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Author Topic: Henry Math  (Read 24729 times)

bamamarquettefan

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Re: Henry Math Dominic james
« Reply #75 on: June 24, 2016, 10:55:28 PM »
If Dominic James had gone pro after his stellar first season, a similar argument could be made.  "If DJ had stayed one more year to work on his outside shot......"  Yet the argument would have been invalid.  With Henry, he might have been injured during his sophomore year.  He might not have improved significantly.  You can't know with any certainty.

Now, for my own selfish reasons, I wish Henry had stayed.

True, but Dominic James is such a rare exception. I ran thousands of careers of four year players and it was unheard of to have the freshman year be the best year. In value add terms a player typically more than doubles between freshman and sophomore season and then levels out. I think it takes a dramatic change in lineup, in that case losing one of the greatest three-point shooters in Novak so teams could start collapsing on the drive.
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MUSF

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #76 on: June 24, 2016, 11:30:58 PM »
Vander was tracking Denzells progress in college. It is not at all magical that he could have a monster senior year with us. In fact Denzell was a questionable player his first two years just like Vander. He did not start truly blossoming until the big game he had versus us when he found his three point touch and then  built his junior season from there. I think your forgetting how good Vander was by the end of his junior year. 
Denzell
Freshman 5.0
Sophomore 8.0
Junior         14.5
Senior        19.2

Vander
Freshman  5.1
Sophomore 8.4
Junior         14.8
Senior DNP College Went Overseas and Cup of Coffee in NBA

I'm not forgetting how good Vander was.  I just think it is very unlikely that in his senior season at MU he would average 19 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg, and 44% 3P% while earning the AP player of the year award.  Not to mention Vander would have to increase his height and weight while simultaneously developing a lot of intangible qualities that made Valentine one of the best leaders and all-around players in MSU history.

All of the above contributed to Valentine's draft position.  Interesting that you chose to cherry pick literally the only significant stat category (ppg) where Vander was comparable to Valentine.

GGGG

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #77 on: June 25, 2016, 06:09:23 AM »
So Stone made a mistake?


I think Stone should have stayed.  But neither know him nor his situation.  Without that information, I can't really judge.

Pakuni

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #78 on: June 25, 2016, 06:52:37 AM »

Exhibit A: Vander Blue

Nope.
Because the reasons Vander wasn't drafted are the same reasons he hasn't been able to stick on an NBA roster, and those reasons have nothing to do with whether he played another years of college ball.

bilsu

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #79 on: June 25, 2016, 07:50:32 AM »
Nope.
Because the reasons Vander wasn't drafted are the same reasons he hasn't been able to stick on an NBA roster, and those reasons have nothing to do with whether he played another years of college ball.
To me Vander often made poor decisions on the court. His junior year he significantly improved in that category. Playing another year of college may of resulted in him improving again in his on court decision making. Also, if he had stayed he may of played point at MU. Who knows if this would of been enough for him to get a first round draft choice like Denzell, which would have given him three years to develop into an NBA player. Going early did not help him and we do not know what staying would of done for him.

Jay Bee

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #80 on: June 25, 2016, 08:15:31 AM »
Vander was tracking Denzells progress in college. It is not at all magical that he could have a monster senior year with us. In fact Denzell was a questionable player his first two years just like Vander. He did not start truly blossoming until the big game he had versus us when he found his three point touch and then  built his junior season from there. I think your forgetting how good Vander was by the end of his junior year. 
Denzell
Freshman 5.0
Sophomore 8.0
Junior         14.5
Senior        19.2

Vander
Freshman  5.1
Sophomore 8.4
Junior         14.8
Senior DNP College Went Overseas and Cup of Coffee in NBA

This analysis is broken. What does PPG tell you? Not a lot.

Sophomore year, per above:
Vander 8.4, DV 8.0. Looks good, but...

Vander: 95.6 Ortg, 21% usage, 43.0% eFG%
DV: 106.9 Ortg, 18% usage, 48.9% eFG%

As juniors.. again, Vander w/ higher PPG, but so what?:
Vander:104.2 Ortg, 24% usage, 50.4% eFG
DV: 114.2 Ortg, 24% usage, 55.7% eFG%

Their numbers were not even close.
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brewcity77

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #81 on: June 25, 2016, 09:01:25 AM »
I guess I get that the draft just happened, but how long are we going to rehash Henry's decision to go pro? He's gone. What else is there to really say? Thanks, goodnight, and good luck.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #82 on: June 25, 2016, 10:53:46 AM »
I guess I get that the draft just happened, but how long are we going to rehash Henry's decision to go pro? He's gone. What else is there to really say? Thanks, goodnight, and good luck.
That's why I tried to change the subject back to Vander. We can beat that llama forever.
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Pakuni

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #83 on: June 26, 2016, 02:36:07 PM »
To me Vander often made poor decisions on the court. His junior year he significantly improved in that category. Playing another year of college may of resulted in him improving again in his on court decision making. Also, if he had stayed he may of played point at MU. Who knows if this would of been enough for him to get a first round draft choice like Denzell, which would have given him three years to develop into an NBA player. Going early did not help him and we do not know what staying would of done for him.

