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Author Topic: X's and O's  (Read 17165 times)

MerrittsMustache

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2016, 04:08:14 PM »
If it's everyone in their prime it's

1) Al
2) Tex Winters
3) Majerus
4) Buzz

If it's based on their time at MU then yes there's a big drop from buzz to Crean/Raymonds/O'Neil

Why would we go "in their prime" as opposed to during their time at MU?

Who's the greatest all-time Was/Bal Bullet/Wizard: Wes Unseld or Michael Jordan?

Greatest Seattle Seahawks in history? Jerry Rice.

Willie Mays was snubbed from the Mets' 50th Anniversary team!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 04:09:45 PM by MerrittsMustache »

Dawson Rental

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2016, 04:11:45 PM »
I wouldn't call it so much as selling Gardner and Otule short, as they were both talented bigs that Buzz had.  But neither were "quality bigs" in terms of recruiting.  Both were complete unknowns that were not gaining a whole lot of other high major interest.

I think you can go all the way and say neither receieved any high major interest.  Gardner's next best offer was South Florida, and I not certain that Otule had any other offers at all, certainly no high major or likely even mid-major.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

NotAnAlum

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2016, 04:12:42 PM »
I'm on the perch with you - hoping Wojo gets me off that fence this year.

I agree.  But the point of discussing this is to use what information we have on Wojo to make a guess on whether he is likely to succeed or not.  You can't take anything from the first year particularly once Carlino got hurt.  This year I was very concerned for the first 2/3 of the season because they didn't appear to have any goal on offense as to what they were trying to do.  Normally I would say that is on the coach.  However by the final 3rd of the season their offense actually looked organized and well run.  So maybe the first 2/3 they were simply too young and unfamiliar with each other to execute what he trained them to do in practice.  If that is true and since all the major players except HE are back it should bode well for the upcoming season AND we should see evidence of that early on.  The concerning thing about the end of last year was as good as their offense had become their defense seemed to go backward.  That is a concern because Wojo was supposed to be a defense focused guy and the BE tends to be a defense league.  Wojo has yet to show he can improve the way individual players play defense and then change either the players or the defensive strategy (zone or gimmick defenses) to break another team's momentum.  He did it with zone when he had to his first year and it worked until he got completely overmatched but the team seemed content to try to out score people at the end of last year and that is concerning.

Dawson Rental

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2016, 04:14:21 PM »
My biggest issue with Crean were his set plays.  Too complex for college players. Too much thinking of where you needed to be on the court and yelling incessantly at them did not help.

Buzz kept the offense much simpler which helps younger players figure it out quicker.

Not that he played freshmen much.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 04:54:04 AM by Crean to Ann Arbor »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Class71

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2016, 04:26:51 PM »
Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?
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wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2016, 04:28:18 PM »
Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?

Considering we've only seen one season of his first and only recruiting class at MU, I'd say that'll be determined this upcoming season.
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tower912

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2016, 04:29:50 PM »
I'm just wondering if you think Wojo got less out of the past 2 teams than he could've.  You've probably been the most vocal poster about how you can't expect anything out of freshman so last year you expected nothing from the team.  And the year before your core group of guys was a redshirt freshman Duane Wilson, Derrick Wilson, Matt Carlino, Steve Taylor, and, for half of a season, Luke Fischer.  Not many coaches are winning many games with that lineup.
   We agree. 

14-15.... I think he squeezed about as much out of that team as he could.   He set down important benchmarks for expected performance, choosing to DNP-CD JjJ and running with 7.   Fischer was never healthy, Carlino missed games with a concussion..... yes, he squeezed as much as he could out of that line up
15-16.... A very young team.....  Wojo didn't cost the team much

It isn't fair to Wojo, because he didn't really underachieve.   He didn't overachieve, either.  He delivered about what I expected from both teams.   No better, no worse.       

