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Author Topic: Unfufilled potential of MU players  (Read 19343 times)

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2016, 04:10:59 PM »
That article also talks about Fulce sticking with Marquette "despite Tom Crean leaving unexpectedly for Indiana". Tom Crean had nothing to do with Fulce coming to MU - as long as Buzz was here he was too. Not Rosiak's best job of reporting.

I know Kentucky was down during that period but I'd still be surprised if they really offered a guy not considered a top 30 Juco - but maybe that's the kind of thing that made Gillespie such a bust.

Rosiak was quoting Butler directly. So unless Jimmy was lying (which is possible, he wouldn't be the first recruit to fib about his offer list), he had the offer. There was also a lot of other articles as well, that was just the first one I found. I think this is more of a case of sometimes ratings get it really really wrong. But looking at who is recruiting a kid will usually give you a good idea of how good the kid is.
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Milwarriorkee

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2016, 04:15:00 PM »
Krunti Hester.

DegenerateDish

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2016, 04:47:46 PM »
I really want to say Scott Merritt, I know the numbers go against that though. I was actually surprised where he stood on MU's all time lists. Always felt like he was more of a complimentary player than someone you game planned against. He was really hyped up as a top 50 national recruit coming into Marquette, and not his fault that he was a high profile recruit coming in after the very end of the bad Deane years.

Herman Cain

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2016, 05:58:14 PM »
He was the first that came to mind for me. Turned out to be a decent player, but not nearly as good as expected.

Al looked for any excuse to not play freshmen and Toone gave him ample reasons.

I think he is comparable to Jamil, where you see the talent, but that talent never transferred to the production that it should have.
I saw Toone all the way through high school and then on to MU. Toone was an outright thug. The Looney Tunes knickname had a basis in reality.  He had a bad drug problem. His senior year he actually lived up to his potential, 18.7 ,6.7  and was drafted number 37. Unfortunately, drugs are not a good thing.  A real talent wasted.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19870317&id=VkEgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wn4EAAAAIBAJ&pg=5271,620387&hl=en

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http://www.upi.com/Archives/1987/08/14/Former-Marquette-basketball-star-Bernard-Toone-has-been-arrested/1052555912000/

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keefe

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2016, 06:09:00 PM »
Doc did not live up to expectations IMO. There is a long list of guys that could be listed but he jumps out as #1 to me. He was nice player at MU but always left me wanting more.
[/quote

C'mon, Joe. That one shot against Notre Dame made it all worthwhile.

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2016, 10:34:05 PM »
That article also talks about Fulce sticking with Marquette "despite Tom Crean leaving unexpectedly for Indiana". Tom Crean had nothing to do with Fulce coming to MU - as long as Buzz was here he was too. Not Rosiak's best job of reporting.

I know Kentucky was down during that period but I'd still be surprised if they really offered a guy not considered a top 30 Juco - but maybe that's the kind of thing that made Gillespie such a bust.

So you just going to admit you're wrong or not?

MU82

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2016, 10:38:13 PM »
Doc did not live up to expectations IMO. There is a long list of guys that could be listed but he jumps out as #1 to me. He was nice player at MU but always left me wanting more.
[/quote

C'mon, Joe. That one shot against Notre Dame made it all worthwhile.

The look on the faces of Digger and Tripucka was priceless.

My all-time favorite Marquette shot.

I know the Whitehead shot was bigger, obviously. And Vander's shots against both St. John's and Davidson. And Junior's shot against UConn was arguably bigger. And probably others I'm not thinking of.

But I was at that game and watching that shot go in, and the celebration that ensued ... well, that's a memory I'll hold until they turn me to ashes and then sprinkle me over the ocean in Kauai!
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Goose

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2016, 05:50:56 AM »
Keefe

No doubt Doc's game winner against ND is an all time great moment. Plus his dunk against Wake Forest is top 5 dunk in school history.

brewcity77

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2016, 05:59:47 AM »
Surprised Junior hasn't really been mentioned. I know there are varying opinions of him, but for a guy right around the top-50 range, I expected a lot more. He was an adequate fifth starter, but I always expected more from him as a shooter, scorer, and defender. Just a very average player, despite his rankings coming in.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2016, 09:01:48 AM »
So you just going to admit you're wrong or not?

