the moment, that Ivy League schools, and maybe others, don't give out athletic scholarships, lowering that number).  There are 13 scholarships per division one basketball team.  Not sure how you get to 32,735 players, but my math comes out to a *bit* less than that (4,511).  Sure, if you want to cut out the people who can't cut it then yeah!  It's really easy to get to be a division 1 basketball player!  So easy to get there!  A lot of people are too small, too weak, can't shoot well enough, too dumb, too unathletic, or go another direction.  Eliminate those people and the competition is slim!  Lol.  Absurd.

4,511 people (less, really) are on athletic scholarships for men's division 1 basketball.  Out of 7.4 billion people in the world.  That's a pretty elite group.  You can try to diminish it by eliminating everyone who's not, but that's the exact point.  Not everyone can do it.  In fact, very, very few people can.

Getting a full ride for a college education is no small feat.  Diminish it all you want.  When you have to pay your kids' student loans you'll realize how big of a deal it is.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 03:26:02 PM by wadesworld »
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mu03eng

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #61 on: October 11, 2016, 03:34:10 PM »
I'm expecting Katin, Luke, JJJ and Rowsey to all be better than Hannif.  Maybe Duane too.  I'm also not expecting much from Hannif.  I feel like he's going to plateau.  Hope I am wrong.

Basis for this evaluation?
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Galway Eagle

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #62 on: October 11, 2016, 03:46:51 PM »
There are 347 division one basketball teams (forget, for the moment, that Ivy League schools, and maybe others, don't give out athletic scholarships, lowering that number).  There are 13 scholarships per division one basketball team.  Not sure how you get to 32,735 players, but my math comes out to a *bit* less than that (4,511).  Sure, if you want to cut out the people who can't cut it then yeah!  It's really easy to get to be a division 1 basketball player!  So easy to get there!  A lot of people are too small, too weak, can't shoot well enough, too dumb, too unathletic, or go another direction.  Eliminate those people and the competition is slim!  Lol.  Absurd.

4,511 people (less, really) are on athletic scholarships for men's division 1 basketball.  Out of 7.4 billion people in the world.  That's a pretty elite group.  You can try to diminish it by eliminating everyone who's not, but that's the exact point.  Not everyone can do it.  In fact, very, very few people can.

Getting a full ride for a college education is no small feat.  Diminish it all you want.  When you have to pay your kids' student loans you'll realize how big of a deal it is.

I said college basketball players, not D1, I don't believe that being on Grambling or even Depaul gives someone the right have more swag than the players at UW-SP or UW-WW, who are always winning their divisions, just because the crappy D1 players don't pay and the D3 guys do. You seem to have this fixation on the money aspect and once again I'm fixating on the fact that in order to get to walk with swagger you better damn well be performing on the court to earn it not just be good enough to get a scholarship and get your ass beat.

You can't go off of 7.4 billion people when less than half a billion actually play basketball, thats like saying everyone can be a rockstar, well yeah but not everyone plays an instrument.

I'm not sitting here saying it's not an elite group or that it's not impressive to play at the next level but not everyone earns the right to have "swagger". Example: I was a all conference lacrosse player but my HS team lost a lot, I don't have the right to brag about that thus my name is Bagpipingboxer not Bagpipinglax

Idk what you're talking about with my future kids' student loans as if I don't have them for myself or as if you're much older than me and have to pay them for your kids lol.

I don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I know you're stubborn enough from prior experience to make this go back and forth for another four pages so good day.
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tower912

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2016, 03:46:57 PM »
Why does this surprise anyone?     Please make a compelling case of how MU gets into the top 1/2 of the Big East based on the current roster and without assuming crippling injuries to the other teams.
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wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2016, 04:00:49 PM »
I said college basketball players, not D1, I don't believe that being on Grambling or even Depaul gives someone the right have more swag than the players at UW-SP or UW-WW, who are always winning their divisions, just because the crappy D1 players don't pay and the D3 guys do. You seem to have this fixation on the money aspect and once again I'm fixating on the fact that in order to get to walk with swagger you better damn well be performing on the court to earn it not just be good enough to get a scholarship and get your ass beat.

You can't go off of 7.4 billion people when less than half a billion actually play basketball, thats like saying everyone can be a rockstar, well yeah but not everyone plays an instrument.