This year, IMO, the lack of size beyond Fischer/Heldt is going to be a chronic Achilles heel for this team.   I expect that MU will be as good or better than last year; another 20 win season, but an NIT berth, not NCAA berth.   For me to get off of the fence about Wojo, he needs to put a team out there that exceeds expectations.     He hasn't shown any magic yet.    He has been workmanlike, met expectations, but not done anything beyond those expectations.   
« Last Edit: July 28, 2016, 04:35:22 PM by tower912 »
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4everwarriors

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2016, 05:02:38 PM »
Crean sucks
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

MUDPT

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2016, 05:24:27 PM »
Three comments.
First Wojo gave up with the idea of Cheatham playing point, which you could argue shows that Wojo was willing to adjust. (point for Wojo).
Second Buzz's 17-15 team played a significantly tougher schedule. (point for Buzz)
Without looking at the schedule and relying on my memory (which often gets me in trouble with you guys), Buzz's team was still in the running for an NCAA bid with three games to go in the conference season and lost some critical games in overtime. Neither team got an NIT bid, but Buzz's team was much closer to getting a bid than Wojo's. These are the things I remember happening at the end of the season. Ball being passed into Thomas who holds the ball expecting to be fouled and gets a jump called instead. Play turn a win into a loss. Home game with MU down needing a basket to tie or win. Buzz designs play for Jamil. Other team covers Jamil well and he throws it to Derrick who misses a 10ft jumper and even worse does not hit the rim taking away a chance for a tip in. It may of been the same game as Thomas being tied up. Late in game, MU is up, Derrick has ball and misses a wide open three point shot with plenty of time still on the clock. MU also lost to San Diego St. with Gardner playing with the flu. Arizona St. beats MU when Derrick misses layup instead of giving the ball to Thomas who single handily got MU back into the game. Basically everything went wrong that season. The exact opposite of Buzz's second season where everything went right. That season MU won three overtime games in a row and then two Big East tournament games to squeak out an NCAA bid. We praise Buzz for being a great coach for going 22-15 with that team. He may of been more lucky than good. We criticize buzz for going 17-15 with his last team. He may of been more unlucky than bad. Coming off an Elite 8 my expectations for that team with Blue and McKay was off the charts. That team was cursed as soon as Blue left.

The 2010 team started 2-5 in conference with the 5 losses by a combined 11 points. The luck turned around at the end of the season.

It's why I'm not convinced we actually made significant progress last year. We won a lot of close games that we lost in 2015.

My biggest question with last year's tactics was why the uptempo if our guards were turning it over so much?

Galway Eagle

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #34 on: July 28, 2016, 05:29:28 PM »
Why would we go "in their prime" as opposed to during their time at MU?

Who's the greatest all-time Was/Bal Bullet/Wizard: Wes Unseld or Michael Jordan?

Greatest Seattle Seahawks in history? Jerry Rice.

Willie Mays was snubbed from the Mets' 50th Anniversary team!

The Lens brought up majerus in his prime I was just saying if we're talking about coaches hitting their stride later then Tex has to be the biggest loss.

For the record I think Wojo will be another in the line of Tex and Rick. Great coach but Marquette doesn't get to enjoy that success.
Maigh Eo for Sam

forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #35 on: July 28, 2016, 05:45:54 PM »
Who? JJJ - a wildly inconsistent frosh with no outside shot? Eonte Burton? John Dawson?

When did Buzz say that he refused to design plays for Jake?

So, your solution to the PG situation was to bench the team's best ball-handler and only above average perimeter defender and give the reins to the two most TO-prone players on the team? Interesting strategy.

Again, where exactly was all the talent on the '13-14 team?

Finally, the 2013-14 team went 2-4 in OT games and lost two more one-possession games. Buzz's team typically had a very thin margin for error and that season they ended up on the wrong side of most of the close ones...you know, because Buzz tanked the season  ::)

You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will.  Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.

As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.

As for talent.  The team had:  Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player,  Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos.  They were not developed by him at all.  Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).

The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season.  The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.

Your last point is important.  Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament. 

Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10).  He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).

He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.

As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far.  This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe.  Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations.  NIT is the reasonable expectation.

Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).

wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #36 on: July 28, 2016, 05:54:46 PM »
You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will.  Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.

As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.

As for talent.  The team had:  Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player,  Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos.  They were not developed by him at all.  Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).

