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Author Topic: Vander Summer League  (Read 49155 times)

GGGG

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2016, 02:19:09 PM »
It spoke that he was a young and immature kid.  Like a lot of them are.

He continued to have similar problems as he entered college.  A lot of them do.

He matured and became a leader by his junior year.  He learned from his mistakes and grew.  Just what college is supposed to do. 

I have mentioned this before, but I have a family member that knew Vander pretty well in school and said that he was  very nice but immature when he got to school.  And that even after he grew and became a star as a junior, he would still see this family member across campus and go over to talk to him.  Never "big timed" him.  I have always pulled for him and will continue to do so.

wadesworld

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2016, 02:20:23 PM »
  i'm not really suggesting anything except that i believe he's shown that he's capable and then some in the d-league.  i'm just another MU guy pulling for another MU guy to make it to the show, that's all.  the brief cups of coffee he's had on the big stage were hardly enough for him to show his stuff.  yes, i realize he's had many eyes on him and they obviously are not impressed enough to give him a full contract. 

   BUT, what does a guy have to do in the d-league to be worthy?  average 30 ppg?  35?  8reb/game? 10?  2 turnovers/game, 3?  assists?  seriously, what is the magic number or intangible, or combination they look for?  i'll guarantee you that there are probably quite a few guys in the NBA that vander would make them look silly one on one

    fwiw, i wasn't a big fan of vanders coming out of h.s as one of his first comments were that he was robbed of the state player of the year award.  it spoke volumes...

 

Not get to the D League is what they have to do.

And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever.  Basketball isn't played one on one.  It's played with 8 other people on the court.
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rocket surgeon

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2016, 02:40:15 PM »
Not get to the D League is what they have to do.

And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever.  Basketball isn't played one on one.  It's played with 8 other people on the court.

i'm sure you are a nice, thoughtful and wise fellow and all, but i am fully aware of how many guys are on the floor at one time.  however, for you to say basketball isn't played one on one is partially correct.  ever see the teams clear out and allow the one one one?  i'm sure you've seen teams try to pick and roll to create mis-matches?  i have.  then they go ONE ON ONE.  yes, i've also seen double and triple teaming. 

  the one on one of many ways, but is a very important one that coaches use to evaluate talent. no?

i wasn't using it as an argument, just a subjective attitude.  hard to prove? yes, but i guess it's just another way to say that i think vander should be in the NBA, that's all,  no biggie
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MUHoopsFan2

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2016, 06:09:00 AM »
It baffles me why he is not gotten a look if Seth Curry and Jimmer Freddette have.

There has to be something that we don't see that they do not like...yet. Because I can't see why he is not in NBA. Especially up with a team like the Lakers....

I am sure Vander will get a look this Summer and Fall...But there has to be some thing they are not showing him. Whether it is basketball related or otherwise. It just doesn't add up.

Maybe it is a discipline, [ie, practice, coachability, leadership, etc] It surely is not just his play. He has improved his range, his finish on contact,...but looking at him I would say that I still do not like the jumper and his mechanics on his shot in the NBA to be consistent.

He still drifts to one side and does not line his body up squarely like Freddette and Curry...but they are not as explosive as Vander is. We'll see 
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 06:15:22 AM by MUHoopsFan2 »

MUHoopsFan2

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2016, 06:20:58 AM »
There is a possibility if he stayed he would have been a late second round pick which may have given him slightly more opportunity in that a team would have been slightly more invested in his success.

Vander has a great attitude and keeps plugging away. I really respect that in him.
No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.

Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.

Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.

Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.

GGGG

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2016, 07:51:22 AM »
No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.

Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.

Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.

Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.


Why would Vander have been a first round pick?  How would his game have improved enough?  Why hasn't that improvement occurred over the past three seasons?

And to me it's obvious why he hasn't stuck. He isn't consistent enough as a shooter or ball handler. Especially for his size.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2016, 09:57:09 AM »
No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.

Not a late second rounder. He would have gone as high as Butler did the last pick of the first round when he came out.

Wesley Matthews was not drafted at all. But Vander would have been the leader on that team and if he played like he was capable would have come off his rookie deal by now.

Jamil Wilson is not playing off that team either but Jae Crowder is. Just goes to show you.

A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick.  When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.

GGGG

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2016, 10:02:57 AM »
A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick.  When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.


In retrospect, they were wrong. 

MU82

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2016, 10:03:09 AM »
No no no! He comes back he is a late first round pick and in the league right now....No doubt in my mind.

