1 Weekend 2 Visits

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I agree that Wally being cut is a moral non-issue. But as a 2011 grad I could not disagree with this post more.

Fair enough. Likely what you make of it / went to school for. 

I think Marquette strives to make their students the best people they can be - "be the difference".  I think that is good, and I think they do a good job of it. But the people that think Marquette shouldn't cut a basketball player because the school and its graduates should be held to a higher moral standard that need to get off their high horse. 

[Groin_pull]

Seems like many of you share the same opinion. Which you don't get to pile on if/when UW, Louisville, Syracuse, etc. drop a player.

Better be no mention of how MU does things differently. Don't get to play the mortal superiority card anymore.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You are of course free to your own opinion.  But the fact is, cuts happened with Buzz and Crean too - under Jesuit presidents.  I don't know why people are treating this one so differently.

He has a famous brother.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Seems like many of you share the same opinion. Which you don't get to pile on if/when UW, Louisville, Syracuse, etc. drop a player.

Better be no mention of how MU does things differently. Don't get to play the mortal superiority card anymore.

Outside of some ribbing of UW mostly due to UW fans pretending to have the moral high-ground - I have not noticed anyone really putting up a stink about a Louisville or Syracuse transfer. 

Now being outraged when it is exposed that the program is paying for hookers, having criminal activity, setting up false classes or putting punitive restrictions on a transfer release...that I have seen.

I think Rocky is right -- odd that people seem to care about this one based on what has occurred here and elsewhere pretty regularly.

[THRILLHO]

You are of course free to your own opinion.  But the fact is, cuts happened with Buzz and Crean too - under Jesuit presidents.  I don't know why people are treating this one so differently.

Because exactly what was said above by Brew and in many other places: Wally is faced with really no choice. If Sandy or Sacar were run off I would be reacting the way everyone else is, and the way I reacted when Mbao and Jamail and others were run off. They could go down a level and get more playing time and essentially get re-recruited. But Wally doesn't have the option to transfer and play again, so his college career was essentially ended for him, when he is clearly good enough to have played somewhere.

[rocky_warrior]

Wally is faced with really no choice.

Are you positive that's a fact?  Did he have a choice to make a commitment to basketball and drop track? 

I don't know for sure, but I've seen no facts to indicate he had no choice. 

[THRILLHO]

Are you positive that's a fact?  Did he have a choice to make a commitment to basketball and drop track? 

I don't know for sure, but I've seen no facts to indicate he had no choice.

No I don't know that -- but I don't think that's a real choice. I understand that when he transferred they said something to the effect of he'd participate in track but would prioritize basketball during basketball season. Which I believe is why he did indoor track last year but not this year. So what changed this year? Did they raise the expectations for him? If so then you're back to my original point (changing the terms of his involvement and leaving him without a real choice). Or did his summer commitment change because of possible olympic involvement? In which case I would also find it hard to defend Wojo, but this would be subject to their discussions. Do you think during his recruitment, if Wally said, if I want to take a shot at the olympics will I have to leave the team, Wojo would say yes? Or do you think that they never had that discussion?

I acknowledge that facts are hard to come by and speculation is rampant, and obviously if revealed facts came out one way I would change my opinion, but I refuse to go along with the people saying "it doesn't matter what happens, this is how it is and we should like it." Your silence or approval is what makes it that way.

[avid1010]

Become a fan of middle school basketball then.  Because that's the last place this perfect world in which everyone gets to play and no gets cut ends.  The fact that some people don't understand this is what is hilarious.

another ridiculous post.  so you are saying that lying to college kids (who make a sh!t ton of money for universities) is acceptable because everyone does it to win and they get a free education while the coach allows for it?  what a joke.  i wouldn't raise my kid like that, and i certainly wouldn't treat those that work for me like that.  not everyone gets to play, and if they don't get to play and want to leave, so be it...but something tells me that when coaches are recruiting these kids they aren't telling them that if they can do better they're going to show them the door.  now there's plenty that a kid can do to earn his way out of a scholarship, but if the kid is doing everything right, giving him the boot is ridiculous. 

the fact that you think you understand the cut-throat world of college hoops and no one else does is hilarious.  the fact that you can't understand that misleading kids in likely the biggest decision of their life is hilarious. 

[4everwarriors]

Da door swings both ways, hey?

