UNC Investigation

[Eldon]

Precisely. And this one required the active participation of not just supposed students but University Presidents, Academic Deans, faculty, administrators, coaches...

This wasn't paying students; this was manufacturing degrees.

And your point is spot on - UNC's status as a legitimate university is in play. You expect this from the on-line for profit "colleges" but not from a nationally respected university.

   

[MerrittsMustache]

He is following the Duke formula in all but one way (and the most important way)...consistent success. He has not made the postseason, much less have any sort of sustained success in the NCAA tournament.

I am no Wojo critic. I am a firm believer that you need to give a college coach at least 4 years to have a full team of his recruits, and think he has done a reasonably ok job so far (B- or C+ if you had to push me for a grade), but to say he is heir apparent at Duke seems premature at best.

He may have a lower bar than other potential candidates. Perhaps he just has to make a few NCAA tournaments, make a run to the Sweet 16, and he'll be in, while others would have to have a Final Four on their resume. That could be the case. But he hasn't even come close to hitting that lower bar yet.

Wojo been a head coach for all of 2 seasons and Coach K isn't retiring tomorrow. I know that some fans aren't thrilled that the program hasn't turned around overnight, but Wojo has already landed a top 10 recruiting class led by a McD AA and has 3 more top 100 recruits committed to the program. Yes, he needs to show results on the court but MU basketball is trending in the right direction.

[keefe]

Did this go back 20 years?  Cause Smith retired 20 years ago.

And Paterno was told from an eye witness than he had a child molester in Sandusky but still let him hang around the program.

I am told this went back more than three decades and that Dean was more involved in constructing the fraud than just a simple consumer.

My buddy is a Dookie, hell, he's on the Law School's Board of Visitors, but he is also a very rational, thoughtful lawyer and VC who isn't given to hyperbole.

If he says that Deano was actively involved in creating the fraud I would trust his intel because he is very well connected and speaks in the measured tenor and cadence of discerning counsel.

[GooooMarquette]

I am told this went back more than three decades and that Dean was more involved in constructing the fraud than just a simple consumer.

My buddy is a Dookie, hell, he's on the Law School's Board of Visitors, but he is also a very rational, thoughtful lawyer and VC who isn't given to hyperbole.

If he says that Deano was actively involved in creating the fraud I would trust his intel because he is very well connected and speaks in the measured tenor and cadence of discerning counsel.

March 28, 1977:

Marquette 67
Vacated 59

[keefe]

He is following the Duke formula in all but one way (and the most important way)...consistent success. He has not made the postseason, much less have any sort of sustained success in the NCAA tournament.

I am no Wojo critic. I am a firm believer that you need to give a college coach at least 4 years to have a full team of his recruits, and think he has done a reasonably ok job so far (B- or C+ if you had to push me for a grade), but to say he is heir apparent at Duke seems premature at best.

He may have a lower bar than other potential candidates. Perhaps he just has to make a few NCAA tournaments, make a run to the Sweet 16, and he'll be in, while others would have to have a Final Four on their resume. That could be the case. But he hasn't even come close to hitting that lower bar yet.

Coleman

Wojo inherited a sh1t burger from Bert. As I measure Wojo's progress I would say he has a plan, the Duke plan,and he is on track against it.

I think we all wanted to see faster results but, the more rational here, knew that 15-16 would be another building season.

What I heard yesterday is that K's tenure still has some legs to it, Wojo needs to show he can run a program that Duke would be proud of, and that the Duke community, most importantly K, want to see him come back to Durham.

I did not hear any specific heuristics mentioned in terms of on-court performance at Marquette. I think they are looking at the intangibles more than anything else.

[GGGG]

The NCAA really wants UNC to help them out here and not just by sitting out an NCAA tournament like Syracuse and Louisville.  But UNC isn't doing anything on the athletic side.  And that is a larger damnation to me than anything.  If you had basketball coaches willingly engaging in academic fraud, whether or not they are in the Hall of Fame, they should be fired for cause. 

[1990Warrior]

How pervasive is this in Basketball?  I can't believe that this is specific to UNC.

What would happen if they looked at football?  I think it would be worse.

[Coleman]

Wojo been a head coach for all of 2 seasons and Coach K isn't retiring tomorrow. I know that some fans aren't thrilled that the program hasn't turned around overnight, but Wojo has already landed a top 10 recruiting class led by a McD AA and has 3 more top 100 recruits committed to the program. Yes, he needs to show results on the court but MU basketball is trending in the right direction.

