I miss Midwest Express Airlines

[rocket surgeon]

More lies!

How are you getting the $2.50 discount "all the time"??

easy jb, i'm not purposely putting it out there-sooorrreeeeee!! ya don't have to hard arse me over something so trivial. and we thought the "other" board was tough?  the last time i flew(march, but purchased tix in december, it was $12.50.  i stood corrected on the wifi and lumped it in with the free tv, music etc-oops!  i'm getting ready to book some flights as we speak so i promise not to make any more mistakes.  swa has worked out really FOR ME, so far.  if i find that other avenues save me money and maintain the conveniences i have had with swa, i'm going with them.  it's the beauty of living in a free society

[ChicosBailBonds]

Thinking about all the airlines I have flown over the years that are gone now

Pan Am
TWA
Eastern
Western
PSA
Air Cal
Laker
Midwest Express \ Midwest Airlines
AirTran
Aloha
America West
ATA
Braniff
Continental
Golden West
Midway
Northwest
Ozark
People Express
Piedmont
Reno Air
Ted

[GGGG]

North Central

[jsglow]

North Central

Those fabulous ducks on the tail.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Trans American

[tower912]

Chico's would never be involved with Trans-American.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Chico's would never be involved with Trans-American.

I listed ATA

American Trans Air...I took it more than a few times....the bathrooms only allowed one person at a time, which was wise.

[rocket surgeon]

I listed ATA

American Trans Air...I took it more than a few times....the bathrooms only allowed one person at a time, which was wise.

whaaaaaat?  just another challenge fer the mile high'ers

[dgies9156]

North Central

I miss Herman the Duck.

We used to call him Ruptured Duck, but the fact was that the Duck flew into more crappy weather than any other airline in history.

[dgies9156]

But .. while I get jamming as many people in to planes as possible .. I don't get the cutbacks in service, food, etc.  -- Or rather, why there isn't a Midwest Express sector.

What do warm cookies cost in bulk?  Maybe 20 cents?   How about wine?   Buy the wine in gallons and maybe that's 50 cents a cup.   Decent food, wifi .. what are we talking, $10 in cost?    The costs of that stuff is figuratively peanuts.

If your choice was SW's cattle car for $179, or Midwest Express' premium service at $189 aren't you dropping the extra Hamilton for some cookies and wine and the perception you're travelling a better class?

Isn't there a price curve where the premium airline, giving up wifi and baggage revenue, will be so full they beat the cattle car airlines in seats sold/revenue?

Why can't there be an Apple iAirline, where people overpay for prestige and minuscule service benefits?

The answer is simple. If it were a matter of providing food service to you alone, OK. But multiply the food service by 44,000 passengers a day at ORD and similar amounts at ATL, LAX, IAH, DFW etc.... Plus all the safe food handling requirements, preparation, storage, spoilage and inspection to ensure that someone did not slip a bomb into a food cart. That isn't cheap.

Now add in airline executives who the only thing they know how to do is cut costs (are you listening Jeff Smisek, aka Commander Jeff) and a public that would sell their mothers for five percent off and you end up with what we have today. Coach sets that were built for anorexic midgets, food for sale that would have embarrassed Saga back in the 1970s and baggage fees that encourage people to carry on steamer trunks to avoid paying a $25.00 checked bag fee. Oh, and don't forget that your food and beverage is served by someone who probably has taken a 50% wage cut in the last 10 years and can marginally make it on her salary.

Airlines once were classy. I flew a lot in the 1970s, before the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and it was glorious, especially when I had the fortune of meeting my Dad at ORD for the final leg home. When I am dressed in a suit for work, it still can be as most airline terminals staff and flight attendants will fuss over you. But for the average Jane and Joe, it's awful.

[ChicosBailBonds]

The answer is simple. If it were a matter of providing food service to you alone, OK. But multiply the food service by 44,000 passengers a day at ORD and similar amounts at ATL, LAX, IAH, DFW etc.... Plus all the safe food handling requirements, preparation, storage, spoilage and inspection to ensure that someone did not slip a bomb into a food cart. That isn't cheap.

Now add in airline executives who the only thing they know how to do is cut costs (are you listening Jeff Smisek, aka Commander Jeff) and a public that would sell their mothers for five percent off and you end up with what we have today. Coach sets that were built for anorexic midgets, food for sale that would have embarrassed Saga back in the 1970s and baggage fees that encourage people to carry on steamer trunks to avoid paying a $25.00 checked bag fee. Oh, and don't forget that your food and beverage is served by someone who probably has taken a 50% wage cut in the last 10 years and can marginally make it on her salary.

Airlines once were classy. I flew a lot in the 1970s, before the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and it was glorious, especially when I had the fortune of meeting my Dad at ORD for the final leg home. When I am dressed in a suit for work, it still can be as most airline terminals staff and flight attendants will fuss over you. But for the average Jane and Joe, it's awful.

Amen....stated very well.

