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Author Topic: X's and O's  (Read 17172 times)

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #50 on: July 29, 2016, 10:36:03 AM »
Considering we've only seen one season of his first and only recruiting class at MU, I'd say that'll be determined this upcoming season.

You keep repeating this but we have seen two of his recruiting classes, and all that is left of that first class is Sandy Cohen.  I know you give him a pass on that first class, but I think that lost time was his biggest mistake, one we are still trying to dig out off entering Year 3. 

He should of Wojo'ed the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys.  As a result, we need five years to evaluate him. Crean and Buzz got right at it in their new gigs. 

Lennys Tap

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #51 on: July 29, 2016, 10:47:09 AM »
If Jamil had assumed the mantle of leadership and taken on the competitive mindset of Butler or Crowder, he, too, could have made the league.    However, his personality did not work that way while he was at MU.    He had the physical tools.

Jamil was a really, really nice guy who had mad skills and liked to play basketball. But he was never consumed by the game and without that commitment he always left you hoping for or expecting a "more" that just wasn't there. High school, college, post college - it's who he was and is.

MU82

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #52 on: July 29, 2016, 10:54:20 AM »
I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.

Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.

Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.

Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.

Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.

As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).

We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.

Agree with pretty much all of this.

I was a big Buzz fan, and he deserves all the kudos you give him. But, in the name of objectivity ...

If you're going to get kudos for developing those players, you gotta get demerits for not developing Jamil ... for either under-recruiting guards and/or misjudging the readiness of young guards, which led to us having one of the worst starting backcourts in the nation in 2013-14 ... and sticking far too long with the Oxtule experiment.

BTW, I rate Buzz as our second-best coach since Al. Crean's FF run deserves major points, as does bringing Buzz to MU, but he's No. 3 to me. KO and Hankster probably tied for fourth.

Anybody who considers Majerus for what he did at Utah ... that's just silly. I liked Rick a lot, but he was pretty much a disaster for us as HC -- I mean, has any MU head coach failed to meet expectations as badly as Rick?
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wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #53 on: July 29, 2016, 11:03:56 AM »
You keep repeating this but we have seen two of his recruiting classes, and all that is left of that first class is Sandy Cohen.  I know you give him a pass on that first class, but I think that lost time was his biggest mistake, one we are still trying to dig out off entering Year 3. 

He should of Wojo'ed the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys.  As a result, we need five years to evaluate him. Crean and Buzz got right at it in their new gigs.

I hope this is a joke.  You realize that Crean's record at Marquette 2 seasons in was worse than Wojo's is 2 seasons in, in a much lesser conference, right?  And that it took him until year 4 to win more than 12 games at a blue blood in Indiana, right?  And that Bert was left with 3 of the best players to ever wear the MU uniform, all seniors, when he took over, right?  And that Bert was able to take who he wanted from his MU class, plus who he wanted from James Johnson's VT recruiting class. 

You realize that up until April 1, 2014, Wojo was recruiting for Duke University, not Marquette University, right?  It takes literally years of building relationships to recruit kids to a basketball program.  Kids follow head coaches who leave a program to take over a new program (Buzz from MU to VT, Crean from MU to IU).  Kids don't follow assistant coaches from one blue blood to a bottom feeder in their conference (Crean from MSU to MU, Wojo from Duke to MU).  Wojo had 6 months between getting the job and starting his first season at Marquette.  By that point, how many high major division 1 senior basketball players were unsigned or uncommitted to programs?  April of a year is too late to get in on juniors in high school.  You think he should've brought in an outstanding recruiting class of 2014?  Uh, okay........

 :o
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 11:10:23 AM by wadesworld »
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Lennys Tap

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #54 on: July 29, 2016, 11:08:17 AM »
I agree with the premise of this but I think you're off on a few things.

Wesley and Jae are closer to stars than you let on. Wesley, at least pre-injury was a borderline all star. Jae is probably the 2nd best player on a 4 seed playoff team last year and one of the best defenders in the league.

I think Jamil is a fringe NBA player. He's not going to make it, but he's a guy who will constantly be called into summer league and be one of the last 2 or 3 cuts before the season starts. That screams "fringe NBA" to me. Maybe we're just defining it differently.



