Marquette: McAdams matter FAQs

[WellsstreetWanderer]

don't  know  how many  read his blog and hadn't  even heard of it before. but from emails I have been getting from alumni of various years, there are lot who are really upset over the student's  treatment and subsequent handling. the forward  email numbers are significant and not good for Mu's alumni relations

[GGGG]

This is an open and shut case.  MU is going to lose/settle and lose/settle bad--as they should.  MU emphasizes her status as a graduate student to gain PR points.  But McAdams will note that she was instructor of record.  As such, he was criticizing a peer.  I'm confident that the court will agree with him. 

Any court that thinks that a tenured professor is a "peer" of a graduate student are morons.  Which means I wouldn't put it past this batch of WI Supreme Court Justices....

[rocket surgeon]

Any court that thinks that a tenured professor is a "peer" of a graduate student are morons.  Which means I wouldn't put it past this batch of WI Supreme Court Justices....

Nice jab at the citizens of Wisconsin.  how many ways do you interpret the constitution?  Living and breathing there heyn'a? 

   I understand MU likes to call its grad student teachers students, but let's be honest here and stop splitting of hairs. She is teaching a class.  Let's just put this one down as a very expensive teaching moment.  Maybe it just ain't her calling. Like him or not, Mccadams hasn't been teaching for 30 years or so by accident

[GGGG]

Graduate students are not "peers" of faculty members.  Period.  It is an absurd comparison.

I am not saying she was a good teacher.  In fact I think she might not be.  But that doesn't change the fact that she is in no way, shape or form a peer of a professor.

[Coleman]

Graduate students are not "peers" of faculty members.  Period.  It is an absurd comparison.

I am not saying she was a good teacher.  In fact I think she might not be.  But that doesn't change the fact that she is in no way, shape or form a peer of a professor.

I have a feeling that the majority of people who understand this distinction have spent time doing postgrad work and those who do not never went beyond a bachelor's degree.

I guess from an undergrad perspective, it is easy to see blurred lines. But believe me, a grad student instructor could be nothing furthere from a tenured professor. The only thing that they have in common is that they piss in the same bathrooms.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I have a feeling that the majority of people who understand this distinction have spent time doing postgrad work and those who do not never went beyond a bachelor's degree.

I guess from an undergrad perspective, it is easy to see blurred lines. But believe me, a grad student instructor could be nothing furthere from a tenured professor. The only thing that they have in common is that they piss in the same bathrooms.

Except for the fact that they both hand out grades on behalf of the University... a grad instructor is closer to a professor in this scenario than a student.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

For your reading pleasure.  Publicly released today by the university.

https://news.marquette.edu/statement-from-marquette-university-on-associate-professor-john-mcadams/

http://marquette.edu/leadership/documents/20160118-MUFHC-Final-Report-Contested-Dismissal-Dr-John-C-McAdams.pdf

Someone needs to run over to the legal department and tell them to shut the unnatural carnal knowledge up. There is no need for them to continually be putting out statements like these.

I don't know how the university even arguably defends this lawsuit in good faith - whatever the University's motivations, it is obviously in breach of its contract with McAdams.

[keefe]

Not to be drawn back into this but by doing exactly what?  This lawsuit was a 100% certainty.  I skimmed the Complaint.  Exactly what I'd expect.

Here is the bottom line: Marquette administrators, acting on behalf of the University, acted improperly in disciplining McAdams. They used their office and its power to punish a man without regard for process or procedure.

John McAdams exercised poor judgment. Marquette University officials acted like bullies. I shake my head at the former. I am outraged by the latter.

I hate those who abuse their authority, however limited.  Marquette knew early on that those entrusted to be fair, impartial and equitable used their positions to extract vengeance against a man they simply did not like.

[GGGG]

Except for the fact that they both hand out grades on behalf of the University... a grad instructor is closer to a professor in this scenario than a student.

I use a computer at work.

Nuclear physicists uses computers at work.

HEY I'M JUST LIKE A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST!!!!

[mu03eng]

Here is the bottom line: Marquette administrators, acting on behalf of the University, acted improperly in disciplining McAdams. They used their office and its power to punish a man without regard for process or procedure.