[reinko]

The answer is simple. If it were a matter of providing food service to you alone, OK. But multiply the food service by 44,000 passengers a day at ORD and similar amounts at ATL, LAX, IAH, DFW etc.... Plus all the safe food handling requirements, preparation, storage, spoilage and inspection to ensure that someone did not slip a bomb into a food cart. That isn't cheap.

Now add in airline executives who the only thing they know how to do is cut costs (are you listening Jeff Smisek, aka Commander Jeff) and a public that would sell their mothers for five percent off and you end up with what we have today. Coach sets that were built for anorexic midgets, food for sale that would have embarrassed Saga back in the 1970s and baggage fees that encourage people to carry on steamer trunks to avoid paying a $25.00 checked bag fee. Oh, and don't forget that your food and beverage is served by someone who probably has taken a 50% wage cut in the last 10 years and can marginally make it on her salary.

Airlines once were classy. I flew a lot in the 1970s, before the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and it was glorious, especially when I had the fortune of meeting my Dad at ORD for the final leg home. When I am dressed in a suit for work, it still can be as most airline terminals staff and flight attendants will fuss over you. But for the average Jane and Joe, it's awful.

Me sorry, me can now afford ticket on flying metal tube.  Me so sad, you feel sad cuz you have to sit next me.

[jsglow]

The answer is simple. If it were a matter of providing food service to you alone, OK. But multiply the food service by 44,000 passengers a day at ORD and similar amounts at ATL, LAX, IAH, DFW etc.... Plus all the safe food handling requirements, preparation, storage, spoilage and inspection to ensure that someone did not slip a bomb into a food cart. That isn't cheap.

Now add in airline executives who the only thing they know how to do is cut costs (are you listening Jeff Smisek, aka Commander Jeff) and a public that would sell their mothers for five percent off and you end up with what we have today. Coach sets that were built for anorexic midgets, food for sale that would have embarrassed Saga back in the 1970s and baggage fees that encourage people to carry on steamer trunks to avoid paying a $25.00 checked bag fee. Oh, and don't forget that your food and beverage is served by someone who probably has taken a 50% wage cut in the last 10 years and can marginally make it on her salary.

Airlines once were classy. I flew a lot in the 1970s, before the Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 and it was glorious, especially when I had the fortune of meeting my Dad at ORD for the final leg home. When I am dressed in a suit for work, it still can be as most airline terminals staff and flight attendants will fuss over you. But for the average Jane and Joe, it's awful.

You do understand that they provided that service precisely because they WERE regulated.  Airlines had no ability to compete on price so turned to alternatives.  And nobody except the wealthy and business travelers ever flew. As always, the free market gives folks what they want.  What they want by the many millions is cheap, efficient and safe transportation from Point A to distant Point B.  That is the essence of the commercial air business, yes? 

Now if someone wants to provide upscale service, no one is stopping them.  But the problem is that demand is so low for that product that the infrastructure required to launch it is prohibitive.  You simply can't build a reasonable coverage model that way.  Midwest Express tried and ultimately failed.  9/11 might have contributed to it's demise too.  Actually, if you think about it, that service does exist at the extreme.  They're called private jets.

[dgies9156]

Me sorry, me can now afford ticket on flying metal tube.  Me so sad, you feel sad cuz you have to sit next me.

Sorry dude, you got this one wrong. What I have problems with is crappy service that treats people like cattle and strips away the human dignity we all have. I don't care who I sit next to and trust me, as a Million Mile Flyer on United, I've sat next to just about everybody. I only complain when someone's child practices field goal kicking into the back of my seat!

One of the things I abhor is the lack of legroom  and seat space on most airlines. The problem is comfort, I'll admit, but I also look at the bogus studies that suggest you can evacuate the coach section of a 777-200, 757-300 or any of the 737 variants in 90 seconds or less. That's the regulation and if an airline can do that with real people (not highly trained and taught airline employees), I'd be shocked. Oh, and by the way, deep vein thrombosis is not imaginary either.

[warriorchick]

I noticed that the people that are complaining loudest appear to do the vast majority of their air travel on their company's nickel.  One of the issues is that for domestic travel, you normally have the choice of either a coach seat or a first class seat that normally costs a multiple of the coach fare. Most companies are going to allow their employees to take first class unless it is a high-level executive (and sometimes, not even then).

I am kind of surprised that one of the legacies doesn't make a sincere effort to have a comfortable business class that has a reasonable upcharge from coach (say, 25 - 50% more).  I would hope that at least some companies would let their folks fly that class - after all, most of them don't force people to stay at the Motel 6 when they have business travel.  But at the moment the only alternative is the airplane version of the Four Seasons.  Why couldn't there be a Hilton Garden/Embassy Suites level section?

[4everwarriors]

Dat woulda been Air Tran.


BTW, I've seen enough butt cracks, sat next ta enough gross, smelly folks, and inhaled enough KFC and pizza fumes on deez cattle cars ta consider drivin' any reasonable distance, hey?

[Coleman]

Southwest sucks. Everytime I've flown SWA I am stuck next to the most obnoxious people on the planet. The experience of flying is largely the people you are stuck next to for hours.

Of the airlines I've actually flown in the past 10 years....