Wesley career averages in 7 NBA seasons: 14.0 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.0 apg. Really good, yes - but a STAR?

Jae: 4 years, 7.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.2 apg. Solid, getting better, has the chance to become really good. At this point, definitely not a STAR.

In my mine, a "fringe" guy would be someone like Buycks (or better). In and out of the league multiple times, lots of 10 day or one year contracts. Guys who never make it but are decent for scrimmage purposes because they have comparable measurable to real NBA players? Nope.

Lennys Tap

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2016, 11:22:34 AM »




If you're going to get kudos for developing those players, you gotta get demerits for not developing Jamil ... for either under-recruiting guards and/or misjudging the readiness of young guards, which led to us having one of the worst starting backcourts in the nation in 2013-14 ... and sticking far too long with the Oxtule experiment.

BTW, I rate Buzz as our second-best coach since Al. Crean's FF run deserves major points, as does bringing Buzz to MU, but he's No. 3 to me. KO and Hankster probably tied for fourth.

Anybody who considers Majerus for what he did at Utah ... that's just silly. I liked Rick a lot, but he was pretty much a disaster for us as HC -- I mean, has any MU head coach failed to meet expectations as badly as Rick?

Nobody (HS, college, post college) has been able to turn on the switch that would transform Jamil into the single minded competitor he'd need to be to reach his full potential. Not trying to cop out, but maybe it just isn't there.

No doubt, Blue leaving caught Buzz totally flat-footed. He was as shocked as all of us, and that's on him.

Oxtule? He was looking for answers where there were none but he had to try something.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 12:09:25 PM by Lennys Tap »

bilsu

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2016, 11:50:11 AM »
Your memory is slightly fuzzy.

The 3 OT wins on the road came with the midget team that got a 6 seed.

The 22-15 team that needed to squeak in with the big WVU BE tourney win was the following year when Jimmy got us to sweet 16.

Both won two BET games but that 2ND year team ended up not being on much of a bubble as shown by their seed
You are probably right.  Although there is a point I was trying to make and that seasons often turn on luck or simply the final play that works or does not work. UW fans are thinking they should have beat Notre Dame last year and are factoring that into their predictions for this year. That is a fair assumption, but they should of lost to Xavier and if they had their optimism would not be as great. Probably no different than getting an incredible comeback win against Davidson in Buzz's Elite 8 run. A shot falling or not falling makes a huge difference in a season. A shot that falls make the coach look like a great coach and shot that misses makes the coach look like a bad coach. All a coach can do his put his players in a position to win, but only the players can win the game.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2016, 11:52:25 AM »
I hope this is a joke.  You realize that Crean's record at Marquette 2 seasons in was worse than Wojo's is 2 seasons in, in a much lesser conference, right?  And that it took him until year 4 to win more than 12 games at a blue blood in Indiana, right?  And that Bert was left with 3 of the best players to ever wear the MU uniform, all seniors, when he took over, right?  And that Bert was able to take who he wanted from his MU class, plus who he wanted from James Johnson's VT recruiting class. 

You realize that up until April 1, 2014, Wojo was recruiting for Duke University, not Marquette University, right?  It takes literally years of building relationships to recruit kids to a basketball program.  Kids follow head coaches who leave a program to take over a new program (Buzz from MU to VT, Crean from MU to IU).  Kids don't follow assistant coaches from one blue blood to a bottom feeder in their conference (Crean from MSU to MU, Wojo from Duke to MU).  Wojo had 6 months between getting the job and starting his first season at Marquette.  By that point, how many high major division 1 senior basketball players were unsigned or uncommitted to programs?  April of a year is too late to get in on juniors in high school.  You think he should've brought in an outstanding recruiting class of 2014?  Uh, okay........

 :o

Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo.  Obviously, Wojo was doing something.  By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone.  Followed by Taylor at season's end.  That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass.  It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened.  He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs.  Nice guys finish last.

As to his record, I am fine with it considering the strategy above had the blessing of the admin.  I thought last year was a bit of a disappointment but also with good .  The end of the Buzz Era and the start of Wojo's were the result of a completely effed up university leadership that went well beyond basketball.  The fact is with Wojo, it will take a full five years.  No quick fixes, and the roster still has deep holes.  Thus, the extension, though.  It is what it is.  But that start was time misspent to the detriment of the program.