I'm not sitting here saying it's not an elite group or that it's not impressive to play at the next level but not everyone earns the right to have "swagger". Example: I was a all conference lacrosse player but my HS team lost a lot, I don't have the right to brag about that thus my name is Bagpipingboxer not Bagpipinglax

Idk what you're talking about with my future kids' student loans as if I don't have them for myself or as if you're much older than me and have to pay them for your kids lol.

I don't want to derail this thread anymore, and I know you're stubborn enough from prior experience to make this go back and forth for another four pages so good day.

Lol.  This is hilarious.  You talk about shifting goal posts then go move goal posts from being a full scholarship basketball player (hence why I said from the beginning if you are good enough at something to get a full scholarship then you're pretty dang good at whatever that thing is) to being any basketball player in college.  "Mom, dad, guess what?!  My intramural basketball team won the co-ed C basketball league!  We killed it out there!"  If you're playing at UWW or UWO or UWSP you're paying for your academics.  I'll go ahead and say if those teams played in the BE and played MU's schedule they wouldn't be within 25 points of any opponent.  But hey, you played at UWO and won some games so go ahead and "have swagger!"

Someone who is given the opportunity to receive a free education (see: division 1 basketball players) because they are good at something has every right to be very confident in their abilities.  Full athletic scholarships are not participation trophies.  They don't hand them out to just any old player.

Any person can be a division one basketball player.  Anyone has the right to try to get there.  Only a very select few have the ability to do so.  This isn't even a debatable fact.

But yeah, I'm sure you do know what student loans look like.  Which is why full scholarships aren't some small deal.  You need to be good at something to get one.

Nobody's arguing that Marquette is where they need to be.  But to say a kid can't have confidence because he's not competing for a National title?  Laughable.

Can't believe someone like Ben Simmons would have the audacity to show such swagger on some of his dunks when he has earned no right to do so!  The guy's a big time loser.  Same with Henry Ellenson.  Big nobodies.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2016, 04:05:10 PM by wadesworld »
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Galway Eagle

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2016, 04:05:32 PM »
Lol.  This is hilarious.  You talk about shifting goal posts then go move goal posts from being a full scholarship basketball player (hence why I said from the beginning if you are good enough at something to get a full scholarship then you're pretty dang good at whatever that thing is) to being any basketball player in college.  "Mom, dad, guess what?!  My intramural basketball team won the co-ed C basketball league!  We killed it out there!"  If you're playing at UWW or UWO or UWSP you're paying for your academics.  I'll go ahead and say if those teams played in the BE and played MU's schedule they wouldn't be within 25 points of any opponent.  But hey, you played at UWO and won some games so go ahead and "have swagger!"

Someone who is given the opportunity to receive a free education (see: division 1 basketball players) because they are good at something has every right to be very confident in their abilities.  Full athletic scholarships are not participation trophies.  They don't hand them out to just any old player.

Any person can be a division one basketball player.  Anyone has the right to try to get there.  Only a very select few have the ability to do so.  This isn't even a debatable fact.

But yeah, I'm sure you do know what student loans look like.  Which is why full scholarships aren't some small deal.  You need to be good at something to get one.

Nobody's arguing that Marquette is where they need to be.  But to say a kid can't have confidence because he's not competing for a National title?  Laughable.

Happy you got the last words? Because

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wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2016, 04:13:34 PM »
Happy you got the last words? Because



Look out people, the boxer said good day, that means you must be quiet.
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hoyasincebirth

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2016, 04:17:40 PM »
I understand there is excitement in D.C. regarding Pryor, Akau, and an improved Govan but all the potential in the world can't overcome the horrendous coaching they have in place. Yet every October for the past half decade, the Hoyas are considered a dangerous team.

Yeah we've sucked in the tournament but Hoyas Are just 4 years removed from winning the conference and Just 2 years removed from a second place finish in the conference. Let's not act like we're DePaul.

Marcus92

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2016, 04:17:50 PM »
Why does this surprise anyone?     Please make a compelling case of how MU gets into the top 1/2 of the Big East based on the current roster and without assuming crippling injuries to the other teams.

The prediction doesn't surprise me. I think this team has a good chance to surprise doubters on the court.

After Nova and Xavier, there's very little separation between the next 6 teams in the Big East. We finished just 1 game behind Creighton, 2 behind Providence (who might be in for a big fall) and Butler (who also lost some big contributors and team leaders).