Decision making isn't why Vander wasn't drafted. He wasn't drafted because he lacks a true position. His combination of size and lack of shooting means he's not a 2 in the NBA, and he lacks the ball skills to run the point. I just don't see 30ish games in college doing for him what his 150ish D-league/summer league games haven't.

MU82

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #84 on: June 26, 2016, 07:51:30 PM »
Vander wasn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

And he still isn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

It's funny that some simply don't get this.

As for Dominic James being such an outlier, I believe Dee Brown would have been most intriguing to NBA teams had he gone pro after his freshman year at Illinois.

Brown's best statistical season actually was when he was a junior and backcourt partner Deron Williams carried the Illini to the national title game, but Brown got hurt during workouts -- which might or might not have been a blessing in disguise because he probably wouldn't have been drafted.

He returned for his senior year and was allowed to play 35+ mpg at PG. He did fairly well for a 26-7 team and was drafted in the 2nd round (46th overall) by Utah. But the Jazz learned in Brown's first season that he was not a good enough shooter, playmaker or finisher to compensate for his size disadvantage, and he played only 19 more NBA games.

I strongly doubt Vander would have been a legit pro prospect had he stuck around for his senior season and played PG.

Though at least I will acknowledge we will never know -- unlike those who strangely are SURE that a fourth season at MU would have all but guaranteed Vander an NBA career.
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dgies9156

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #85 on: June 26, 2016, 08:28:10 PM »
At the risk of being a debate killjoy, what we think is immaterial. Henry went to the draft, hired an agent and was drafted in the first round.

All we should do as good Warriors is wish him well, thank him for the fun we had watching him last year and hope the pride of Rice Lake becomes an NBA superstar. It will be good for Marquette. It will be good for Rice Lake and it will be good for the State of Wisconsin.

Anything else is debating what can't be debated. I have my feelings, as I've expressed in here, but no longer do they matter (not that they ever did LOL).

Go get 'em Henry.

Herman Cain

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #86 on: June 26, 2016, 09:17:12 PM »
Vander wasn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

And he still isn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

It's funny that some simply don't get this.

As for Dominic James being such an outlier, I believe Dee Brown would have been most intriguing to NBA teams had he gone pro after his freshman year at Illinois.

Brown's best statistical season actually was when he was a junior and backcourt partner Deron Williams carried the Illini to the national title game, but Brown got hurt during workouts -- which might or might not have been a blessing in disguise because he probably wouldn't have been drafted.

He returned for his senior year and was allowed to play 35+ mpg at PG. He did fairly well for a 26-7 team and was drafted in the 2nd round (46th overall) by Utah. But the Jazz learned in Brown's first season that he was not a good enough shooter, playmaker or finisher to compensate for his size disadvantage, and he played only 19 more NBA games.

I strongly doubt Vander would have been a legit pro prospect had he stuck around for his senior season and played PG.

Though at least I will acknowledge we will never know -- unlike those who strangely are SURE that a fourth season at MU would have all but guaranteed Vander an NBA career.
There is a misguided notion that all the NBA values is potential future performance and that they discount current performance. NBA values guys who have proven they can perform at a very high level in college. My position is Vander would have performed very well as a college senior , as evidenced by his strong play his first year as a pro in the D League and overseas , and subsequent trend upward in D League the next two years. Hence , I strongly believe with a very good senior season , Vander would most likely have been drafted, probably somewhere in the middle of the second round.

All that said, would it have changed his NBA trajectory? My sense is only marginally.In that the team that drafted him had some skin in the game, and as Mr. Chicos pointed out that currency can be used with other teams for a while. 

Ultimately, Vander still has to find that one GM/Coach that believes enough in him to give him more than a cup of coffee. I am hoping that happens this year. Otherwise I think he needs to carefully review his options and consider the path that DJO is obviously enjoying. 
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2016, 10:04:04 PM »
See, I remember the Dee Brown situation differently. I thought he was actually making strides with the Jazz before he got hurt and never really recovered from it.

There's a real simple formula to become a NBA player if you're a fringe player. Be long, athletic, a good shooter and a good defender. That's why Nader got drafted, he has a 7 foot wing span and can shoot and play defense.

MU82

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #88 on: June 27, 2016, 12:07:36 AM »

All that said, would it have changed his NBA trajectory? My sense is only marginally.In that the team that drafted him had some skin in the game, and as Mr. Chicos pointed out that currency can be used with other teams for a while. 

