collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

Big East 23-24 NCAA and NIT Results by PointWarrior
[Today at 12:08:31 AM]


Three Years Ago Today... by Newsdreams
[March 27, 2024, 11:34:10 PM]


Kam Jones 1st Round Mock - The Ringer by PGsHeroes32
[March 27, 2024, 10:40:15 PM]


Katz has MU in Final Four by MurphysTillClose
[March 27, 2024, 10:24:36 PM]


UNLEASH THE POWER OF SCOOP!!! by TallTitan34
[March 27, 2024, 10:20:50 PM]


Best MU team since 1977 by Galway Eagle
[March 27, 2024, 09:47:04 PM]


Chicago bars for Fri game by Hallmarq
[March 27, 2024, 09:09:04 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: Why So Much Chief Hate?  (Read 19449 times)

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2016, 10:21:13 AM »
By "respect him," I am assuming brew means that you just can't play completely off him.  Cohen's problem is that his outside shot is slow.  When he has time, he makes them.  When defenses get better, he rushes and accuracy suffers.  If you leave him wide open, he will hit them more often.

I think brew is spot on.  10-15 minute player.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2016, 11:20:47 AM »
This is wrong.

Care to expound? Sandy can't be ignored on the perimeter because he can knock down the open shot. If a team sags off of Sandy at the arc, they'll pay for it. Granted, he has a slow release, but you can't just pretend he's not there (like a Derrick Wilson). He also can hit putbacks and has enough athleticism inside to dunk if he has space.

Sandy will never be a 15 ppg guy, but he does enough to keep the defense honest as long as he's surrounded by other scorers. Worthwhile as a reserve, especially given our dearth of front court players.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22723
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2016, 11:49:50 AM »
Last season, Sandy had 5 games in which he made at least two 3-pointers. He was 14-for-26 in those games. In the other 28 games, he was 13-for-50. Which more accurately represents Sandy's 3-point ability, a 5-game sample or a 28-game sample?

For that matter, aside from his 6-for-10 against San Jose State, he shot 31.8% from 3-point range in the other 32 games.

My point is that I'm not sure opposing coaches will respect Sandy's 3-point shooting and game-plan against it until he shows he can consistently make 3s.

Given that 28-game sample, one could argue that Sandy Cohen 3-pointers are the kind of shots an opposing coach would like to see Marquette settle for.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2016, 12:01:38 PM »
I'd say the 33 game sample where he was 27/76 (35.5%) more accurately represents him. Cherry picking stats can be fun, but is rarely honest or objective.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

fjm

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3166
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2016, 01:15:54 PM »
I'd say the 33 game sample where he was 27/76 (35.5%) more accurately represents him. Cherry picking stats can be fun, but is rarely honest or objective.

What brew said.

CTWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4072
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2016, 02:23:40 PM »
Last season, Sandy had 5 games in which he made at least two 3-pointers. He was 14-for-26 in those games. In the other 28 games, he was 13-for-50. Which more accurately represents Sandy's 3-point ability, a 5-game sample or a 28-game sample?

It works both ways.  In Sandy's worst 5 games he was 0-10 from 3.  In the other 28 games he was 27-66 (41%).  Which more accurately represents Sandy's 3-point ability, a 5-game sample or a 28-game sample?

But I think you are right that he's not much of a 3 point shooter against high D-1 defense.  I think a telling way to look at it is that he shot 15-33 (45.4%) against the dregs of our schedule (IUPUI, Jackson State, Grambling, Maine, San Jose State, Chicago State, Presbyterian, and Stetson) and 12-43 (27.9%) against our true D-1 opponents.  Similar his freshman season, 7-17 (41.1%) against the dregs and 15-49 (30.6%) against opponents on our level.
Calvin:  I'm a genius.  But I'm a misunderstood genius. 
Hobbes:  What's misunderstood about you?
Calvin:  Nobody thinks I'm a genius.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2016, 02:36:02 PM »
I stand by Sandy being enough of a threat to hit the open three. Even if you factor the 27/92 (29.3%) against high majors in two years cited by CT, that's reliable enough that defenses have to cover him at the arc.

Even assuming he doesn't improve at all, he's still our best returning defensive rebounder, has shown the ability to play some decent defense, and can score enough to not be a total liability on offense.

I'm not saying he's a star, but as a 10-15 mpg guy, we could do far, far worse.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22723
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #57 on: April 29, 2016, 02:53:22 PM »
Agree about the cherry-picking of stats. I don't usually do that, and I don't love it when people do.