If you really think that Jimmy came to MU sight unseen and didn't even visit his "dream school" UK with a FIRM offer in his pocket from them so be it. Regardless of what's been reported I don't.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2016, 09:40:51 AM »
Surprised Junior hasn't really been mentioned. I know there are varying opinions of him, but for a guy right around the top-50 range, I expected a lot more. He was an adequate fifth starter, but I always expected more from him as a shooter, scorer, and defender. Just a very average player, despite his rankings coming in.

Hard to keep those expectations when he tore his ACL almost the minute he set foot on campus.  I do agree though that he could've/should've been way better. 
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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2016, 09:56:24 AM »
If you really think that Jimmy came to MU sight unseen and didn't even visit his "dream school" UK with a FIRM offer in his pocket from them so be it. Regardless of what's been reported I don't.

So Jimmy lied about his offer list.
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Goose

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2016, 11:02:37 AM »
Toone was a rare talent and could have been so much better. That said, a big game in '77 NCAA against WF and great senior year made up for it. He could have been really, really special.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2016, 12:53:09 PM »
So Jimmy lied about his offer list.

Look, there are offers and then there are offers. Right now there are probably at least 10 guys whom MU has "offered" for 2017. Guess what? we wouldn't/couldn't take all of them.

I'm not saying JFB is lying - I never said that - but I would seriously doubt if Kentucky's "offer" was the unconditional, you're our guy type. Do you think it would be reasonable for a kid to sign with MU sight unseen while eschewing even a visit to his "dream school" (who also happened to be a blue blood) with a plane ticket and a firm offer in hand? Buzz was a wizard and I'm his biggest backer but even I don't think he could pull off something like that.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2016, 01:12:30 PM »
Look, there are offers and then there are offers. Right now there are probably at least 10 guys whom MU has "offered" for 2017. Guess what? we wouldn't/couldn't take all of them.

I'm not saying JFB is lying - I never said that - but I would seriously doubt if Kentucky's "offer" was the unconditional, you're our guy type. Do you think it would be reasonable for a kid to sign with MU sight unseen while eschewing even a visit to his "dream school" (who also happened to be a blue blood) with a plane ticket and a firm offer in hand? Buzz was a wizard and I'm his biggest backer but even I don't think he could pull off something like that.

I'm just trying to clarify. Your original post was bashing Chicos for insisting that Kentucky had offered him. You were provided evidence to the contrary. Now you are trying to argue over the definition of an offer. Is it so hard to just say "I was wrong, Jimmy was offered by Kentucky. I'm not sure it was an unconditional offer. But there was some sort of offer."
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2016, 01:36:56 PM »
ESPN, like Scoop, is trying to fill an off season lull with:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/15447349/top-25-unfulfilled-potential-reality-falls-spectacularly-short-expectations

It makes for a good topic here. Recalling the many high expectations among our recruits/players...who;

1) fell short of expectations:
William Gates,


I'm not sure what people's expectations of Gates were after he tore up his knee in high school, back when ACL's were often career ending injuries. Plus, his recruitment landed Amal McCaskill (maybe MU's all time overachiever in terms of expectations).
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Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2016, 02:05:34 PM »
Well considering Buzz had worked under the then KY coach and that coach's problems that would come to light perhaps Jimmy passed on KY after hearing about said problems.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2016, 02:08:37 PM »
I'm just trying to clarify. Your original post was bashing Chicos for insisting that Kentucky had offered him. You were provided evidence to the contrary. Now you are trying to argue over the definition of an offer. Is it so hard to just say "I was wrong, Jimmy was offered by Kentucky. I'm not sure it was an unconditional offer. But there was some sort of offer."

Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.

Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.

Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.






TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2016, 02:25:36 PM »
Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.

Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.

Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.

So either Jimmy (and all those other sources) is lying or you were wrong. Got it.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2016, 03:12:30 PM »
So either Jimmy (and all those other sources) is lying or you were wrong. Got it.

How many times have you read "so and so chose xyz university over abc U., def U. and Marquette" KNOWING that Marquette wasn't offering so and so?

But since nuance/context is unimportant to you, either Jimmy and all those other sources is (sic) lying or I am wrong. There you go.

bilsu

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2016, 03:28:48 PM »
I really want to say Scott Merritt, I know the numbers go against that though. I was actually surprised where he stood on MU's all time lists. Always felt like he was more of a complimentary player than someone you game planned against. He was really hyped up as a top 50 national recruit coming into Marquette, and not his fault that he was a high profile recruit coming in after the very end of the bad Deane years.
Scott Merritt was another player that had a very good freshmen season and then his numbers tailed off a bit. The reason for the tail off is that he switch from player center to power forward.
Rivers, James and Merritt are the three players I can think of who did not have a great statistical improvement from their freshmen year to their last year.

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2016, 03:59:39 PM »
Here's my clarification for you. Jimmy Butler was a qualifier out of high school but chose a junior college because D1 teams weren't interested. After his freshman year in JC, 247 Sports rated him a 2*, the 127th best junior college player - which is roughly equivalent to the 300-500th ranked high schooler. He was an April signee, and the only reason Buzz found out about him was because he played with Joe Fulce.

Now, Fulce (and Buzz) also knew Billy Gillespie (he was Buzz's boss at A+M when Williams first recruited Joe). He was a mess (an alcoholic) at Kentucky for less than 2 years before he was fired. If during that time he really gave Jimmy a firm offer to his dream school and Jimmy turned it down to accept at scholarship at a much, much lower profile school in a cold weather city without so much as a visit then I stand corrected and apologize. But I don't believe that "if" is likely.

Regardless, my point was that Jimmy was not a hot ticket out of high school or after his first year at junior college. That's a fact, Kentucky or no Kentucky.







Why did he also have offers from Clemson, Mississippi State, Iowa State and Minnesota? He had an offer from Mississippi State out of high school, but he ended up in JUCO because they ran out of scholarships.

He visited Mississippi State and Iowa State while at Tyler.

Jimmy had some ridiculously monster JUCO games while everyone was looking at Fulce. Buzz wasn't the only one that saw the potential, even though that's the narrative.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2016, 04:27:11 PM »
As good as Glenn Rivers was, he didn't reach his potential at Marquette. His game was muted by both Raymonds and Majerus. He ended up being only a second-round draft pick despite his talent, but then realized his potential during a good, long pro career.

There is much more to the story with Doc's struggles at MU his junior year.  Remember that he was picked as a first team all-american in 1982 and preseason all-american going into 1983.

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oldwarrior81

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2016, 05:07:59 PM »
and even more complications when you consider Marotta's relationship with the girl and what that did to team chemistry.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Unfufilled potential of MU players
« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2016, 07:46:46 PM »
Why did he also have offers from Clemson, Mississippi State, Iowa State and Minnesota? He had an offer from Mississippi State out of high school, but he ended up in JUCO because they ran out of scholarships.

He visited Mississippi State and Iowa State while at Tyler.

Jimmy had some ridiculously monster JUCO games while everyone was looking at Fulce. Buzz wasn't the only one that saw the potential, even though that's the narrative.

Jimmy averaged 18.7 points and 7+ rebounds in JC and did have at least one (43 points) monster game, maybe more. but he wasn't a top 50 JC guy. I never said he wasn't good. But if I told you my final 5 were Iowa State, Clemson, Mississippi State, Marquette (who found him because they were recruiting Fulce) and Kentucky wouldn't you say one those schools didn't "fit" with the rest?

 

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