Mr. Chicos pointed out, repeatedly, that his peeps were sure Vander would have been a first-round draft pick had Vander come back for his senior season.
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MU82

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #89 on: June 27, 2016, 12:09:21 AM »
See, I remember the Dee Brown situation differently. I thought he was actually making strides with the Jazz before he got hurt and never really recovered from it.

Dee had no chance of being a long-term NBA player. The thing that made him a good (not great) college player was his quickness. In the NBA, there are hundreds of quick players, and most are bigger and more skilled than Dee Brown.
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Tugg Speedman

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2016, 12:59:36 AM »
There is a misguided notion that all the NBA values is potential future performance and that they discount current performance. NBA values guys who have proven they can perform at a very high level in college. My position is Vander would have performed very well as a college senior , as evidenced by his strong play his first year as a pro in the D League and overseas , and subsequent trend upward in D League the next two years. Hence , I strongly believe with a very good senior season , Vander would most likely have been drafted, probably somewhere in the middle of the second round.

All that said, would it have changed his NBA trajectory? My sense is only marginally.In that the team that drafted him had some skin in the game, and as Mr. Chicos pointed out that currency can be used with other teams for a while. 

Ultimately, Vander still has to find that one GM/Coach that believes enough in him to give him more than a cup of coffee. I am hoping that happens this year. Otherwise I think he needs to carefully review his options and consider the path that DJO is obviously enjoying.

Interesting how you describe what a mid-second round player should be/do.  And I agree with you.

Now go over and look at the diamond stone thread. He was the 10th pick in the second round which sounds like a mid-second round pick. But some expect him on opening day to average 12 to 15 minutes a game and start by the end of the season.

Funny how one mid-second run pick has his ticket straight to the D league and another mid-second round pick has a ticket straight to starting.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2016, 04:35:41 AM by Heisenberg »

Tugg Speedman

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2016, 06:26:44 AM »
Vander wasn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

And he still isn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.

Given Vander's skill set, what height would he need to be to stick in the league?

wadesworld

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2016, 06:40:41 AM »
Interesting how you describe what a mid-second round player should be/do.  And I agree with you.

Now go over and look at the diamond stone thread. He was the 10th pick in the second round which sounds like a mid-second round pick. But some expect him on opening day to average 12 to 15 minutes a game and start by the end of the season.

Funny how one mid-second run pick has his ticket straight to the D league and another mid-second round pick has a ticket straight to starting.

Vander wasn't a mid 2nd round pick.
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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #93 on: June 27, 2016, 08:11:44 AM »
Vander was one of the rare few who could have theoretically improved his draft stock by returning. He had two major holes in his game, 3p shooting and pg experience. If he had come back and showed significant improvement in those areas, he would have been drafted.

However, given that he didn't show improvement in those areas in the d league, it was unlikely he was going to do that in college so he probably would've been outta luck either way.
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brewcity77

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #94 on: June 27, 2016, 08:19:08 AM »
Vander's long range shooting has improved fairly significantly. Really seems like he's just another good college player that isn't cut out for the NBA. For every good college player that gets drafted, there's 10 that don't.

At this point, drafted or undrafted is irrelevant. He could have proved it as a senior and didn't. He could have proved it in the D-League and hasn't. Hope the kid finds his niche, but at this point, it doesn't look like it's in the NBA.
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Benny B

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2016, 09:24:30 AM »
Mr. Chicos pointed out, repeatedly, that his peeps were sure Vander would have been a first-round draft pick had Vander come back for his senior season.

Far be it for me to defend anything Chicos, but I'm skeptical that even Chicos would have said this.... so Imma gonna play the old 'source?' card here if ya don't mind.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

GGGG

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2016, 09:28:44 AM »
Far be it for me to defend anything Chicos, but I'm skeptical that even Chicos would have said this.... so Imma gonna play the old 'source?' card here if ya don't mind.


Not quite as definitive but...

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51935.msg842664#msg842664

Benny B

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2016, 09:53:53 AM »

Not quite as definitive but...

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=51935.msg842664#msg842664

Ok... it's not exactly an original statement on his part, so I think we should recognize that; however, I'll concede the lunacy - whether groupthink or otherwise - was definitely there.

My only question is was Chicos hoopalooping hoopsafannin' in that thread?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU82

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2016, 10:05:04 AM »
Given Vander's skill set, what height would he need to be to stick in the league?

Height's only part of it. Strength is another. And middling ballhandling and shooting skills are others.

If you're a skinny 6-4 guy, you'd better really be able to play. I'd say the same if he were a skinny 6-6 guy.

So I stand by what I said earlier: And he still isn't a good enough basketball player to overcome his size limitations and other shortcomings.
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Badgerhater

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Re: Henry Math
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2016, 10:19:01 AM »
I will be glad when the season starts up so we can quit talking about a one-year player whose impact didn't take MU to the postseason.   He was a nice player and good luck to him in the future, but I will remember more Jake Thomas' impact on MU (Syracuse 4-point play) than I will those of Henry Ellenson and another lost season.

 

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