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

another ridiculous post.  so you are saying that lying to college kids (who make a sh!t ton of money for universities) is acceptable because everyone does it to win and they get a free education while the coach allows for it?  what a joke.  i wouldn't raise my kid like that, and i certainly wouldn't treat those that work for me like that.  not everyone gets to play, and if they don't get to play and want to leave, so be it...but something tells me that when coaches are recruiting these kids they aren't telling them that if they can do better they're going to show them the door.  now there's plenty that a kid can do to earn his way out of a scholarship, but if the kid is doing everything right, giving him the boot is ridiculous. 

the fact that you think you understand the cut-throat world of college hoops and no one else does is hilarious.  the fact that you can't understand that misleading kids in likely the biggest decision of their life is hilarious.

Misleading kids? Things change.  Maybe Wojo thought they'd develop into a difference maker.  Back when these scholarships were offered, MU was in a vastly different place and had many spots to fill. Now? Not so much. 

You can believe and think whatever you'd like - I don't care. I am just glad the guy running the program I cheer for doesn't think the same way.

[avid1010]

Misleading kids? Things change.  Maybe Wojo thought they'd develop into a difference maker.  Back when these scholarships were offered, MU was in a vastly different place and had many spots to fill. Now? Not so much. 

You can believe and think whatever you'd like - I don't care. I am just glad the guy running the program I cheer for doesn't think the same way.

no one is arguing that "things change."  no one is arguing that the best players shouldn't get the minutes.  my post stated that if the kid did everything asked of him, he shouldn't have his scholarship removed.  if wally came to MU, did everything asked of him, and was cut simply because hank is gone...that's bs.  if wally told wojo ahead of time that he couldn't commit to MU bball 100% because of track, and wojo said ok, then later changed his mind...that's bs.  if wally originally committed to bball 100%, and later asked for some flexibility from bball for track, and wojo said no, i'm good with that. 

if a coach walks in a recruits house, tells him he will have a great career at MU if he gives his all, the kid gives his all, but the coach finds what might be a better player and cuts the kid...that's bs.  if the coach says you have to earn every minute, and you're replaceable any year for a better recruit...fair enough. 

and to 4ever's point...the door does swing both ways...but not in an equal manner.  kids have to sit out, transfer restrictions can be applied, etc...  overall, the adults who profit off the game are in a much more advantageous position, and that is also bs.  no one is advocating for the rights of the kids.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

no one is arguing that "things change."  no one is arguing that the best players shouldn't get the minutes.  my post stated that if the kid did everything asked of him, he shouldn't have his scholarship removed.  if wally came to MU, did everything asked of him, and was cut simply because hank is gone...that's bs.  if wally told wojo ahead of time that he couldn't commit to MU bball 100% because of track, and wojo said ok, then later changed his mind...that's bs.  if wally asked for some flexibility from bball for track, and wojo said no, i'm good with that. 

if a coach walks in a recruits house, tells him he will have a great career at MU if he gives his all, the kid gives his all, but the coach finds what might be a better player and cuts the kid...that's bs.

and to 4ever's point...the door does swing both ways...but not in an equal manner.  kids have to sit out, transfer restrictions can be applied, etc...  overall, the adults who profit off the game are in a much more advantageous position, and that is also bs.  no one is advocating for the rights of the kids.

I get where you're coming from - I just don't agree.  The coaches job is to field the best team possible.  By your measure, if any college program brings in a project, and he doesn't pan out - they have to hold onto that player for 4 seasons just because they gave them a scholarship in year one.  You may not want to believe it, but scholarships are one year deals.  The player may give it his all in year one (or however many years) but if he just isn't as good as the coach hoped, they should have the right to move on (both the player and coach). 

This isn't an MU issue. This is an issue in all of college athletics.  This happens to players EVERY SINGLE day across college sports, high school sports, summer travel teams, etc., etc. Hell, it happened to me.  I transferred to a private HS because I was begged to by a coach and was promised things.  I lived and breathed this particular sport my entire life leading up to transferring to this HS for the sole reason of playing this sport. Every single year I was there a new kid was brought in who played my position (only 1 plays at a time), who were probably promised the same thing - 3 of which ended up playing major d1 in this sport - and I ended up never even getting a chance. Hell yah I am salty about it - still am - but I also get that it is just the way it works in sports.  I never got the opportunity to show my talents like I was promised and was left with the choice of switching schools again to follow my dream of playing at the D1 level (and mind you, I was actually paying for school), or stay where I was where I had built some great friendships that will last a lifetime. I chose to stay - which got me into MU and got me the job I have now.