The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season.  The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.

Your last point is important.  Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament. 

Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10).  He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).

He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.

As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far.  This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe.  Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations.  NIT is the reasonable expectation.

Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).

Robert Jackson disagrees with you.

What?  JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.
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real chili 83

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #37 on: July 28, 2016, 06:21:51 PM »
ND sucks

real chili 83

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #38 on: July 28, 2016, 06:23:41 PM »
The best X's and O's coach was Hank...while he was Al's assistant.

John freakin' Wooden used to call him for coaching advice. 

forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #39 on: July 28, 2016, 07:14:34 PM »
Robert Jackson disagrees with you.

What?  JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.

Damn, I was debating saying 10 or 15 years.  Robert Jackson seems longer than 15 years ago, but you are right.  Gardner is no Robert Jackson.

As for JJJ v. Jamil and/or Heldt v. Gardner. 

Coming into 13-14, there were several on here that thought Jamil and Gardner could make the NBA.  No one is saying JJJ and Heldt are making the NBA after this season.

forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #40 on: July 28, 2016, 07:18:45 PM »
Robert Jackson disagrees with you.

What?  JJJ has just as good of a chance at the NBA as Jamil had, and Matt Heldt (or, heck, Cam Marotta) has a better chance at the NBA than Davante Gardner had.

And again, I'm not saying Buzz wasn't a good coach he was a great coach.  But this years team would have been at best the 2nd worst team Buzz would have coached (very comparable to his worst).  He wasn't any more likely to make the NCAA than Wojo with this bunch.

If we are ranking coaches.  There is:

1.  Al
2-5. (All comparable and in no order) Crean, Hank, O'neil and Buzz.

wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #41 on: July 28, 2016, 08:19:18 PM »
Damn, I was debating saying 10 or 15 years.  Robert Jackson seems longer than 15 years ago, but you are right.  Gardner is no Robert Jackson.

As for JJJ v. Jamil and/or Heldt v. Gardner. 

Coming into 13-14, there were several on here that thought Jamil and Gardner could make the NBA.  No one is saying JJJ and Heldt are making the NBA after this season.

Yes.  As good as Davante was, Robert Jackson would have dominated him.  Jackson is one of the more underrated Marquette players in my lifetime.  Probably mostly due to the fact that he played only one year at Marquette and next to Dwyane Wade.

Whoever was saying Davante could potentially make the NBA at any point in his life simply doesn't understand what it takes to play in the NBA.  Jamil at least had the physical tools that would've allowed him to at least have a chance to make it to the NBA, but he never came close to the ability to put it all together.  Neither of those guys had any chance at the NBA.
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PGsHeroes32

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #42 on: July 28, 2016, 08:56:51 PM »
Three comments.
First Wojo gave up with the idea of Cheatham playing point, which you could argue shows that Wojo was willing to adjust. (point for Wojo).
Second Buzz's 17-15 team played a significantly tougher schedule. (point for Buzz)
Without looking at the schedule and relying on my memory (which often gets me in trouble with you guys), Buzz's team was still in the running for an NCAA bid with three games to go in the conference season and lost some critical games in overtime. Neither team got an NIT bid, but Buzz's team was much closer to getting a bid than Wojo's. These are the things I remember happening at the end of the season. Ball being passed into Thomas who holds the ball expecting to be fouled and gets a jump called instead. Play turn a win into a loss. Home game with MU down needing a basket to tie or win. Buzz designs play for Jamil. Other team covers Jamil well and he throws it to Derrick who misses a 10ft jumper and even worse does not hit the rim taking away a chance for a tip in. It may of been the same game as Thomas being tied up. Late in game, MU is up, Derrick has ball and misses a wide open three point shot with plenty of time still on the clock. MU also lost to San Diego St. with Gardner playing with the flu. Arizona St. beats MU when Derrick misses layup instead of giving the ball to Thomas who single handily got MU back into the game. Basically everything went wrong that season. The exact opposite of Buzz's second season where everything went right. That season MU won three overtime games in a row and then two Big East tournament games to squeak out an NCAA bid. We praise Buzz for being a great coach for going 22-15 with that team. He may of been more lucky than good. We criticize buzz for going 17-15 with his last team. He may of been more unlucky than bad. Coming off an Elite 8 my expectations for that team with Blue and McKay was off the charts. That team was cursed as soon as Blue left.