That's an awful lot of certainty for what is pretty much a hopeful, wild guess.
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MerrittsMustache

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2016, 10:12:18 AM »
A number of draft experts agree with you. At worst, he's a second round pick.  When you get drafted, you get more opportunities for that cup of coffee.

No. At worst, he goes undrafted again, loses a year of salary and is right where he is today.

As I posted before but you ignored...

Of the 25 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2013 NBA Draft, only 8 are currently on NBA rosters.

Of the Undrafted players from the 2013 NBA Draft, 7 are currently on NBA rosters.


Of the 24 non-international 2nd Round picks in the 2014 NBA Draft, only 11 are currently on NBA rosters.

Of the Undrafted players from the 2014 NBA Draft, 10 are currently on NBA rosters.

IOW, there are 17 undrafted players from those classes in the NBA and 30 second round picks out of the NBA. How could that be? No 2nd, 3rd and 4th chances for those guys?


ADDITIONAL NOTE: 32 players were called up from the D-League in 2015-16. 18 of them were Undrafted, 9 were former 2nd Rounders and 5 were former 1st Rounders.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 10:19:08 AM by MerrittsMustache »

Marcus92

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2016, 04:37:46 PM »
ADDITIONAL NOTE: 32 players were called up from the D-League in 2015-16. 18 of them were Undrafted, 9 were former 2nd Rounders and 5 were former 1st Rounders.

Great information here. Thanks for sharing.

It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.

6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.

At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.

So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).

I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
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brewcity77

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2016, 04:56:47 PM »
Great information here. Thanks for sharing.

It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.

6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.

At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.

So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).

I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.

I think this is an excellent assessment of why Vander hasn't latched on anywhere. The kid is a good basketball player, good enough to be a stud at the D-League level and probably good enough to be a top player in Europe. He's just not quite at the level of the NBA guys. There's nothing wrong with that, there's probably only about 500-600 people on the planet that play enough games in a given year to be considered NBA regulars (30 teams, 15 players each, and more to cover injuries and such) and he's just below that group.

Just hope he realizes it while he still has good years left where he can maximize overseas earnings, because after 3 full seasons, if they haven't seen it yet, it's probably not there.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2016, 06:38:37 PM »
Great information here. Thanks for sharing.

It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.

6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.

At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.

So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).

I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.
All the points made above are accurate. I still think there may be one coach out there who will believe in the kid. I think if he gets one more chance it will be a real one and he will make the most of it. It is worth hanging around another year in the D League to find out. After that he should have some pretty good foreign options.
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Marcus92

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2016, 10:27:46 PM »
All the points made above are accurate. I still think there may be one coach out there who will believe in the kid. I think if he gets one more chance it will be a real one and he will make the most of it. It is worth hanging around another year in the D League to find out. After that he should have some pretty good foreign options.

Beyond his athletic talent, Vander is incredibly focused and motivated. He's done everything possible to improve his game. He plays hard. He's shown that he's willing to play anywhere for his shot — in his first year as a pro, he was part of 8 different team rosters. The odds are likely against him at this point. But if he doesn't make his career in the NBA, it won't be for lack of effort.
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Babybluejeans

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #39 on: June 01, 2016, 11:33:52 AM »
Great information here. Thanks for sharing.

It's not as though Vander hasn't had his opportunities. He's played for multiple teams in the NBA summer league over the past 3 years, seeing court time during the regular season with Boston and L.A. Blue is quick, athletic and can score in a variety of ways. But I'm not sure that's enough.

6-4 is good size to play the point, but scouts have continually questioned his handle. Last year, Vander had the lowest turnover percentage of his D-League career — but he wasn't the team's primary ball handler. (Josh Magette dished out more than twice as many assists.) After 3 years, I don't see backup point guard as his ticket to the NBA.

At the two spot, he's undersized (between 6-5 and 6-6 is the NBA average) and an average perimeter shooter at best. Last year, the league average for 3-point shooting was 35.4% — with 24 players who qualified among the league leaders shooting 40% or better. Vander is nowhere near that level, shooting just 33.0% from 3-point range last season in the D-League.

So teams aren't going to bring Vander off the bench to bring the ball up the court or as a long-distance sniper. The next near-universal need: a defensive stopper who can defend multiple positions. Again, at just 6-4, Vander doesn't have the length to defend guards like J.R. Smith (6-6), Klay Thompson (6-7) or Kyle Korver (6-7) — let alone forwards like Harrison Barnes (6-8) or Kevin Durant (6-9).

I hope Vander makes it. But he turns 24 this summer and is fighting an uphill battle against younger competition. All things considered, I think he'll find his best opportunity overseas.