Long story short - this sh!t happens everywhere. I've experienced first hand. It sucks, but its just the way it works. Major college hoops is a step up from HS - these coaches are paid millions to win, and they can and should do whatever they can to do so. As a fan, I can appreciate that - even if a kid gets a raw deal every now and then.   

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

no one is arguing that "things change."  no one is arguing that the best players shouldn't get the minutes.  my post stated that if the kid did everything asked of him, he shouldn't have his scholarship removed.  if wally came to MU, did everything asked of him, and was cut simply because hank is gone...that's bs.  if wally told wojo ahead of time that he couldn't commit to MU bball 100% because of track, and wojo said ok, then later changed his mind...that's bs.  if wally originally committed to bball 100%, and later asked for some flexibility from bball for track, and wojo said no, i'm good with that. 

if a coach walks in a recruits house, tells him he will have a great career at MU if he gives his all, the kid gives his all, but the coach finds what might be a better player and cuts the kid...that's bs.  if the coach says you have to earn every minute, and you're replaceable any year for a better recruit...fair enough. 

and to 4ever's point...the door does swing both ways...but not in an equal manner.  kids have to sit out, transfer restrictions can be applied, etc...  overall, the adults who profit off the game are in a much more advantageous position, and that is also bs.  no one is advocating for the rights of the kids.

Wally was cut because he wasn't good enough to make the team. That happens at every level of competitive athletics. Wally failed to earn his scholarship by not being better than the 13 others guys who are interested in being on the team. I get it. It sucks to be the worst guy on the team. It sucks to get cut. But that's part of athletics. Hell that's part of life. You don't get the job just because you tried harder than anybody else. You have to be better than everyone else.

I think people are trying to make this too complicated. I don't think Wally running track is part of it. I don't think the Ellensons being a handful is part of it. I don't think Henry declaring for the NBA is a part of it. I think it simply boils down to, Wojo has 14 guys interested in playing for Marquette. He has 13 scholarships to give out. Of those 14 guys, Wally is the 14th best at basketball. If he was the 13th best at basketball, he would still be on the team.

[onepost]

This isn't hard to grasp.  We have no front court depth going into next season, much of that due to the fact that Henry took off after 1 year.  Some will blame Wojo for not going out and finding another big beforehand but he focused on quality guard play, which we haven't had in forever and we all know is Priority A, B, and C in college basketball.

It seems like there were concessions in the past for Wally and track, I have no idea the extent or the agreement when he committed.  You could assume that with Henry here there was literally no need to have Wally contribute on the court so he could get away with meets and skipping bball.  When Henry left, circumstances changed and if Wally wanted to get any PT he'd have to change course as well.  Wojo needed Wally to dedicate himself 100% to basketball and the program this summer/season because we have no front court depth and Wally wouldn't concede track so the rest is history.  IT WAS WALLY'S CHOICE.  And he made the right choice for himself.

We all know this but the reason I spell it out is to show this wasn't immoral in the slightest.  Just the way college basketball works everywhere.  Things change quickly, Wojo gave Wally a choice and he wouldn't commit.  See ya.  As I mentioned before, no one would bat an eye if Henry wasn't his brother.  The Ellensons are the definitions of helicopter parents who I'm sure made this harder than it needed to be.  And from what I've heard from multiple people involved in the Athletic Department, they were an absolute nightmare to deal with for 2 years - so I'm not exactly giving them the benefit of the doubt.

[bilsu]

If, as several posters have said, Wally was unwilling to fully commit to basketball (attending all practices, weight lifting sessions, etc. even when it conflicted with track), doesn't this change things?

No, because they knew that when they recruited him.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

No, because they knew that when they recruited him.

We also had 8 scholarship players when he was redshirtng thsyd not even enough practice bodies.

[bilsu]

You are of course free to your own opinion.  But the fact is, cuts happened with Buzz and Crean too - under Jesuit presidents.  I don't know why people are treating this one so differently.

Because they brought in Wojo in to change the type of players MU was recruiting. The premise was that good students and good citizens were more important than better players with character flaws. We are now cutting good character type of recruits. There was more than one basketball game on TV where the announcers talked about Wally's high jumping ability. He also gave MU some first place finishes in track, which is something MU was proud of. As far as I know he is a good student and I have not heard of him doing anything, but bringing good press to MU. For all of this MU rewards him by taking away his basketball scholarship. Some of you are advocating taking away Cohen's scholarship, if we could sign both recruits. I just do not agree with that. I do not care if you do not agree with me or if you think I am crazy. You have a right to think that getting the best players possible is more important than the commitments made during recruiting just as I have the right to think it is wrong.