John McAdams exercised poor judgment. Marquette University officials acted like bullies. I shake my head at the former. I am outraged by the latter.

I hate those who abuse their authority, however limited.  Marquette knew early on that those entrusted to be fair, impartial and equitable used their positions to extract vengeance against a man they simply did not like.

I think where Marquette has gotten itself into trouble is with their "middle management" like the department chairs and the A&S Dean. They saw an opportunity to "take out" a very significant thorn in their side and vastly overreached in the process. I mean they suspended McAdams but then tried to argue they didn't suspend him because he was being paid even though he wasn't even allowed on campus without written permission.

The question is, how do you resolve this at this point, with the minimal impact on Marquette? You can't reinstate McAdams, his behavior and actions were deplorable....but that in no way justifies the middle management folks going after him with such zeal and their actions probably make MU legally exposed to having to pay McAdams for mistreatment. This is just ugly, and I think MU is just bunkering trying to fight off McAdams as best they can and hope it goes away at some point.

[GGGG]

I think where Marquette has gotten itself into trouble is with their "middle management" like the department chairs and the A&S Dean. They saw an opportunity to "take out" a very significant thorn in their side and vastly overreached in the process. I mean they suspended McAdams but then tried to argue they didn't suspend him because he was being paid even though he wasn't even allowed on campus without written permission.

The question is, how do you resolve this at this point, with the minimal impact on Marquette? You can't reinstate McAdams, his behavior and actions were deplorable....but that in no way justifies the middle management folks going after him with such zeal and their actions probably make MU legally exposed to having to pay McAdams for mistreatment. This is just ugly, and I think MU is just bunkering trying to fight off McAdams as best they can and hope it goes away at some point.

I basically agree with this.  And I have seen this in higher education for years.  Department chairs, assistant deans, even deans are elevated into positions with a lack of management skills and training that gets them in trouble in small and large ways.

As I said before, James South, the lying assistant dean should be removed from his position.  I cannot comprehend why anyone while dealing with a personal matter would be nothing but above board and honest.

That being said, Marquette went through the process it requires.  He was going to be reinstated.  All he had to do was apologize to Abatte who he treated shabbily.  And he wouldn't. 

[mu03eng]

I basically agree with this.  And I have seen this in higher education for years.  Department chairs, assistant deans, even deans are elevated into positions with a lack of management skills and training that gets them in trouble in small and large ways.

As I said before, James South, the lying assistant dean should be removed from his position.  I cannot comprehend why anyone while dealing with a personal matter would be nothing but above board and honest.

I hope long term that Snow, South, and Holz have punishments for the way they acted in this whole mess and the position they put the university in. Having said that, I think we will have to wait as MU can't do anything now as it would just be fodder for the legal fight that's coming. Once it's resolved I'd like to see both Snow and South stripped of being department chair/assistant dean. If they are not punished in some way I think that would be a very significant disappointment.

That being said, Marquette went through the process it requires.  He was going to be reinstated.  All he had to do was apologize to Abatte who he treated shabbily.  And he wouldn't.

You are assuming you are dealing with a rational, reasonable person that wants a peaceful resolution. McAdams is a cad and he wanted this fight, so MU better have made a calculated decision to get into that fight by asking him to apologize...once they asked that it was destined to go to court.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

I use a computer at work.

Nuclear physicists uses computers at work.

HEY I'M JUST LIKE A NUCLEAR PHYSICIST!!!!

Very persuasive straw man... and you must recognize that it works equally well the opposite direction: undergrads attend class; grad instructors attend class; therefore grad instructors must be treated as students no matter if they are teaching the class.

Bottom line is that I don't think a jury is going to buy that the person preparing the syllabus, grading exams, and instructing students was being critiqued by McAdams in her role as student.

[GGGG]

I hope long term that Snow, South, and Holz have punishments for the way they acted in this whole mess and the position they put the university in. Having said that, I think we will have to wait as MU can't do anything now as it would just be fodder for the legal fight that's coming. Once it's resolved I'd like to see both Snow and South stripped of being department chair/assistant dean. If they are not punished in some way I think that would be a very significant disappointment.