MU82

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2016, 11:59:14 AM »
Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo.  Obviously, Wojo was doing something.  By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone.  Followed by Taylor at season's end.  That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass.  It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened.  He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs.  Nice guys finish last.


Teal, right?
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wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2016, 12:11:53 PM »
Gabe Levin, Sandy Cohen, Matt Carlino, Wally Ellenson and Nick Noskowiak all committed or recommitted to Wojo.  Obviously, Wojo was doing something.  By mid-season, Mayo, Burton and Dawson were gone.  Followed by Taylor at season's end.  That first year doesn't deserve a 100% free pass.  It was a waste of resources and left holes in the program as the inevitable happened.  He should have got on with it like other experienced coaches who took over new programs.  Nice guys finish last.

As to his record, I am fine with it considering the strategy above had the blessing of the admin.  I thought last year was a bit of a disappointment but also with good .  The end of the Buzz Era and the start of Wojo's were the result of a completely effed up university leadership that went well beyond basketball.  The fact is with Wojo, it will take a full five years.  No quick fixes, and the roster still has deep holes.  Thus, the extension, though.  It is what it is.  But that start was time misspent to the detriment of the program.

I guess I'll ask again.  Is this a joke?

I don't get it.  In the original post I quoted of yours you say he needed to "Wojo the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys."  Now you're complaining that Dawson, Mayo, Burton, and Taylor were gone.  Which is it?

So what he should've done was wiped the program clean of every scholarship player besides for the ones he would've recruited himself to play the style he wanted, and try to recruit an entire new roster as of April 1, 2014?

Yeah, the problem is Wojo wasn't experienced and didn't know how to begin his rebuild.  More experienced coaches would obviously have used that method.

I guess I'll shorten my argument by leaving it at this: Yes, Wojo should get a 100% pass on his first season.
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forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2016, 12:18:32 PM »
I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.

Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.

Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.

Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.

Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.

As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).

We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.

Actually, I do like Buzz a lot.  Think he was and is a great coach.  As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team. 

Jimmy is a star.  Wesley Matthews is a star.  Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).

And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season. 

The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc.  They were also very good coaches.  Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4.  O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.

Buzz inherited one of the best teams we have had in decades.  Superseded only by Wade and company.   Buzz wasn't here long enough to compare as an all time great.

Oh, and on Jimmy Butler.  You can go through the archives if you want, but I said his first year that he would be a star and in the NBA.  And talk to Buzz sometime about Jimmy, I have.  Buzz will say first hand that he didn't develop Jimmy, that Jimmy had the highest basketball IQ of any player he has seen and never left the gym working on his game by himself. 

#UnleashSean

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2016, 03:06:36 PM »
Buzz has to have one of the better ratios for having players play in the nba. Right? (note: play. Not stay)

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MU82

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #62 on: July 29, 2016, 03:19:41 PM »
Actually, I do like Buzz a lot.  Think he was and is a great coach.  As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team. 

Jimmy is a star.  Wesley Matthews is a star.  Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).

And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season. 

The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc.  They were also very good coaches.  Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4.  O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.

Buzz inherited one of the best teams we have had in decades.  Superseded only by Wade and company.   Buzz wasn't here long enough to compare as an all time great.

Oh, and on Jimmy Butler.  You can go through the archives if you want, but I said his first year that he would be a star and in the NBA.  And talk to Buzz sometime about Jimmy, I have.  Buzz will say first hand that he didn't develop Jimmy, that Jimmy had the highest basketball IQ of any player he has seen and never left the gym working on his game by himself.

Others can debate in this whatever they want. My only nit to pick is the casual way you throw around "star."

Wes absolutely is not a star. Jae is not close to being a star.

Loved them when they were Warriors and like watching them now in the NBA, but why try to claim they are something they're not?

Two outstanding college players, as seniors, anyway. One is a proven, good NBA performer; and one has the makings of a solid pro and hopefully more than that.

I'd be interested in your definition of "star."
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BM1090

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #63 on: July 29, 2016, 03:27:41 PM »
Wesley career averages in 7 NBA seasons: 14.0 ppg, 3.1 rpg, 2.0 apg. Really good, yes - but a STAR?