Your memory is slightly fuzzy.

The 3 OT wins on the road came with the midget team that got a 6 seed.

The 22-15 team that needed to squeak in with the big WVU BE tourney win was the following year when Jimmy got us to sweet 16.

Both won two BET games but that 2nd year team ended up not being on much of a bubble as shown by their seed
Lazar picking up where the BIG 3 left off....

forgetful

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #43 on: July 28, 2016, 09:09:47 PM »
Yes.  As good as Davante was, Robert Jackson would have dominated him.  Jackson is one of the more underrated Marquette players in my lifetime.  Probably mostly due to the fact that he played only one year at Marquette and next to Dwyane Wade.

Whoever was saying Davante could potentially make the NBA at any point in his life simply doesn't understand what it takes to play in the NBA.  Jamil at least had the physical tools that would've allowed him to at least have a chance to make it to the NBA, but he never came close to the ability to put it all together.  Neither of those guys had any chance at the NBA.

Agree on all accounts.  When I was saying NBA talent I was using what a lot of people mistakenly use.  Being a college star.  Gardner was a college all-star, (so people thought he could play in the NBA), that isn't how things work though.  Point was at the college level the 13-14 team wasn't talent poor by any means.

What they lacked was the leader that could totally take over the game.  Unfortunately, this years team doesn't have that either...at least yet.

Disco Hippie

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #44 on: July 28, 2016, 10:11:31 PM »
Agree on all accounts.  When I was saying NBA talent I was using what a lot of people mistakenly use.  Being a college star.  Gardner was a college all-star, (so people thought he could play in the NBA), that isn't how things work though.  Point was at the college level the 13-14 team wasn't talent poor by any means.

What they lacked was the leader that could totally take over the game.  Unfortunately, this years team doesn't have that either...at least yet.

TWO WORDS:  SACAR ANIM!  HE WILL BE THAT PLAYER FOR US NEXT SEASON AND NO DOUBT WILL BE A SOLID NBA CONTRIBUTOR IN FEW YEARS.  THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE TRANSFORMATIVE SEASON SACAR IS ABOUT TO HAVE ONLY BENEFIT HIM PERSONALLY OR THE ENTIRE TEAM.   THA'S THE $1M QUESTION.

wadesworld

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2016, 10:31:32 PM »
TWO WORDS:  SACAR ANIM!  HE WILL BE THAT PLAYER FOR US NEXT SEASON AND NO DOUBT WILL BE A SOLID NBA CONTRIBUTOR IN FEW YEARS.  THE BIG QUESTION IS WILL THE TRANSFORMATIVE SEASON SACAR IS ABOUT TO HAVE ONLY BENEFIT HIM PERSONALLY OR THE ENTIRE TEAM.   THA'S THE $1M QUESTION.

K.
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Dawson Rental

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #46 on: July 29, 2016, 04:57:08 AM »
Well I guess it is interesting to assess past coaches and rank them in order. I would rather, however, talk about the upcoming season and how Wojo is going to turn things around. Unfortunately I do no see how we will significantly improve from last year. If Wojo does elevate this team to a bid he is on his way. If not maybe we need to reassess. How many years does the rebuilding process take? I like Wojo but other than some good recruiting how has this team developed?

More experienced roster, and much improved outside shooting.

Rebounding?  Not so much.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Lennys Tap

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #47 on: July 29, 2016, 09:46:38 AM »
You didn't have to necessarily bench D.Will, but could have run a PG by committee with Mayo, JJJ and D.Will.  Again, it takes developing them in the offseason...you know like Wojo did with Cheatham...who most definitely was not a PG coming in.

As per Jake, it was stated numerous times that he wasn't going to design plays to get the players a shot, he wanted them to get shots from the standard offense and dribble-drive to the paint.