Snow has left Marquette and is at the University of Oklahoma, but yeah.  I agree with this.

You are assuming you are dealing with a rational, reasonable person that wants a peaceful resolution. McAdams is a cad and he wanted this fight, so MU better have made a calculated decision to get into that fight by asking him to apologize...once they asked that it was destined to go to court.

Yeah I hope Marquette had a clear understanding of where this was going to lead, and that they were counselled appropriately.

[Coleman]

Very persuasive straw man... and you must recognize that it works equally well the opposite direction: undergrads attend class; grad instructors attend class; therefore grad instructors must be treated as students no matter if they are teaching the class.

Bottom line is that I don't think a jury is going to buy that the person preparing the syllabus, grading exams, and instructing students was being critiqued by McAdams in her role as student.

You do know that graduate programs in the humanities are training programs for academic teaching, right? So yeah, you are learning to teach, so you have teaching experience, but you are still a student. It is like an internship, or a student teaching program.

Student first. Instructor second. McAdams bullied a student.

[Coleman]

I've enrolled the help of MS Paint to help you understand.

The hierarchy demonstrates the power dynamic in this scenario.

The size of the oval indicates the relative power each player has. Get it?

[Badgerhater]

I have a feeling that the majority of people who understand this distinction have spent time doing postgrad work and those who do not never went beyond a bachelor's degree.

I guess from an undergrad perspective, it is easy to see blurred lines. But believe me, a grad student instructor could be nothing furthere from a tenured professor. The only thing that they have in common is that they piss in the same bathrooms.

I was a TA at Marquette and at the time I was there, there were two types of TAs.

I was the standard TA who helped out a professor with his class.  I worked for him and developed all of my lesson planning within his framework and was his extension to that classroom.

The other kind of TA, which is the type in the McAdams scenario, is an advanced PhD student who gets their own class to develop from scratch and have total responsibility for.  It is a significant opportunity for those seeking to go into academia.

Since that TA had total control of her class, MU's claim that she is a student in this situation isn't very strong.  She was operating as an instructor and was a person of authority in the situation.

What would have nipped this whole incident in the bud, is if Nancy Snow and the Philo department had handled the issue at their level.

...and one can think that McAdams' response was over the top, but the reason it got to that level was that an entire department failed to do its job.  Marquette's effort would be better spent cleaning up the latter mess, rather than the former.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

What would have nipped this whole incident in the bud, is if Nancy Snow and the Philo department had handled the issue at their level.

This whole situation is a bunch of employees and students behaving terribly.  MU didn't put this in the public domain but they have decided to take a stand (hopefully calculated).

I hope this is being used to make multiple points on how Lovell wants MU managed in the future.  Personally, I think MU's actions, particularly recently, are calculated.  If a bunch of message board jockey's can see where the puck is going on this one, I am going to assume MU's high powered law firm has the same if not better view of things. 

Rather than judge now on whether it is 'smart' or 'terrible', I am going to wait to see how it ends and what changes down the road.   

[warriorchick]

Ih and have total responsibility for.  It is a significant opportunity for those seeking to go into academia.

Since that TA had total control of her class, MU's claim that she is a student in this situation isn't very strong.  She was operating as an instructor and was a person of authority in the situation.

Not according to the clear distinctions of the Marquette Code of Conduct.

But let's entertain your position for a moment. According to the investigation document, McAdams has a history of bullying and intimidating lower-ranked teachers at MU whose opinions differ from his.  Are they not entitled to academic freedom as well?  Or does tenure give you carte blanche to express your views however you see fit, even to the detriment of others who disagree with you?

[GGGG]

I was a TA at Marquette and at the time I was there, there were two types of TAs.

I was the standard TA who helped out a professor with his class.  I worked for him and developed all of my lesson planning within his framework and was his extension to that classroom.

The other kind of TA, which is the type in the McAdams scenario, is an advanced PhD student who gets their own class to develop from scratch and have total responsibility for.  It is a significant opportunity for those seeking to go into academia.