Exactly. This is why it didn't matter whether Vander left after junior or senior year at MU. The factors that have hitherto prevented him from breaking into the NBA would not have been salved by staying. Now, I wish he had stayed because another year at Marquette would have been far more rewarding to us fans than him scrapping away in the D-league, but I don't blame him for the choice he made. The last three years is proof that this was going to be the outcome in any event.

WellsstreetWanderer

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #40 on: June 01, 2016, 12:19:43 PM »
Someone has to be telling him these things about his shortcomings and the odds of him making it to a roster.
Whatever his future success will be Europe or the NBA , I wish him much success.

77ncaachamps

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #41 on: June 01, 2016, 07:47:52 PM »
nm
SS Marquette

KampusFoods

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #42 on: June 02, 2016, 10:17:32 AM »

GGGG

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #43 on: June 02, 2016, 10:34:10 AM »
what does this mean


Since you can't delete posts on Scoop if you aren't a moderator, people edit their post with "nm" (never mind) if they no long want to say something they previously posted.

MU82

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #44 on: June 02, 2016, 03:44:23 PM »
And speaking of guys facing a tough road after leaving college early, Diamond Stone worked out for the Hornets and says he never planned to go back to college.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nba/charlotte-hornets/article81370617.html#emlnl=todays-headlines_newsletter

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brandx

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #45 on: June 02, 2016, 04:22:59 PM »
Not get to the D League is what they have to do.

And the second bolded line is one of the dumbest arguments ever.  Basketball isn't played one on one.  It's played with 8 other people on the court.

Wades, some people think the d-league is like the minors in baseball. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

wadesworld

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #46 on: June 02, 2016, 04:29:19 PM »
Wades, some people think the d-league is like the minors in baseball. Couldn't be farther from the truth.

Exactly.
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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #47 on: June 02, 2016, 06:29:47 PM »
Exactly. This is why it didn't matter whether Vander left after junior or senior year at MU. The factors that have hitherto prevented him from breaking into the NBA would not have been salved by staying. Now, I wish he had stayed because another year at Marquette would have been far more rewarding to us fans than him scrapping away in the D-league, but I don't blame him for the choice he made. The last three years is proof that this was going to be the outcome in any event.

Could not disagree more and a number of scouts have convinced me of that case.  When you are drafted, which he would have been, you are given much more latitude and opportunities to make it in the league.  The homework has been done, the vetting as a player has been done.  You simply get more looks and opportunities when you are drafted, and so it absolutely makes a difference if he left junior or senior year, because senior year would have meant being drafted and that = more opportunities to stick in the league.  It doesn't guarantee he would, nothing does, but the opportunities are more prevalent. 

jesmu84

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #48 on: June 02, 2016, 06:45:02 PM »
Could not disagree more and a number of scouts have convinced me of that case.  When you are drafted, which he would have been, you are given much more latitude and opportunities to make it in the league.  The homework has been done, the vetting as a player has been done.  You simply get more looks and opportunities when you are drafted, and so it absolutely makes a difference if he left junior or senior year, because senior year would have meant being drafted and that = more opportunities to stick in the league.  It doesn't guarantee he would, nothing does, but the opportunities are more prevalent.

You keep stating this and presenting it as fact. And it's just not. He MAY have been drafted (I, personally, don't think he would have been). There's no certainty.

And, again, he would have had to have made a similar jump in talent/ability from junior to senior as he did from sophomore to junior. Certainly no guarantee of that happening either.

I do agree with you on a drafted player getting more chances/looks than an undrafted though.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Vander Summer League
« Reply #49 on: June 02, 2016, 06:56:10 PM »
You keep stating this and presenting it as fact. And it's just not. He MAY have been drafted (I, personally, don't think he would have been). There's no certainty.

And, again, he would have had to have made a similar jump in talent/ability from junior to senior as he did from sophomore to junior. Certainly no guarantee of that happening either.

I do agree with you on a drafted player getting more chances/looks than an undrafted though.

Let me be clear, the scouts I have dealt with....most of them at Draft Express and one that is not, all said he would be drafted the next year in their opinion.  You're correct, it is an opinion...an opinion of experts in their field, but anything could have happened.  That is their opinion, an educated opinion, which I'm passing along. 

There was a reason why most draft experts said he should REMAIN in college.  That was their educated opinion. 

I don't think I'm stating it as fact, but fair enough.  In my opinion, and the opinion of some scouts, he should have stayed in school and would have been drafted the following year.....is that better?