Jae: 4 years, 7.8 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 1.2 apg. Solid, getting better, has the chance to become really good. At this point, definitely not a STAR.

In my mine, a "fringe" guy would be someone like Buycks (or better). In and out of the league multiple times, lots of 10 day or one year contracts. Guys who never make it but are decent for scrimmage purposes because they have comparable measurable to real NBA players? Nope.

Fair. I think I just have a looser definition of "fringe" and "star" than you do. Wes, in his two pre-Achilles seasons, averaged 16.4 ppg and 15.9 ppg. He was also known as one of the best defenders in the league. A lot of "being a star" is unfairly about publicity. For example, Demar DeRozan is a "star" and an Olympian at the same position. He wasn't a better player then Wes from 2013-2015.

Jae...yeah. "Star" is a reach. But he's a very good, valuable player. And without him Boston would be significantly worse.

Regarding Jamil, I think that's fair. We have different definitions of what a "fringe" NBA player is. No argument there.

MerrittsMustache

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #64 on: July 29, 2016, 03:49:40 PM »
Fair. I think I just have a looser definition of "fringe" and "star" than you do. Wes, in his two pre-Achilles seasons, averaged 16.4 ppg and 15.9 ppg. He was also known as one of the best defenders in the league. A lot of "being a star" is unfairly about publicity. For example, Demar DeRozan is a "star" and an Olympian at the same position. He wasn't a better player then Wes from 2013-2015.


Huh?



Lennys Tap

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #65 on: July 29, 2016, 04:43:21 PM »
Actually, I do like Buzz a lot.  Think he was and is a great coach.  As for "team bubble watch," not my term, that was given to us by the media for being a perennial bubble team. 

Jimmy is a star.  Wesley Matthews is a star.  Crowder is borderline a star. (note I didn't say all star).

And I explicitly stated that in saying "Fringe NBA player" I'm going by what a lot of people on the board were saying before their senior season. 

The problem I had was with people comparing him to Al and saying he is better than Crean, O'neil etc.  They were also very good coaches.  Hell Crean is still immensely successful at a Blue-blood and did take MU to the final 4.  O'neil made us a tournament team in a bad conference and resurrected us from the dumps.


1."Team Bubble Watch" isn't "your term". So what? It's verifiably inaccurate yet you used it to make a point.

2.Your standard for stardom is lower than anyone not related to Wesley or Jae.

3. Who cares what "what a lot of people on the board were saying" before Jamil and Davonte's senior year. Facts show they're not "fringe NBA players". In Davonte's case they show he never was.

4. No one compares Buzz to Al - Al is in a class by himself. He was better than Crean or O'Neill, though, by any fair measure.

5. It is inaccurate to say that Tom Crean has been "immensely successful" at Indiana.

brewcity77

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #66 on: July 29, 2016, 05:10:38 PM »
Team Bubble Watch wasn't inaccurate. In 2010, we spent most of the season on the outside looking in after our 2-5 league start. We got hot and climbed off the bubble, but that 6 seed shocked everyone. In 2011, we were one of the last teams into the field. Those two years got us the nickname, and it was reinforced in 2014 when we rode a 5-1 stretch back up to a 17-11 record. Two more wins would have given us a shot, but instead we lost at Nova, lost a pair of double overtime games by 1 point each to Providence and St John's, and lost by 3 to Xavier in NYC. We spent 3/5 seasons on the bubble. We didn't come across the nickname by chance.
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Dr. Blackheart

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #67 on: July 29, 2016, 05:26:47 PM »
Teal, right?

Facts.  I don't revise history.

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #68 on: July 29, 2016, 05:33:19 PM »
I guess I'll ask again.  Is this a joke?

I don't get it.  In the original post I quoted of yours you say he needed to "Wojo the guys who didn't fit and move on to his guys."  Now you're complaining that Dawson, Mayo, Burton, and Taylor were gone.  Which is it?

So what he should've done was wiped the program clean of every scholarship player besides for the ones he would've recruited himself to play the style he wanted, and try to recruit an entire new roster as of April 1, 2014?

Yeah, the problem is Wojo wasn't experienced and didn't know how to begin his rebuild.  More experienced coaches would obviously have used that method.

I guess I'll shorten my argument by leaving it at this: Yes, Wojo should get a 100% pass on his first season.