No argument. But that wasn't the point of my post. I'm not calling for Wojo's head. I just think its incredibly early to be giving him dibs at the Duke job, regardless of when that happens to be.

But really, what do I care? I'm not a Dookie. If they want him regardless of any real sustained success, no sweat off my balls.

[keefe]

The NCAA really wants UNC to help them out here and not just by sitting out an NCAA tournament like Syracuse and Louisville.  But UNC isn't doing anything on the athletic side.  And that is a larger damnation to me than anything.  If you had basketball coaches willingly engaging in academic fraud, whether or not they are in the Hall of Fame, they should be fired for cause.

What is interesting is that Paterno and Boeheim had wins vacated by the NCAA.

So what did the NCAA do in Paterno's case - vacate the wins, wait a couple years, then restore the wins. I fully expect Boeheim's wins to be restored as well.

If the NCAA can overlook tacit acceptance of pedophilia within a football program they will forgive Syracuse for not holding kids accountable for classroom performance and how they managed their substance abuse program.

Unlike at UNC the Syracuse kids actually went to a legitimate class and the professor gave them a bad grade!

I think the real end game here for Marquette sports fans is the legitimacy of the NCAA as the governor of collegiate sports.

[mu03eng]

I absolutely love that Emmert and the NCAA are having to deal with this. They, in part, created this monster both in their lack of compliance engagement and in choosing to go after matters that did not impact student athletics.

Legacy and Dean Smith's reputation should not matter one wink, certainly didn't in the Paterno case, why should it matter in UNC's case?

The question is for the NCAA whether they follow their precedent of punishing for things that are outside of the realm of the student-athlete. If so UNC might need the death penalty give the wide-spread nature and the length of time its been purported. The only thing that probably bails the NCAA out is the confusing and complex nature of what was going on, the public demand for "justice" probably won't be there.

[GGGG]

The NCAAs members are the NCAA. They don't want strict compliance.

[Lennys Tap]

I think my friend's point is that Wojo is very highly regarded by Duke's power elite and, more than any other K assistant, is considered the heir apparent.

Duke is like Michigan - they want a Duke man.

This wanting a "Duke man" or a "Michigan man" or any other kind of "man" is a vanity of small thinkers IMO.

Fritz Crisler had the highest winning % of any Michigan coach (71-16-3, .805) and they named the basketball arena after him. He's not a "Michigan man" - he went to University of Chicago. Bo Shembechler was #1 in the modern era (194-48-5, .796) - Miami, O. man. Bump Elliot was from Purdue, Gary Moeller (shudder) was from Ohio State and Lloyd Carr went to Missouri for 3 years before finishing at Northern Michigan.

As for Duke, they've been to 16 Final Fours and won 5 national championships - none with a "Duke man" at the helm. Vic Bubas started at Illinois and transferred to (shudder) N.C. State. Bill Foster went to Elizabethtown College and Coach K was an Army man.

Jim Harbaugh will succeed at UM because he's a proven winner as a football coach. That he matriculated at the university may be a "feel good" story for the alumni but it's really beside the point. And if Duke puts one of their ex players/assistants ahead of guys like Brad Stevens (and lots of others) on their "wish list" because they are "Duke men" they will live to regret it.

[Loose Cannon]

Wojo only gets the easy wins

Yes Sir, I predicted 31 Wins last year he did not Deliver.

[mu03eng]

The NCAAs members are the NCAA. They don't want strict compliance.

While true, due to increased public awareness and NCAA mis-steps....that may no longer be a tenable position.

[Chicos' Buzz Scandal Countdown]

This wanting a "Duke man" or a "Michigan man" or any other kind of "man" is a vanity of small thinkers IMO.

Fritz Crisler had the highest winning % of any Michigan coach (71-16-3, .805) and they named the basketball arena after him. He's not a "Michigan man" - he went to University of Chicago. Bo Shembechler was #1 in the modern era (194-48-5, .796) - Miami, O. man. Bump Elliot was from Purdue, Gary Moeller (shudder) was from Ohio State and Lloyd Carr went to Missouri for 3 years before finishing at Northern Michigan.

As for Duke, they've been to 16 Final Fours and won 5 national championships - none with a "Duke man" at the helm. Vic Bubas started at Illinois and transferred to (shudder) N.C. State. Bill Foster went to Elizabethtown College and Coach K was an Army man.

Jim Harbaugh will succeed at UM because he's a proven winner as a football coach. That he matriculated at the university may be a "feel good" story for the alumni but it's really beside the point. And if Duke puts one of their ex players/assistants ahead of guys like Brad Stevens (and lots of others) on their "wish list" because they are "Duke men" they will live to regret it.

