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Author Topic: Big Loss for Villanova  (Read 14960 times)

Nukem2

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #50 on: September 26, 2016, 09:05:59 AM »
More hyperbole.

They want to dictate eligibility for PR reasons. Pure and simple.
I doubt that.

MU82

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #51 on: September 26, 2016, 09:11:03 AM »
The only thing a player gets in exchange for their services is an education.

I would argue this is not true for the top players, most of whom regard an education as a secondary reason for going to college.

Here's what Henry Ellenson received in exchange for his services:

1. Exposure - The media was calling him a top NBA prospect before he ever stepped on campus, and such talk only intensified during his brief time in blue and gold. In addition to being exposed to the public and the media, he was exposed to scouts, dozens of them, game after game after game.

2. Top-tier Competition - Henry got to play against great teams, including twice against the eventual national champions, and great players, including the No. 1 pick in the draft. Even games against less-talented teams and individuals game him opportunities to face all kinds of opponents and defenses.

3. Coaching - It's too early to say how good Wojo and his staff are at player development. I believe there are many positive signs, but others might argue differently. Regardless of where one falls on that, however, it would be hard to argue that daily work with experienced coaches did not help Henry improve as a basketball player.

4. Maturity - It's unlikely that an athlete spends a year at an academic institution and as part of a team without growing up some as an individual.

5. Camaraderie - Henry got to play alongside his brother and also seemed to very much enjoy his other teammates.

6. Education - I don't know what kind of student Henry was. If he took it seriously, he definitely benefited from intellectual stimulation. Even those that mostly blow it off get some schooling by "osmosis." One could argue quite convincingly that the main education top athletes get at college has little (or nothing) to do with books or lectures or tests; it is the education associated with "life lessons."

I'm not necessarily saying Education was last on Henry's list (and on the list of many other star players), but I definitely don't think it was first - and absolutely not "the only thing a player gets in exchange for their services."

For many of these kids, the education part of it is a sham. The schools use the athletes, and the athletes use the schools. Derrick Rose attended college for one reason and one reason only - because NBA rules mandated it (and he didn't want to go play in China or someplace for a year). The same is true of many others, possibly including Henry.
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mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #52 on: September 26, 2016, 09:39:10 AM »
The only thing a player gets in exchange for their services is an education. A player cannot receive an education if s/he  isn't academically ready to benefit from it. If schools are allowed to "admit players who can't read" than the university is taking advantage of the players and paying them nothing for their services. That cannot be allowed.

I don't care if the NCAA does it for PR. They still keep schools from taking advantage of these students. NCAA managing eligibility is a necessity. Does it lead to some dumb decisions? Yes. Does that mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

If I pay an NFL player and he doesn't cash his game checks or know how a bank works, is that on the NFL player or the team?

Plus as MU82 points out, there are a lot of other benefits players get even if they don't get an education.
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mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #53 on: September 26, 2016, 09:44:21 AM »
I would argue this is not true for the top players, most of whom regard an education as a secondary reason for going to college.

Here's what Henry Ellenson received in exchange for his services:

1. Exposure - The media was calling him a top NBA prospect before he ever stepped on campus, and such talk only intensified during his brief time in blue and gold. In addition to being exposed to the public and the media, he was exposed to scouts, dozens of them, game after game after game.

2. Top-tier Competition - Henry got to play against great teams, including twice against the eventual national champions, and great players, including the No. 1 pick in the draft. Even games against less-talented teams and individuals game him opportunities to face all kinds of opponents and defenses.

3. Coaching - It's too early to say how good Wojo and his staff are at player development. I believe there are many positive signs, but others might argue differently. Regardless of where one falls on that, however, it would be hard to argue that daily work with experienced coaches did not help Henry improve as a basketball player.

4. Maturity - It's unlikely that an athlete spends a year at an academic institution and as part of a team without growing up some as an individual.

5. Camaraderie - Henry got to play alongside his brother and also seemed to very much enjoy his other teammates.

6. Education - I don't know what kind of student Henry was. If he took it seriously, he definitely benefited from intellectual stimulation. Even those that mostly blow it off get some schooling by "osmosis." One could argue quite convincingly that the main education top athletes get at college has little (or nothing) to do with books or lectures or tests; it is the education associated with "life lessons."

I'm not necessarily saying Education was last on Henry's list (and on the list of many other star players), but I definitely don't think it was first - and absolutely not "the only thing a player gets in exchange for their services."

For many of these kids, the education part of it is a sham. The schools use the athletes, and the athletes use the schools. Derrick Rose attended college for one reason and one reason only - because NBA rules mandated it (and he didn't want to go play in China or someplace for a year). The same is true of many others, possibly including Henry.

I'd also add free food, clothing, lodging, and a lot of experiences (Italy, NYC, etc)
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forgetful

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #54 on: September 26, 2016, 09:51:24 AM »
More hyperbole.

They want to dictate eligibility for PR reasons. Pure and simple.

I do not think that word means what you think it means.

And the NCAA does it only for PR??? 

That is inane.  Your bias against the NCAA as some secret organization bent on taking advantage of athletes is showing. 

