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Author Topic: Holly Ellenson speaks...  (Read 75707 times)

keefe

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #250 on: April 27, 2016, 12:05:52 AM »

Outside of basketball Financial Aid is not even taken into consideration for rosters and limits. In basketball only recruited individuals receiving aid are counted and must stay below the 13 limit for men, 15 for women. However, anyone not recruited under the Ivy definition or recruiting but not receiving institutional aid is not counted towards the 13/15.

The Director of Financial Aid must sign off that all student-athletes were awarded institutional financial aid under the same formula as the rest of the student body and report that to the Ivy League offices annually. It is not uncommon for highly sought recruits to be ruled out because their award package is not high enough and their out of pocket expenses will be too high and they'd rather get a full scholarship elsewhere.

Precisely. As I said, the awards are indexed. Our son was offered a spot on an Ivy team but ended up playing in the Pac 12. The financial award was explained to us and it was pretty meager. 


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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #251 on: April 27, 2016, 09:20:15 AM »
"I've got a guy..."

Yup....worked with him at Marquette for 3 years...he's been at the NCAA for 18 years.  He's provided me with a bunch of answers yesterday which I will share, but he's checking into one more thing.

Also have a gal there, who works in this particular area in terms of rules, but she is on PTO right now.


Lennys Tap

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #252 on: April 27, 2016, 10:26:19 AM »
like I said, you already did.

Long time lurker here but being an expert in this area I figured I'd register and correct misinformation. I apologize if it hurt your feelings.

Don't feel bad - despite his large brain and his vast network of connected people, correcting misinformation provided by Chico is a part time job shared by scores of people on Scoop. Welcome to the club.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #253 on: April 28, 2016, 03:35:39 AM »
According to friend at NCAA for 18 years, counter sports are full ride or nothing.  No partials.

Will confirm next week with another who will be back from vacation


79Warrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #254 on: April 28, 2016, 10:19:58 AM »
Ahem...

"Head count sports = FULL RIDE

Equivalency sports  = partials or full ride

http://www.athleticscholarships.net/sports-scholarships/head-count-versus-equivalency-scholarships.htm

Black and white.  Been this way since I worked in various athletic departments and I don't think anything has changed it.  We're going through this with my son right now, who would be in an equivalency sport."


I'd be interested to see what you characterize as emphatic.  I suppose you could have said, "...and nothing has changed."  But otherwise, when you're using all caps and dropping a "Black and white" on me, I'd consider that pretty emphatic.

My business partner's son attends Pepperdine and plays golf for the school. He gets 15k a year for golf from the school.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #255 on: April 28, 2016, 10:24:41 AM »
My business partner's son attends Pepperdine and plays golf for the school. He gets 15k a year for golf from the school.

Men's golf is an equivalency sport, so I think we all agree that partial scholarships and financial aid less than a full scholarships is allowed.  The question upon which there is some disagreement is whether an athlete in a head count sport can receive less than full financial aid.  I know the answer already.  Chicos is just waiting to talk with someone at NCAA who actually knows the correct answer -- because he's been misinformed twice so far.
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rocky_warrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #256 on: April 28, 2016, 01:18:17 PM »
I know the answer already.  Chicos is just waiting to talk with someone at NCAA who actually knows the correct answer -- because he's been misinformed twice so far.

This is one of Chico's weirder disagreements.  Is he trying to prove the schools recruiting your child were violating the rules?  I don't know why he's dismissing "real word experience".

StillAWarrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #257 on: April 28, 2016, 02:50:21 PM »
This is one of Chico's weirder disagreements.  Is he trying to prove the schools recruiting your child were violating the rules?  I don't know why he's dismissing "real word experience".

In my opinion, there are a couple things going on here.  First, we're discussing an issue that simply doesn't arise in the sports that anyone pays attention to (i.e., football and men's basketball) so people just don't know about it.  Second, people (including me in some posts in this thread) use sloppy language and refer to "partial scholarships" which is not accurate and confuses the issue.  There are no partial scholarships in head count sports.  But I do not believe that means that schools are prohibited from offering less than full grant in aid to an athlete on a head count scholarship.  I think the rules set the maximums that can be offered (in both numbers of scholarships and dollars), but not the minimums.

Another issue, I think, might be relating to semantics.  I've read some things that suggest that under NCAA rules, if a head count athlete receives both athletic money (i.e., from the athletic department) and academic money (i.e., from the university), NCAA rules require it all to be counted as athletic money.  But I'm not sure I'm completely understanding that.

I'll give Chicos the benefit of the doubt and suppose that he's thinking that I am misunderstanding/misinterpreting things and not that schools were breaking the rules.
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StillAWarrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #258 on: April 28, 2016, 03:26:36 PM »
Just had another thought on this issue -- try to contain your excitement.

As we all know, the NCAA amended its rules to allow schools to provide full cost of attendance (COA).  This is an increase for the athletes and allows compensation for things like transportation, laundry, etc.  This is all new.  It's been widely publicized that several of the power conferences adopted this and are offering COA.  I've read of some schools offering more than $6,000.  But many schools (most?) are not offering COA.