Is this "two types of TAs" scenario actually laid out in University policy?

So for instance, are they compensated differently?  Do they have different position descriptions?  Or is all of this informal and still left up to the department.

[keefe]

I was a TA at Marquette and at the time I was there, there were two types of TAs.

I was the standard TA who helped out a professor with his class.  I worked for him and developed all of my lesson planning within his framework and was his extension to that classroom.

The other kind of TA, which is the type in the McAdams scenario, is an advanced PhD student who gets their own class to develop from scratch and have total responsibility for.  It is a significant opportunity for those seeking to go into academia.

Since that TA had total control of her class, MU's claim that she is a student in this situation isn't very strong.  She was operating as an instructor and was a person of authority in the situation.

What would have nipped this whole incident in the bud, is if Nancy Snow and the Philo department had handled the issue at their level.

...and one can think that McAdams' response was over the top, but the reason it got to that level was that an entire department failed to do its job.  Marquette's effort would be better spent cleaning up the latter mess, rather than the former.

This is outstanding insight. The only TA I had at Marquette was for that freshman English class we all had to take. There was no professor; the TA ran the course per some pro forma protocols established by the Department.

As you point out, Abbate designed and taught this course. She wasn't using a cookbook recipe.

For her to summarily dismiss the student's question in the manner she did is egregious. Perhaps she has no business being in a classroom. 

[keefe]

Not according to the clear distinctions of the Marquette Code of Conduct.

But let's entertain your position for a moment. According to the investigation document, McAdams has a history of bullying and intimidating lower-ranked teachers at MU whose opinions differ from his.  Are they not entitled to academic freedom as well?  Or does tenure give you carte blanche to express your views however you see fit, even to the detriment of others who disagree with you?

Let's entertain your position for a moment: Wasn't John McAdams entitled to the protections of his contract when subjected to the harassment, bullying, and intimidation doled out by higher-ranked professors who had been entrusted with positions of authority by the University? Or does enshrinement as an administrator give one carte blanche to wield power arbitrarily, without regard to the established processes, especially to the detriment of those whom you simply do not like?

You can't have it both ways. As Fr Davitt stressed to us: ethical behavior is constant and universal and never ever situational.

 

[Coleman]

Let's entertain your position for a moment: Wasn't John McAdams entitled to the protections of his contract when subjected to the harassment, bullying, and intimidation doled out by higher-ranked professors who had been entrusted with positions of authority by the University? Or does enshrinement as an administrator give one carte blanche to wield power arbitrarily, without regard to the established processes, especially to the detriment of those whom you simply do not like?

You can't have it both ways. As Fr Davitt stressed to us: ethical behavior is constant and universal and never ever situational.

 

Ethics is ALWAYS situational.

[keefe]

I think where Marquette has gotten itself into trouble is with their "middle management" like the department chairs and the A&S Dean. They saw an opportunity to "take out" a very significant thorn in their side and vastly overreached in the process. I mean they suspended McAdams but then tried to argue they didn't suspend him because he was being paid even though he wasn't even allowed on campus without written permission.

The question is, how do you resolve this at this point, with the minimal impact on Marquette? You can't reinstate McAdams, his behavior and actions were deplorable....but that in no way justifies the middle management folks going after him with such zeal and their actions probably make MU legally exposed to having to pay McAdams for mistreatment. This is just ugly, and I think MU is just bunkering trying to fight off McAdams as best they can and hope it goes away at some point.

I agree that the first echelon of authority caused the problem (and NOT McAdams, despite what people might think.)

But senior leadership had an obligation to resolve this situation. What has transpired is anything but a case study in effective crisis management.

The delicious irony in all of this is that the ones who created the mess - Snow, South, and Holz - are free to carry on when, in fact, they are the ones who should have been under the microscope.

McAdams exercised poor judgment. Snow, South, and Holz abused their authority and were even dishonest.

[keefe]

Ethics is ALWAYS situational.

Well, we will just have to disagree.

As Fr Davitt always said - the world is governed by certain absolutes and moral imperatives.