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Nah, just win baby.

[Stretchdeltsig]

Wojo was brought in to win period.  In order to win, you have to recruit the best talent possible and coach them to win.  It is all about winning.  This isn't little league!

[brewcity77]

Wojo was brought in to win period. In order to win, you have to recruit the best talent possible and coach them to win.  It is all about winning.  This isn't little league!

The thing is, this is completely inaccurate. If winning was all Marquette cared about, the JUCO restrictions never would have changed for Buzz and he'd still be our coach.

Wojo is here in large part to create a new culture and to do things in diametric opposition to how Buzz did things. Winning matters, but it is not the only thing that does.

[Lennys Tap]

The thing is, this is completely inaccurate. If winning was all Marquette cared about, the JUCO restrictions never would have changed for Buzz and he'd still be our coach.

Wojo is here in large part to create a new culture and to do things in diametric opposition to how Buzz did things. Winning matters, but it is not the only thing that does.

Respectfully disagree. Remember, Shaka was our first choice and he's hardly a "culture changer". If you count Wally (I do) Wojo has already brought in 4 "one and dones" and he's currently after #5. That says "just win, baby" to me.

[MomofMUltiples]

Respectfully disagree. Remember, Shaka was our first choice and he's hardly a "culture changer". If you count Wally (I do) Wojo has already brought in 4 "one and dones" and he's currently after #5. That says "just win, baby" to me.

Disagree with your point here. "One and dones" refer to freshman phenoms who are just biding their time until they reach NBA eligibility.  Grad transfers (Carlino, Reinhardt) are players that have dedicated 3-4 years to college ball, met their school's requirements to obtain a degree, and choose to look for a different basketball experience, for whatever reason.  It's a world of difference, and grad transfers can bring experience and depth to a team, and fill holes while the coach works on recruiting longer term players to those positions.

Wally, on the other hand, spent two years with the team, sitting one out for transfer reasons.  You can maybe call him "bait," but not a one and done.

[Dawson Rental]

Well then, more to my point. If MU wants to be an elite program, they need to act like one. That includes getting the best 13 players on the roster they can possible get.

Great idea.  Can we count on you to be in charge of prostitute procurement for recruits?

[naginiF]

Great idea.  Can we count on you to be in charge of prostitute procurement for recruits?

Christ!  you want to doom us to SLU/UD status?  careful whom you anoint 'Entertainment Chair'

#4ever4chair

[Dawson Rental]

This isn't hard to grasp.  We have no front court depth going into next season, much of that due to the fact that Henry took off after 1 year.  Some will blame Wojo for not going out and finding another big beforehand but he focused on quality guard play, which we haven't had in forever and we all know is Priority A, B, and C in college basketball.

It seems like there were concessions in the past for Wally and track, I have no idea the extent or the agreement when he committed.  You could assume that with Henry here there was literally no need to have Wally contribute on the court so he could get away with meets and skipping bball.  When Henry left, circumstances changed and if Wally wanted to get any PT he'd have to change course as well.  Wojo needed Wally to dedicate himself 100% to basketball and the program this summer/season because we have no front court depth and Wally wouldn't concede track so the rest is history.  IT WAS WALLY'S CHOICE.  And he made the right choice for himself.

We all know this but the reason I spell it out is to show this wasn't immoral in the slightest.  Just the way college basketball works everywhere.  Things change quickly, Wojo gave Wally a choice and he wouldn't commit.  See ya.  As I mentioned before, no one would bat an eye if Henry wasn't his brother.  The Ellensons are the definitions of helicopter parents who I'm sure made this harder than it needed to be.  And from what I've heard from multiple people involved in the Athletic Department, they were an absolute nightmare to deal with for 2 years - so I'm not exactly giving them the benefit of the doubt.

No front court depth is a direct result of Wojo choosing to use the scholarship that opened up when Henry announced he was leaving to sign Katin Reinhardt, instead of holding it for one of the possible front court recruits.  Before Henry announced he was leaving, Woj couldn't have been too concerned about front court depth since he chose to recruit Hauser and Howard with his two open scholarships.