The one good thing the NCAA does is ensure athletes are prepared for a college education and are not purely being exploited as an athlete while stashed in some crap hole of a made up degree.

mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #55 on: September 26, 2016, 09:55:24 AM »
I do not think that word means what you think it means.

And the NCAA does it only for PR??? 

That is inane.  Your bias against the NCAA as some secret organization bent on taking advantage of athletes is showing. 

The one good thing the NCAA does is ensure athletes are prepared for a college education and are not purely being exploited as an athlete while stashed in some crap hole of a made up degree.

Tell me again how that worked out for all those kids at North Carolina?
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Nukem2

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #56 on: September 26, 2016, 10:10:50 AM »
Tell me again how that worked out for all those kids at North Carolina?
Hmmm .... they seemed to do ok?

mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #57 on: September 26, 2016, 10:12:33 AM »
Hmmm .... they seemed to do ok?

and did they they get a legitimate education?
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2016, 10:17:34 AM »
If I pay an NFL player and he doesn't cash his game checks or know how a bank works, is that on the NFL player or the team?

Plus as MU82 points out, there are a lot of other benefits players get even if they don't get an education.

You're comparing the wrong things. An NFL player not cashing checks still gets paid. That would be like a former college athlete getting an education but choosing not to use it and work at McDonald's instead. This is closer to an NFL player getting paid in monopoly money, something useless and without value to them.

I do agree about the other benefits that MU82 mentioned, that should absolutely be counted. However, without the education, the other benefits are not enough to justify fair compensation.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2016, 10:22:27 AM »
Tell me again how that worked out for all those kids at North Carolina?

Exactly why the NCAA needs to manage academics. Schools can't be trusted to do it themselves. Now the NCAA is dragging it's heels and in all likelihood will pass the buck in order to protect unc. NCAA is far from perfect. But the answer is to improve the NCAA, not to blow it up.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2016, 10:24:18 AM »
The only thing a player gets in exchange for their services is an education. A player cannot receive an education if s/he  isn't academically ready to benefit from it. If schools are allowed to "admit players who can't read" than the university is taking advantage of the players and paying them nothing for their services. That cannot be allowed.

I don't care if the NCAA does it for PR. They still keep schools from taking advantage of these students. NCAA managing eligibility is a necessity. Does it lead to some dumb decisions? Yes. Does that mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

18 year old young men who can't read are basically unemployable. Saying a school who gives them room, board, coaching, medical, exposure and an environment where they can mature, hone their game, meet successful alums, etc. is taking advantage of them is a bit of a stretch. I'd bet most 18 year olds who can't read would agree.

mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2016, 10:31:23 AM »
You're comparing the wrong things. An NFL player not cashing checks still gets paid. That would be like a former college athlete getting an education but choosing not to use it and work at McDonald's instead. This is closer to an NFL player getting paid in monopoly money, something useless and without value to them.

I do agree about the other benefits that MU82 mentioned, that should absolutely be counted. However, without the education, the other benefits are not enough to justify fair compensation.

I disagree with your disagreement. It's not as if the academic institutions wouldn't let them attend class, they would have full access to all of the services and classes that all student athletes are afforded. If they are not able or unwilling to put themselves in a position to take advantage of that opportunity that's on society, not the academic institution which is providing them the opportunity in exchange for the play on the field.
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

Herman Cain

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #62 on: September 26, 2016, 10:34:55 AM »
and did they they get a legitimate education?
Most did.
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CTWarrior

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #63 on: September 26, 2016, 10:48:57 AM »
I disagree with your disagreement. It's not as if the academic institutions wouldn't let them attend class, they would have full access to all of the services and classes that all student athletes are afforded. If they are not able or unwilling to put themselves in a position to take advantage of that opportunity that's on society, not the academic institution which is providing them the opportunity in exchange for the play on the field.

UNC did prohibit some athletes from attending real classes and forced them to take the African Studies program.  At least that is what some former players are alleging.
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mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #64 on: September 26, 2016, 10:53:03 AM »
Most did.

How do you define that....players were directed to classes where there were no expectations for course work or tests and seemingly no requirement to attend class....what did they learn in those classes?
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forgetful

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #65 on: September 26, 2016, 10:59:36 AM »
Exactly why the NCAA needs to manage academics. Schools can't be trusted to do it themselves. Now the NCAA is dragging it's heels and in all likelihood will pass the buck in order to protect unc. NCAA is far from perfect. But the answer is to improve the NCAA, not to blow it up.

+1

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #66 on: September 26, 2016, 11:59:24 AM »
18 year old young men who can't read are basically unemployable. Saying a school who gives them room, board, coaching, medical, exposure and an environment where they can mature, hone their game, meet successful alums, etc. is taking advantage of them is a bit of a stretch. I'd bet most 18 year olds who can't read would agree.