Please read.  I am not complaining they are gone.  I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys.  Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history.  He wasted a year playing nicey nice.  And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 06:08:44 PM by Dr. Blackheart »

wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #69 on: July 29, 2016, 07:08:07 PM »
Please read.  I am not complaining they are gone.  I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys.  Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history.  He wasted a year playing nicey nice.  And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.

Go back 3 months and look through who was available for the 2016 recruiting class. What would you have liked Wojo to have done? Cut Duane, JJJ, Cohen, Dawson, Taylor, Juan, and Deonte (guys he never would recruit if they were, say, in the class of 2017) and get...who, exactly?

I guess he probably could've walked over to the Rec Center on a Thursday evening and found 10 ready-made Big East caliber studs who just happened to not want to play college basketball and instead just pay $30K/year to attend Marquette University and play some pickup ball that are big, strong, quick, and shoot the lights out.

If you think Wojo could've come in and cut the roster down to 3 scholarship players, 1 of whom wouldn't be eligible until the 2nd semester, and somehow come out better than he has, I really don't know what to say.

Then again you probably think he could've just got Jhalil Okafor, Justice Winslow, Tyus Jones, and Grayson Allen to ask for their release from their NLIs to Duke (because, again, they were high school seniors...in April...already signed...like all high major recruits...) and get them to come along with him to Marquette.

I can't believe I didn't think of that. You're right. Wojo screwed the pooch on this one!
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 07:12:05 PM by wadesworld »
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MU82

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #70 on: July 29, 2016, 07:31:53 PM »
Please read.  I am not complaining they are gone.  I am complaining they weren't gone earlier. And he was on to his guys.  Your premise that Wojo had only one recruiting class is revisionist history.  He wasted a year playing nicey nice.  And now in Year 3, MU is still unbalanced as a result. How you and 82 can dismiss his first recruiting class is interesting to say the least. It was a wasted opportunity by a rookie coach and rookie President.

Who the eff was he supposed to get?

Names, please.

If you can't provide the names of at least three available players he (or any MU coach) could have realistically landed after he arrived on campus in mid-April, you are criticizing for the sake of criticizing.
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forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #71 on: July 29, 2016, 07:44:44 PM »
Others can debate in this whatever they want. My only nit to pick is the casual way you throw around "star."

Wes absolutely is not a star. Jae is not close to being a star.

Loved them when they were Warriors and like watching them now in the NBA, but why try to claim they are something they're not?

Two outstanding college players, as seniors, anyway. One is a proven, good NBA performer; and one has the makings of a solid pro and hopefully more than that.

I'd be interested in your definition of "star."

Here is the way I was looking at it.  Prior to Matthews injury, he would have started for probably every team in the NBA (at the 2 or 3 depending on the rest of the roster).  I deem that a star.  I know the Mavericks consider him a star.

For Crowder, it is more complicated.  I'd ask this first.  Was Bruce Bowen a star?

Crowder is one of the best defenders in the league, can guard 3 positions and is at least an offensive threat.  He's probably one of the top 10, 3 and D players in the NBA.  He's also only 25. 

Now if you don't think D makes one a star then Crowder isn't a star (and Matthews likely isn't either).  But they are hot commodities, because of their value on both ends of the floor.  That's my rationale, but its all just opinion so I understand some will disagree.

GGGG

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #72 on: July 29, 2016, 07:54:51 PM »
Here is the way I was looking at it.  Prior to Matthews injury, he would have started for probably every team in the NBA (at the 2 or 3 depending on the rest of the roster).  I deem that a star. 

Wes would not have started for "probably every team in the NBA."

forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #73 on: July 29, 2016, 07:58:22 PM »
Wes would not have started for "probably every team in the NBA."

You're an NBA officianado so I will take your word for it.  I was just having a hard time coming up with teams that wouldn't have killed for his services before his injury. 

At most I was coming up with a handful...but again, not familiar enough with all the teams so I'll take your word on this and crawl away.

Galway Eagle

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #74 on: July 30, 2016, 08:27:09 AM »
Jae is far from a star but Wes was certainly almost there. If u recall he was like the first or second player without enough votes to make the all star game. That qualified as borderline star. Jae is not, perhaps if he starts getting all defensive team mentions he can be in his own right.
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