Very well put

[Benny B]

While true, due to increased public awareness and NCAA mis-steps....that may no longer be a tenable position.

Especially in the era of budget shortfalls... no NCAA member wants the scrutiny of DC.

[MU82]

This wanting a "Duke man" or a "Michigan man" or any other kind of "man" is a vanity of small thinkers IMO.

Fritz Crisler had the highest winning % of any Michigan coach (71-16-3, .805) and they named the basketball arena after him. He's not a "Michigan man" - he went to University of Chicago. Bo Shembechler was #1 in the modern era (194-48-5, .796) - Miami, O. man. Bump Elliot was from Purdue, Gary Moeller (shudder) was from Ohio State and Lloyd Carr went to Missouri for 3 years before finishing at Northern Michigan.

As for Duke, they've been to 16 Final Fours and won 5 national championships - none with a "Duke man" at the helm. Vic Bubas started at Illinois and transferred to (shudder) N.C. State. Bill Foster went to Elizabethtown College and Coach K was an Army man.

Jim Harbaugh will succeed at UM because he's a proven winner as a football coach. That he matriculated at the university may be a "feel good" story for the alumni but it's really beside the point. And if Duke puts one of their ex players/assistants ahead of guys like Brad Stevens (and lots of others) on their "wish list" because they are "Duke men" they will live to regret it.

While I agree with the spirit (and most of the other stuff) in this post, we don't know yet that Wojo will still be a lesser coach than Stevens 5 years from now, or whenever K retires.

As for the claim (not by you but by others) that Wojo's building of Marquette's program is "not even close" to K's building of Duke's program ...

K's first three years at Duke produced records of 17–13, 10-17 and 11–17. He didn't make the tourney until his fourth season and didn't make the Final four until his sixth. Only then did his "legend" really begin.

The way I see it, Wojo's building of Marquette's program actually is ahead of K's pace, and he's doing it while facing stiffer competition for recruits.

I am not saying Wojo will surpass K -- that's silliness -- or even Stevens. Heck, I'm not even saying Wojo will turn out to be a good coach, though I hope he will and believe he has a chance to.

What I'm saying is that it does a disservice to him to dismiss him already as not being "great coach material" down the line. It's simply too early to tell.

If there had been a DukeScoop in 1983 and if those D-Scoopers had power to hire or fire coaches, there never would have been a fourth season and there never would have been a Coach K as we have come to know him.

[#UnleashSean]

Why should the NCAA care?  It should be part of his legacy if true (i.e. Joe Paterno)

So they'll strike when he's dead?

[Herman Cain]

I am told this went back more than three decades and that Dean was more involved in constructing the fraud than just a simple consumer.

My buddy is a Dookie, hell, he's on the Law School's Board of Visitors, but he is also a very rational, thoughtful lawyer and VC who isn't given to hyperbole.

If he says that Deano was actively involved in creating the fraud I would trust his intel because he is very well connected and speaks in the measured tenor and cadence of discerning counsel.

I am sure your friend is a good guy but as a lawyer he of all people knows that the details on this case are being held very close to the vest.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

If there had been a DukeScoop in 1983 and if those D-Scoopers had power to hire or fire coaches, there never would have been a fourth season and there never would have been a Coach K as we have come to know him.

DukeScoop - Priceless!!!!

[keefe]

I am sure your friend is a good guy but as a lawyer he of all people knows that the details on this case are being held very close to the vest.

He related what he knows. The key point being this goes back to Smith and is a lot worse than what is being said.

He never claimed to have the full sight picture.

[Marqevans]

You are probably referring to Sam Gilbert. Let me put it this way - Marquette had its own Sam Gilberts during Al's time.

To compare UCLA to UNC is specious because UNC's crime was academic fraud. And it went on for decades. UCLA and Marquette players actually went to class.

You mean "Horton Roe" was a legitimate course? No wonder I got a "C" in it.

[keefe]

You mean "Horton Roe" was a legitimate course? No wonder I got a "C" in it.

You didn't...

[Marqevans]

You didn't...

Yes I did! Got kicked out of class one day playing "the name game" .  The chick next to me started laughing at one of my answers.  He came running up the aisle like a fat old nun and kicked us both out of class for the day.  All the while his dog sat on the podium keeping an eye on the rest of the class!

[Lennys Tap]

You didn't...

My best semester (by far) at MU was straight As but for a B in a Horton Roe class - too many cut classes.