It is taking advantage. The schools isn't giving the students adequate compensation for the services they are receiving. Yes it is great help to the student for four years but once their scholarship runs out they are on the streets again with no degree, no job experience, and an education they learned nothing from because it was too far beyond their current learning level and they were too busy playing sports to ever come close to catching up. Better to go to a juco first or play professionally if basketball is truly going to be their career.
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GGGG

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #67 on: September 26, 2016, 12:05:06 PM »
The only thing a player gets in exchange for their services is an education. A player cannot receive an education if s/he  isn't academically ready to benefit from it. If schools are allowed to "admit players who can't read" than the university is taking advantage of the players and paying them nothing for their services. That cannot be allowed.

I don't care if the NCAA does it for PR. They still keep schools from taking advantage of these students. NCAA managing eligibility is a necessity. Does it lead to some dumb decisions? Yes. Does that mean we need to throw the baby out with the bathwater?

To answer your final question...yes.

Bucha chicken littles. 

Herman Cain

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #68 on: September 26, 2016, 12:06:19 PM »
How do you define that....players were directed to classes where there were no expectations for course work or tests and seemingly no requirement to attend class....what did they learn in those classes?
The kids who actually wanted an education at UNC got a good one. No one was forced to take the easy courses. Word got around over a long period of time and kids being kids gravitated to those courses. UNC athletic department had benign neglect to what was happening, which when discovered was highly embarrassing for them.
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #69 on: September 26, 2016, 12:08:55 PM »
I disagree with your disagreement. It's not as if the academic institutions wouldn't let them attend class, they would have full access to all of the services and classes that all student athletes are afforded. If they are not able or unwilling to put themselves in a position to take advantage of that opportunity that's on society, not the academic institution which is providing them the opportunity in exchange for the play on the field.

They are providing them with an opportunity that is above their ability to succeed in. A college education is worthless if the person receiving it couldn't even succeed in high school. They have other options. Go to prep school. Go to a juco. Go play professionally if sports are truly going to be your career. I'll hear arguments about lowering the NCAA's standards. I'd be fine with giving more opportunities to students who maybe struggled in high school. But there needs to be some standards.

What do you think should be done in the North Carolina case? Nothing?
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #70 on: September 26, 2016, 12:13:27 PM »
To answer your final question...yes.

Bucha chicken littles.

I don't see anything statement that indicates a chicken little mindset. Its simple, schools pay students X, students provide Y to the schools, NCAA is there to make sure schools actually pay students X. This isn't a "the sky is falling" outlook, its how things currently are and IMHO how things should remain. I think the NCAA could be better at their job but that doesn't mean I want to fire them from said job.
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GGGG

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #71 on: September 26, 2016, 12:17:15 PM »
It is taking advantage. The schools isn't giving the students adequate compensation for the services they are receiving. Yes it is great help to the student for four years but once their scholarship runs out they are on the streets again with no degree, no job experience, and an education they learned nothing from because it was too far beyond their current learning level and they were too busy playing sports to ever come close to catching up. Better to go to a juco first or play professionally if basketball is truly going to be their career.

Or let the college decide if the student should be enrolled.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #72 on: September 26, 2016, 12:27:11 PM »
Or let the college decide if the student should be enrolled.

You could. Of course the college is most likely very self interested in having successful athletic teams. And the impact one player could have on their athletic team is exponentially higher than the impact one "kid who can't read" will have on their academic standing. So it is within the realm of possibility to assume that the college might not care if the student won't receive an education. So maybe having a neutral...er...closer to neutral 3rd party moderate isn't the worst thing.

Really this comes down to whether or not you are ok with schools profiting off of athletes who aren't benefiting from the education they are receiving. I'm not. Others are. Nothing wrong with that.
TAMU

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mu03eng

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #73 on: September 26, 2016, 01:53:04 PM »
You could. Of course the college is most likely very self interested in having successful athletic teams. And the impact one player could have on their athletic team is exponentially higher than the impact one "kid who can't read" will have on their academic standing. So it is within the realm of possibility to assume that the college might not care if the student won't receive an education. So maybe having a neutral...er...closer to neutral 3rd party moderate isn't the worst thing.

Really this comes down to whether or not you are ok with schools profiting off of athletes who aren't benefiting from the education they are receiving. I'm not. Others are. Nothing wrong with that.

Which group do you think is larger: number of kids who don't have enough education to take advantage of college opportunity or students that are denied college opportunities because of onerous NCAA regulation? I don't think either group is significantly larger than the other so your probably right it's probably where you stand depends on where you are.

I will say though, the cost of NCAA compliance at the college level would easily support at least 5 more scholarship opportunities at each university alone.

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MuMark

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Re: Big Loss for Villanova
« Reply #74 on: September 26, 2016, 02:18:15 PM »
You could. Of course the college is most likely very self interested in having successful athletic teams. And the impact one player could have on their athletic team is exponentially higher than the impact one "kid who can't read" will have on their academic standing. So it is within the realm of possibility to assume that the college might not care if the student won't receive an education. So maybe having a neutral...er...closer to neutral 3rd party moderate isn't the worst thing.

Really this comes down to whether or not you are ok with schools profiting off of athletes who aren't benefiting from the education they are receiving. I'm not. Others are. Nothing wrong with that.

The colleges have decided......they don't want to do it your way. As a group they have decided that they want an enforcement agency.