Lufthansa > Aer Lingus > Virgin Atlantic > Virgin America > Alaska > Delta > American > United > Southwest

Unfortunately for work I travel United, which is the 2nd-worst circle of hell.

[Coleman]

I noticed that the people that are complaining loudest appear to do the vast majority of their air travel on their company's nickel.  One of the issues is that for domestic travel, you normally have the choice of either a coach seat or a first class seat that normally costs a multiple of the coach fare. Most companies are going to allow their employees to take first class unless it is a high-level executive (and sometimes, not even then).

I am kind of surprised that one of the legacies doesn't make a sincere effort to have a comfortable business class that has a reasonable upcharge from coach (say, 25 - 50% more).  I would hope that at least some companies would let their folks fly that class - after all, most of them don't force people to stay at the Motel 6 when they have business travel.  But at the moment the only alternative is the airplane version of the Four Seasons.  Why couldn't there be a Hilton Garden/Embassy Suites level section?

Legacy intercontinental flight already has 3 classes (coach, business, and first).

I think that's what they've tried to do domestically with "Economy Plus," which is just basically economy class plus more leg room, but the differentiation isn't enough.

I think the biggest barrier is that there not a market to support this. Most companies only pay their employees to fly coach on domestic flights. I don't think any company would be able to justify spending another 25%-50% for a domestic flight. Most intercontinental flights you will get business class covered by your employer.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Sorry dude, you got this one wrong. What I have problems with is crappy service that treats people like cattle and strips away the human dignity we all have. I don't care who I sit next to and trust me, as a Million Mile Flyer on United, I've sat next to just about everybody. I only complain when someone's child practices field goal kicking into the back of my seat!

One of the things I abhor is the lack of legroom  and seat space on most airlines. The problem is comfort, I'll admit, but I also look at the bogus studies that suggest you can evacuate the coach section of a 777-200, 757-300 or any of the 737 variants in 90 seconds or less. That's the regulation and if an airline can do that with real people (not highly trained and taught airline employees), I'd be shocked. Oh, and by the way, deep vein thrombosis is not imaginary either.

My uncle won a bid to go to Seattle to sit on the last plane taken by Continental with their livery.  I don't know how many miles he had with Continental, but crazy number.  He has some very choice words about Jeff Smisek as well as you did.

Definitely a face to the bottom, but that the market has spoken.

[warriorchick]

Legacy intercontinental flight already has 3 classes (coach, business, and first).

I think that's what they've tried to do domestically with "Economy Plus," which is just basically economy class plus more leg room, but the differentiation isn't enough.

I think the biggest barrier is that there not a market to support this. Most companies only pay their employees to fly coach on domestic flights. I don't think any company would be able to justify spending another 25%-50% for a domestic flight. Most intercontinental flights you will get business class covered by your employer.

Has anyone actually studied it?  Why is a company willing to spend and extra $300/week to put an employee in a mid-range hotel instead of the Red Roof?  Would that same company be willing to spend an extra $100-$200 so that they could have a more pleasant flight?  Maybe so. I am not sure anyone has given them the option on a wide scale.

[jesmu84]

http://devour.com/video/why-flying-is-so-expensive/

[GGGG]

http://devour.com/video/why-flying-is-so-expensive/

Counter point.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/

[reinko]

Sorry dude, you got this one wrong. What I have problems with is crappy service that treats people like cattle and strips away the human dignity we all have. I don't care who I sit next to and trust me, as a Million Mile Flyer on United, I've sat next to just about everybody. I only complain when someone's child practices field goal kicking into the back of my seat!

One of the things I abhor is the lack of legroom  and seat space on most airlines. The problem is comfort, I'll admit, but I also look at the bogus studies that suggest you can evacuate the coach section of a 777-200, 757-300 or any of the 737 variants in 90 seconds or less. That's the regulation and if an airline can do that with real people (not highly trained and taught airline employees), I'd be shocked. Oh, and by the way, deep vein thrombosis is not imaginary either.

Mea culpa. I did take another way of something becoming affordable for the masses, then all of sudden those who could always afford it feeling slighted or jilted.

Cheers

[ChicosBailBonds]

http://devour.com/video/why-flying-is-so-expensive/

Pretty good analysis.  I think they missed a few, but the general point is there. 

[Coleman]

Has anyone actually studied it?  Why is a company willing to spend and extra $300/week to put an employee in a mid-range hotel instead of the Red Roof?  Would that same company be willing to spend an extra $100-$200 so that they could have a more pleasant flight?  Maybe so. I am not sure anyone has given them the option on a wide scale.

I imagine it has been studied, since airlines are always tweaking their cost structure (for example, the always changing fee structure), but I can't say for certain. What I can say is that my company (Fortune 500) would never support anything more than coach for a domestic fare. They don't even cover economy plus. I usually cover the "upgrade" on my own dime.

As for hotels, we have preferred pricing with Hilton brands, but you best book a Hampton Inn if it is available. Most corporations don't just spring for the nicest hotels anymore.

Corporate travel is not as glitzy as it used to be. Cost cutting measures from the recession have not been rescinded.