Marquette, on the other hand, returns 4/5 of the starting lineup and the entire bench. Plus: transfers Rowsey (who's practiced with the team for an entire year) and Reinhardt. Plus: a strong freshman class. We've added depth and talent across the roster.

Essentially, this Marquette team is every bit as proven on the court as Creighton, Georgetown or Butler.

But it doesn't really matter how compelling a case that is. Or who predicts which team for which spot in the standings. Basketball is won on the court, not in the court of public opinion.

Can't wait for the season to start.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #69 on: October 11, 2016, 04:19:09 PM »
Look out people, the boxer said good day, that means you must be quiet.

 ::) classic Foley.
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mu03eng

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #70 on: October 11, 2016, 04:25:58 PM »
The prediction doesn't surprise me. I think this team has a good chance to surprise doubters on the court.

After Nova and Xavier, there's very little separation between the next 6 teams in the Big East. We finished just 1 game behind Creighton, 2 behind Providence (who might be in for a big fall) and Butler (who also lost some big contributors and team leaders).

Marquette, on the other hand, returns 4/5 of the starting lineup and the entire bench. Plus: transfers Rowsey (who's practiced with the team for an entire year) and Reinhardt. Plus: a strong freshman class. We've added depth and talent across the roster.

Essentially, this Marquette team is every bit as proven on the court as Creighton, Georgetown or Butler.

But it doesn't really matter how compelling a case that is. Or who predicts which team for which spot in the standings. Basketball is won on the court, not in the court of public opinion.

Can't wait for the season to start.

Seems compelling to me
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wadesworld

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #71 on: October 11, 2016, 04:31:11 PM »
::) classic Foley.

I thought you said good day?

PS Once again, that's not a well kept secret.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #72 on: October 11, 2016, 05:00:28 PM »
That's true about needing a go-to guy but there may be some confirmation bias here. Don't forget that in some cases we didn't know the go-to guys would actually be dependable enough to carry the team before the season started. I recall there were questions about whether Steve could be "the guy" rather than a role-player when we entered the BE (having D. James and Co. surely helped him in this way). Ditto Lazar after the Three Amigos left. And Crowder didn't emerge as the player he became as a senior until the season got underway; indeed, some of us thought DJO would be the go-to guy before the season started.

The point is: *we* may not see a go-to guy on the roster, but that doesn't mean he isn't there.

I agree somewhat. We didn't know for sure if Steve could be "the man" and maybe you could say the same about Lazar and Jae. But we knew if we were going to be any good Lazar and Steve HAD to be the man. Ditto for Jae if we were going to be great.

I'm not even sure this year which of 8 or 9 guys needs to be "the man".

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #73 on: October 11, 2016, 05:12:52 PM »
Why does this surprise anyone?     Please make a compelling case of how MU gets into the top 1/2 of the Big East based on the current roster and without assuming crippling injuries to the other teams.

Not surprised at all. On paper, it's the exact right pick. Fortunately, basketball isn't played on paper.
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axaguy

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Re: MU picked for 7th in Big East
« Reply #74 on: October 11, 2016, 05:14:06 PM »
Lots of needless energy wasted on trying to refute a 7th place, preseason prediction in a sport which crowns an overall champion at it's year end, anyway.  Who cares where we are "picked?" All I care about is where we finish after we play........ Results based on performance, not projection.

But, how can anyone expect any lofty predictions anyway. We had a so-so 20 win season with an NBA first rounder who was one and done with us and as we were not invited to any post season dance. Especially the big one, NCAA. Remaining guys don't exactly strike fear into others in the league at this moment to be considered any higher. I think a degree of "homerism" afflicts those of us with lofty thoughts......

Luke is 6' 11", that is all.... If he is our "MVP" we are in a bit of trouble, really. He may be a nice enough guy but is slow, unathletic, has fair hands, poor free throw shooting, is foul prone and isn't really smooth around the basket. Forget about holding his own vs other bigs who are more aggressive. He AND Henry didn't dominate nearly enough when they were on the floor together last year.....really. Why do you think Indiana let him escape in the first place?????

The other guys have a lot to prove this year before we can anoint them improved from last year..... Have to find shooters who can shoot/score. A true point guard to run and control the offense and get us down the court, etc.......... Defense that can create stops....blah, blah, blah...... Much said before by lots of others....

Just my thoughts but let's just start playing and see where we are and where we go. I hope to be better in March than November if we are making progress here............

 

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