I am trying to remember how Sandy was defended, though, and I sure don't remember many games when opposing coaches so feared his 3 that they had defenders up in his grill all the time.

My memory ain't what it used to be, though, so maybe I'm wrong. And hard-working players do improve.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #58 on: April 29, 2016, 02:56:00 PM »
They weren't "up in his grill," but they didn't sag off him completely. 

Frenns Liquor Depot

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3167
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #59 on: April 29, 2016, 03:02:49 PM »
Sandy needs to improve next year to the point he doesn't fade once conference season begins -- and in my opinion it is a material jump. 

All these other questions about last season are just too hard to really answer because the fact is, he wasn't very memorable and not very effective once Jan hit.  All prognostications about what kind of player he can be really depends on how much he improves in the off-season.  I hope he makes a big jump.


brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #60 on: April 29, 2016, 03:04:49 PM »
I am trying to remember how Sandy was defended, though, and I sure don't remember many games when opposing coaches so feared his 3 that they had defenders up in his grill all the time.

Agreed, but it's just about making sure guys respect him enough to guard him honestly. When he's out there, he's good enough on both ends to be a respectable backup 3/4 in this league, provided he can add a bit of muscle to hold his position down low without losing what quickness and athleticism he has.

Right now, I think the ideal situation would be for us to get Gill as a starter and have him play 25-30 mpg, Sandy to come off the bench for 10-15 mpg, and occasionally go full on four guard offense. To do that, Sandy doesn't have to be a stud, he just needs to be good enough.

EDIT: Sandy's raw per game numbers are surprisingly comparable to Kris Jenkins' first two years at 'Nova. Sandy logged more minutes, rebounded and assisted a little more, scored a little less, all in all not a terrible statistical comparison. And while Sandy wasn't as efficient as Jenkins, his eFG% and ORtg were pretty solid this past year.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 03:30:53 PM by brewcity77 »
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22723
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2016, 03:31:59 PM »
Agreed, but it's just about making sure guys respect him enough to guard him honestly. When he's out there, he's good enough on both ends to be a respectable backup 3/4 in this league, provided he can add a bit of muscle to hold his position down low without losing what quickness and athleticism he has.

Right now, I think the ideal situation would be for us to get Gill as a starter and have him play 25-30 mpg, Sandy to come off the bench for 10-15 mpg, and occasionally go full on four guard offense. To do that, Sandy doesn't have to be a stud, he just needs to be good enough.

EDIT: Sandy's raw per game numbers are surprisingly comparable to Kris Jenkins' first two years at 'Nova. Sandy logged more minutes, rebounded and assisted a little more, scored a little less, all in all not a terrible statistical comparison. And while Sandy wasn't as efficient as Jenkins, his eFG% and ORtg were pretty solid this past year.

Agree about the ideal minutes and ideal role for Sandy. Here's hoping he improves enough to warrant it.

I'll settle for him being the next Kris Jenkins.  8-)
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2016, 03:47:39 PM »
Agree about the ideal minutes and ideal role for Sandy. Here's hoping he improves enough to warrant it.

I'll settle for him being the next Kris Jenkins.  8-)

After looking at the comparison, I think it's fair to expect Sandy to be the next Kris Jenkins. Anything less than 13/4 along with hitting a championship winning shot would probably be a disappointment.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

HoopsterBC

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2016, 03:52:36 PM »
After looking at the comparison, I think it's fair to expect Sandy to be the next Kris Jenkins. Anything less than 13/4 along with hitting a championship winning shot would probably be a disappointment.

Sandy will have to have a total offensive makeover for him to average 13/4.  He is an athlete but not much of a ballplayer yet.  It took Vander a few years before the light
bulb went on, maybe it can happen to him.    Kris Jenkins not even close.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2016, 03:58:38 PM »
Sandy will have to have a total offensive makeover for him to average 13/4.  He is an athlete but not much of a ballplayer yet. It took Vander a few years before the light
bulb went on
, maybe it can happen to him.    Kris Jenkins not even close.

Junior year. Just like Sandy next year. So you agree, Sandy will be the next Kris Jenkins/Vander Blue starting next season.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

HoopsterBC

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 618
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2016, 04:11:36 PM »
Junior year. Just like Sandy next year. So you agree, Sandy will be the next Kris Jenkins/Vander Blue starting next season.

We can all dream it can happen, have no idea how hard a worker he is, but anything can happen.  I would be pleasantly surprised as I think minutes next year will
be tougher to get if they land a 4, if not he might start at the 4.  Now that would make me nervous if I was the coach.