Why is this relevant to the current discussion?  Because of the way the NCAA accomplished this rule change.  They simply added COA to the definition of full grant-in-aid:

"15.02.05 Full Grant-in-Aid. [A] A full grant-in-aid is financial aid that consists of tuition and fees, room and board, books, and other expenses related to attendance at the institution up to the cost of attendance established pursuant to Bylaws 15.02.2 and 15.02.2.1. (Revised: 8/7/14, 1/17/15 effective 8/1/15)"

So, if a "full grant-in-aid" now includes COA, then any school not offering COA to athletes in head count sports -- and there are many -- is not offering full grant-in-aid.  According to Chicos, this is not allowed.

This is offered as further evidence that schools are not required to offer full grant-in-aid to head count athletes.  And while the COA rule is new, I don't think the underlying issue that we've been debating is new.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:20:38 PM by StillAWarrior »
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #259 on: April 28, 2016, 03:28:56 PM »
No one is implying anyone is breaking the rules at all.

Stillawarrior...I will PDF the emails to you via PM tonight directly from the NCAA. 

You can see if I asked the question correctly, the back and forth clarity questions, but he said headcount sports are full or none.  I don't know what else to say.

You can take a look at the emails yourself. 

Peace


Jay Bee

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #260 on: April 28, 2016, 04:54:39 PM »
No one is implying anyone is breaking the rules at all.

Stillawarrior...I will PDF the emails to you via PM tonight directly from the NCAA. 

You can see if I asked the question correctly, the back and forth clarity questions, but he said headcount sports are full or none.  I don't know what else to say.

You can take a look at the emails yourself. 

Peace

Would love to see the emails. Again, the question is whether it would hypothetically be allowed if a school - for whatever reason - decided to give less than full grant-in-aid. That's it.

"Direct from the NCAA" doesn't mean it's correct because someone works there...
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #261 on: April 28, 2016, 10:13:13 PM »
Would love to see the emails. Again, the question is whether it would hypothetically be allowed if a school - for whatever reason - decided to give less than full grant-in-aid. That's it.

"Direct from the NCAA" doesn't mean it's correct because someone works there...

It is and is rather common and done in a couple of ways as in head count sports we're talking about "counters" meaning anyone receiving any amount of an athletic grant-in-aid (bylaw 15.02.3). Head count sports mean the team is restricted in the number of athletes that can be on scholarship. Here are various ways schools can do it:

1 - full ride
2 - full which includes an academic scholarship awarded consistent with institutional policies, or a need based award
3 - partial amount on its own or including academic or financial need based award

Another example here: Doug McDermott. He got tuition paid for through the faculty/staff benefit but athletics paid the remaining amount (usually fees, books, room and board).

In all of the above situation, in a head count sport the student-athlete uses one of the counter spots towards the NCAA limit.  Head count sports are limited to the number of scholarships they give, it is not mandatory that they give the full amount.

In fact, under bylaw 15.5.1.1, a recruited student-athlete in football or basketball who receives only institutional aid becomes a counter against the limit once they compete in a varsity intercollegiate contest.

As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say: "and know you know the rest of the story."
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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #262 on: May 01, 2016, 11:36:18 PM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but Wally placed 3rd at the Drake Relays this weekend with a jump of 2.18m (7-01.75 ft)

Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.

http://results.deltatiming.com/drake/tf/2016-drake-relays/160427F150

http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2016/U-S--Olympic-Team-Trials---Track---Field/Athlete-Information/Qualifying-Standards.aspx

keefe

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #263 on: May 02, 2016, 04:10:26 AM »
I'm surprised no one has mentioned this yet but Wally placed 3rd at the Drake Relays this weekend with a jump of 2.18m (7-01.75 ft)

Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.

http://results.deltatiming.com/drake/tf/2016-drake-relays/160427F150

http://www.usatf.org/Events---Calendar/2016/U-S--Olympic-Team-Trials---Track---Field/Athlete-Information/Qualifying-Standards.aspx

Maybe he'll have a change of heart and recommit his life to basketball so Wojo can tell return his basketball scholarship while telling Gill "thanks, but no."


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Lennys Tap

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #264 on: May 02, 2016, 09:06:08 AM »


Looks like he is still a full 10 cm (4 inches) off the qualifying height for Rio so I would guess his best Olympic chances are Tokyo 2020.



Looks like Wally fell 4 inches short in two different sports.


StillAWarrior

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #265 on: May 02, 2016, 09:40:54 AM »
...literally cut and paste the question to him.

Sort of...
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Nukem2

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #266 on: May 02, 2016, 09:58:40 AM »

In all of the above situation, in a head count sport the student-athlete uses one of the counter spots towards the NCAA limit.  Head count sports are limited to the number of scholarships they give, it is not mandatory that they give the full amount.

In fact, under bylaw 15.5.1.1, a recruited student-athlete in football or basketball who receives only institutional aid becomes a counter against the limit once they compete in a varsity intercollegiate contest.

As the late, great Paul Harvey used to say: "and know you know the rest of the story."
Might be the rest of the story, but I suspect these are the exceptions for the vast majority of schools.

4everwarriors

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #267 on: May 02, 2016, 10:50:49 AM »
Pretty bad for any dude to fall 4 inches short, ai na?
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keefe

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Re: Holly Ellenson speaks...
« Reply #268 on: May 02, 2016, 11:08:56 AM »
Pretty bad for any dude to fall 4 inches short, ai na?

You measure in inches Doc?


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