As for talent.  The team had:  Jamil Wilson (Again, mis-developed by Buzz), but still a very skilled player,  Davante Gardner (our best big in the last 15 years not named Ellenson), Otule (a very solid defender), JJJ, Deonte, Duane (unfortunately injured) were more heralded than the three amigos.  They were not developed by him at all.  Todd Mayo (disciplinary problems, but very skilled).

The 2013-14 team had two fringe NBA players in Jamil and Gardner coming into the season.  The 2016-17 team doesn't have anyone being discussed as a even a fringe NBA player for this draft.

Your last point is important.  Buzz took teams with NBA stars (Butler, Matthews, Crowder) and NBA players (Hayward, DJO, Buycks, Vander) and turned them into team Bubble watch, always barely making the tournament. 

Buzz's teams played below potential during all regular seasons (except 09-10).  He played to expectations in the tournament most years (below expectations in 08-09 and above expectations in 10-11, 12-13).

He was a very good coach for us, but people acting like he is the second coming of Al is absurd.

As for Wojo, in my opinion he has played to the teams potential so far.  This year, potential says they should be back to team bubble-watch, on the fringe.  Wojo will be evaluated largely on this season, if he puts this team in the tournament it will be above expectations.  NIT is the reasonable expectation.

Funny thing, I think Wojo's infinitely better ability at developing skills in the offseason makes this years squad a big surprise and we make the sweet 16 (50% dreaming).

I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.

Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.

Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.

Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.

Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.

As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).

We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 09:54:08 AM by Lennys Tap »

BM1090

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #48 on: July 29, 2016, 10:15:35 AM »
I almost don't know where to begin - so much of this is hyperbole and much of the rest just absurd.

Let begin with one of the few things you're right about. Jimmy Butler is an NBA star. And when he arrived at Marquette he looked so tentative that some here were calling him a wasted scholarship. Kudos to Buzz for his development.

Now for the rest - Wesley Matthews is not an NBA star. He is, however, a very good NBA player. After 3 years at MU under Tom Crean his NBA chances were zero. Crean preferred D James shooting it to Wesley. After his senior year, Wes publicly thanked Buzz fro removing the shackles Crean had saddled him with for 3 years. Kudos to Buzz.

Crowder is nowhere near an NBA star. He's solid, nothing more. He arrived at Marquette as a good college player and by year two was the Big East POY. Kudos to him - and Buzz.

Calling Jamil Wilson and even worse Davonte Gardner "fringe NBA players" is ridiculous.

As for turning them all into "team bubble watch", that's a fiction. He made the tournament for 5 straight years with seeds as follows: 6, 6, 11, 3, and 3. His records those years in a much tougher than today's Big East were 12-6, 11-7, 9-9 (the ONLY year we were actually close to the bubble), 14-4 and 14-4 (co Big East Champs).

We get it - you don't like Buzz. That's your prerogative. Drawing false conclusions based on false or slanted data isn't.

I agree with the premise of this but I think you're off on a few things.

Wesley and Jae are closer to stars than you let on. Wesley, at least pre-injury was a borderline all star. Jae is probably the 2nd best player on a 4 seed playoff team last year and one of the best defenders in the league.

I think Jamil is a fringe NBA player. He's not going to make it, but he's a guy who will constantly be called into summer league and be one of the last 2 or 3 cuts before the season starts. That screams "fringe NBA" to me. Maybe we're just defining it differently.

Team Bubble watch, we agree there. We were safely in the tournament 4 out of those 5 years, and that first 6 seed could have been far higher if it weren't for D. James foot injury. It did look like the midgets team was destined for the bubble (or worse) for awhile, but by the end of the year that team was safely off. The only year we were truly on the bubble was the 2010-11 team that ended up in the Sweet 16.

tower912

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Re: X's and O's
« Reply #49 on: July 29, 2016, 10:18:28 AM »
If Jamil had assumed the mantle of leadership and taken on the competitive mindset of Butler or Crowder, he, too, could have made the league.    However, his personality did not work that way while he was at MU.    He had the physical tools.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

 

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