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26358
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2016, 04:14:00 PM »
Here I figured any post I made quoting MU82 wouldn't require teal...
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22723
Re: Why So Much Chief Hate?
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2016, 05:22:48 PM »
Here I figured any post I made quoting MU82 wouldn't require teal...
I love it, brew.

Down with teal!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9019
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2016, 07:15:34 PM »
I am a strong defender of Sandy.

He had an offensive rating of 106 in 7 of the last 8 games in which he played at least 15 minutes

C'mon... state his usage. You know better.

Yes, the last game he played 15 or more he played 21 mins and had an astromical 217 ORtg...he also didn't shoot the ball, and had only 1 rebound and 3 fouls. The 2 assists gave him that rating. Good grief.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 07:17:30 PM by Jay Bee »
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Marcus92

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2016, 12:29:17 PM »
C'mon... state his usage. You know better.

Yes, the last game he played 15 or more he played 21 mins and had an astromical 217 ORtg...he also didn't shoot the ball, and had only 1 rebound and 3 fouls. The 2 assists gave him that rating. Good grief.

I don't think anybody's saying that Sandy is a star, or will be a star this coming season. But he's not a complete stiff, either.

Sandy is a good athlete with solid shooting form. He brings energy to the court and is a total team player. Against Wisconsin, he played excellent defense, helping limit Nigel Hayes to 4 of 18 shooting and just 10 points (his fourth-lowest scoring total of the season). But he's only shown flashes so far. Sometimes encouraging, sometimes confounding.

Can he raise his game to the next level? It's possible. Based on the playing time he got last season (23 games with 20+ minutes), it seems like Wojo believes in his potential. If so, he could play a key role on the team. But we won't know until the start of the season.
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9019
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2016, 02:58:59 PM »
I don't think anybody's saying that Sandy is a star, or will be a star this coming season. But he's not a complete stiff, either.

Not sure why that's your reply to me? My comment was focused solely on praise given to him for a great ORtg in the "last 8 games he played at least 15 minutes in"... the reason for my comment is because he was invisible in most of those games and never once had a 20% usage game in any of them... more than half of them were sub-10% usage games.

Hey, a 217 ORtg sounds great... but when you didn't do anything in 21 minutes other than get 2 assists, it's an important piece of information to consider.
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Marcus92

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2513
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2016, 03:40:04 PM »
Not sure why that's your reply to me? My comment was focused solely on praise given to him for a great ORtg in the "last 8 games he played at least 15 minutes in"... the reason for my comment is because he was invisible in most of those games and never once had a 20% usage game in any of them... more than half of them were sub-10% usage games.

Hey, a 217 ORtg sounds great... but when you didn't do anything in 21 minutes other than get 2 assists, it's an important piece of information to consider.

I didn't read auburn's post as praise, and he never said that Sandy had a "great ORtg." He was simply pointing out some contributions that others may have overlooked — such as defensive rebounding.

"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9019
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2016, 04:20:58 PM »
I didn't read auburn's post as praise, and he never said that Sandy had a "great ORtg." He was simply pointing out some contributions that others may have overlooked — such as defensive rebounding.

Quote
I am a strong defender of Sandy.

He had an offensive rating of 106 in 7 of the last 8 games in which he played at least 15 minutes - he was 9 of 20 and with 4 of them made 3-pointers his eFG% was 55%, and he hit 80% of his free throws (12 of 15).

He pointed out his offensive rating, but failed to note that he was nearly invisible so it mattered little.

In conference, Sandy had a usage of 12.1% -- and that was with the "help" of a 24%+ turnover rate.

Conference comps:
Derrick Wilson Sr Year: 97 Ortg, 13.3% usage, 21.7% turnover rate, OR% 3.4% for the 6'1" PG
Sandy Cohen So Year: 91 Ortg, 12.1% usage, 24.2% turnover rate, OR% 1.0% for the 6'6" wing

Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22723
Re: Cohen playing a good role
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2016, 08:49:18 PM »
He pointed out his offensive rating, but failed to note that he was nearly invisible so it mattered little.

In conference, Sandy had a usage of 12.1% -- and that was with the "help" of a 24%+ turnover rate.

Conference comps:
Derrick Wilson Sr Year: 97 Ortg, 13.3% usage, 21.7% turnover rate, OR% 3.4% for the 6'1" PG
Sandy Cohen So Year: 91 Ortg, 12.1% usage, 24.2% turnover rate, OR% 1.0% for the 6'6" wing

Not to sound like a geezer, but this is the problem with some of these new-fangled stats the kiddies love today.

I'll take Hankster's 10 easy rebounds a game, thank you.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson