collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by Uncle Rico
[Today at 07:26:46 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by Gato78
[Today at 07:25:10 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Goose
[Today at 07:05:04 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by Daniel
[Today at 07:04:13 PM]


Where is Marquette? by NickelDimer
[Today at 07:02:50 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by Judge Smails
[Today at 07:02:27 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by the eagle
[Today at 06:05:16 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: UNC Investigation  (Read 40044 times)

StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #175 on: August 05, 2016, 09:33:53 AM »
Perhaps if colleges and universities held student-athletes to the same standard as they do all of their other students, tutoring and summer school would be as important to parents and coaches as AAU leagues.

I assume you're talking about admissions standards, since you're responding to my post.  I think it probably varies wildly from school to school.  Being an athlete is simply one "extra" that can put someone over the hump.  The fact of the matter is that the elite universities receive thousands of applications that are, essentially identical.  When there are 3000 spots and you've got 20,000 applicants -- many of whom have 4.0+, 32+ ACT, etc. -- an applicant has to have something to stand out from the crowd.  Maybe it takes a great essay or interview; maybe it takes unique and meaningful volunteer experience; maybe it takes being the first person in your family to attend college; maybe it takes being a concert violinist; and, yes, maybe it takes being an athlete that can help the team.  In the schools we dealt with, the student still had to have excellent academic credentials.  Honestly, when a university has 5-10 very accomplished applicants for every slot, summer school and tutoring aren't going to do all that much to differentiate you from the other applicants.

That said, I agree with you in principle -- and my kids did take summer classes and have tutoring.  Students should work hard in the classroom and do everything they can to have the type of academic credentials to get into the schools they want to attend.  That's the most important thing and should be the starting point.  But if they've got their sights set on schools with extremely low acceptance rates, they better have something else to set them apart from the masses.  For some, sports does the trick.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

warriorchick

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 8067
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #176 on: August 05, 2016, 10:34:02 AM »
I assume you're talking about admissions standards, since you're responding to my post.  I think it probably varies wildly from school to school.  Being an athlete is simply one "extra" that can put someone over the hump.  The fact of the matter is that the elite universities receive thousands of applications that are, essentially identical.  When there are 3000 spots and you've got 20,000 applicants -- many of whom have 4.0+, 32+ ACT, etc. -- an applicant has to have something to stand out from the crowd.  Maybe it takes a great essay or interview; maybe it takes unique and meaningful volunteer experience; maybe it takes being the first person in your family to attend college; maybe it takes being a concert violinist; and, yes, maybe it takes being an athlete that can help the team.  In the schools we dealt with, the student still had to have excellent academic credentials.  Honestly, when a university has 5-10 very accomplished applicants for every slot, summer school and tutoring aren't going to do all that much to differentiate you from the other applicants.

That said, I agree with you in principle -- and my kids did take summer classes and have tutoring.  Students should work hard in the classroom and do everything they can to have the type of academic credentials to get into the schools they want to attend.  That's the most important thing and should be the starting point.  But if they've got their sights set on schools with extremely low acceptance rates, they better have something else to set them apart from the masses.  For some, sports does the trick.

I think you will admit though, that giving an applicant an edge because he was an Eagle Scout over those with similar scores and no remarkable extracurriculars is different than accepting a 4-star basketball prospect whose ACT score is 12 points lower than the median of everyone else who is accepted. 

My point is that a lot of effort and money is put into improving the athletic skills of kids who are Division 1 caliber.  Imagine what would happen if the NCAA said that any college student whose SAT score and/or GPA was more than a certain number of standard deviations lower than that that the median of all students would be ineligible for athletics. I could see universities pouring money into inner-city schools and educational programs.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 10:55:02 AM by warriorchick »
Have some patience, FFS.

StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #177 on: August 05, 2016, 11:09:39 AM »
I think you will admit though, that giving an applicant an edge because he was an Eagle Scout over those with similar scores and no remarkable extracurriculars is different than accepting a 4-star basketball project whose ACT score is 12 points lower than the median of everyone else who is accepted. 

My point is that a lot of effort and money is put into improving the athletic skills of kids who are Division 1 caliber.  Imagine what would happen if the NCAA said that any college student whose SAT score and/or GPA was more than a certain number of standard deviations lower than that that the median of all students would be ineligible for athletics. I could see universities pouring money into inner-city schools and educational programs.

I absolutely admit that.  I wish I had a son that was going to be a lottery pick so that I would have a better idea how those kids get treated.  Sadly, I don't have that frame of reference.  I simply had a daughter who was good enough at a non-revenue sport to separate herself from the pack of applicants (although her class hasn't, technically, applied yet).  That fact helped her gain admission into a school that her brother -- who had slightly better grades and test scores -- could not get admitted to.  I suspect if he'd been an Eagle Scout he probably could have gotten in.  Based only on my experience and the schools we were dealing with, the athletics helps on the margins.  It won't necessarily get an unqualified kid in, but it will help a qualified kid jump ahead of other qualified kids.  I have told many people that if they want to get their kid money for college, focus on the classroom.  The odds are much, much better.  More importantly, the skills they'll develop in the classroom will serve them much better in life than the ability to run fast, jump high or hit a ball.

But I suspect that my daughter's experience is virtually nothing like that of the typical 4-star basketball recruit.  And I have little doubt that some of the men's basketball players at my daughter's future school have academic records that wouldn't even be considered for athletes in other sports.

I like the "standard deviation" idea.  It would be interesting to see how that would play out.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #178 on: August 05, 2016, 12:24:34 PM »
One of the stories that is telling is that of one of our local kids where I live. The young man was heavily recruited for his football skills. He had interest from many universities and ultimately chose the University of Notre Dame. There, he turned out to be a pretty good wide receiver with at least some potential for the NFL.

The young man didn't make it out of Notre Dame. He was compelled to leave the university as part of an academic irregularity.

To Notre Dame's credit, they expect their athletes to go to the same classes and meet the same standards as other students. A UNC phantom program in Whatever Studies doesn't fly at Notre Dame (as it would not at Marquette). I can't believe the young man's ACT was on par with the median for incoming Notre Dame freshmen, otherwise there would not have been a general reason for an academic irregularity. He probably should have gone to Alabama!

I recall Vanderbilt wrestled with this issue a number of years ago when a high school All-American had decided to enroll at Vandy and play basketball. The university would not admit him -- over the strenuous objections of the athletic department -- because the player was not capable in the eyes of admissions of doing Vanderbilt work. The player ended up at the University of Kentucky, where he later was all-SEC and ended up in the NBA.

The point is that schools have three choices. (1) Recruit young men who can do the academic work of their school, (2) Create programs for athletes that are below the standards of the university (aka, UNC) or (3) leave the academically less gifted for the UNLVs of the world. Given the money that UNC and other elite basketball programs make, Item 3 is not an option for most.

In Marquette's case, I give us a lot of credit for working hard with our players -- and the proof is in the performance. Our guys do well after MU. But it's easy to compromise, grant bogus degrees and hope for the best.

In the case of UNC, before someone sanctions UNC, what happened to the athletes who graduated with significant classes in the so-called Phantom Courses? I'm not justifying it, but did they do well outside of basketball, or not?

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #179 on: August 05, 2016, 12:39:10 PM »
One of the stories that is telling is that of one of our local kids where I live. The young man was heavily recruited for his football skills. He had interest from many universities and ultimately chose the University of Notre Dame. There, he turned out to be a pretty good wide receiver with at least some potential for the NFL.

The young man didn't make it out of Notre Dame. He was compelled to leave the university as part of an academic irregularity.

To Notre Dame's credit, they expect their athletes to go to the same classes and meet the same standards as other students. A UNC phantom program in Whatever Studies doesn't fly at Notre Dame (as it would not at Marquette). I can't believe the young man's ACT was on par with the median for incoming Notre Dame freshmen, otherwise there would not have been a general reason for an academic irregularity. He probably should have gone to Alabama!

I recall Vanderbilt wrestled with this issue a number of years ago when a high school All-American had decided to enroll at Vandy and play basketball. The university would not admit him -- over the strenuous objections of the athletic department -- because the player was not capable in the eyes of admissions of doing Vanderbilt work. The player ended up at the University of Kentucky, where he later was all-SEC and ended up in the NBA.

The point is that schools have three choices. (1) Recruit young men who can do the academic work of their school, (2) Create programs for athletes that are below the standards of the university (aka, UNC) or (3) leave the academically less gifted for the UNLVs of the world. Given the money that UNC and other elite basketball programs make, Item 3 is not an option for most.

In Marquette's case, I give us a lot of credit for working hard with our players -- and the proof is in the performance. Our guys do well after MU. But it's easy to compromise, grant bogus degrees and hope for the best.

In the case of UNC, before someone sanctions UNC, what happened to the athletes who graduated with significant classes in the so-called Phantom Courses? I'm not justifying it, but did they do well outside of basketball, or not?

The average football or basketball player at Notre Dame is NOT at the same level academically as the average student. And I'm sure that, for electives anyway, ND athletes are steered toward less demand classes, "friendly to the athletic department" teachers or both. In Al's day it was, for example, Horton Roe. Three hours of a guaranteed "A" every other semester helps.

We can argue over which schools are the biggest hypocrites - but not that everyone who plays big boy sports is one. That's a fact.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2016, 12:41:59 PM »
(2) Create programs for athletes that are below the standards of the university (aka, UNC)

Dgies, you've said this twice now. I might be misunderstanding so please correct me if I'm way off in left field. UNC did not just create "programs that are below the standards of the university." They created classes that literally only existed on paper. The students did not attend any classes but got credit as if they did. There were also multiple cases of athletes having papers written for them. This was pure academic fraud on a systematic level.

I have no issue with schools who have majors that are significantly easier than other. I don't have any issue with athletic programs recommending those easy majors to athletes. Do you really think its a coincidence that a vast majority of MUBB players end up as communications majors? (I can say that, I am proud grad of the Communications school :D). But creating a system where the athletes aren't even going through the motions of getting an education, that is something else entirely. It is an unfair competitive advantage and its extremely abusive of the players who took those classes (and in some cases were forced to take those classes).

« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:02:05 PM by TAMU Eagle »
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2016, 01:03:13 PM »
Here's a question about sports/academics at Marquette if anyone knows...

Most of the schools we visited had a program in place where at the beginning of the semester athletes would give the professor a form listing all the classes they would miss because of competition.  There were no consequences for missing those classes.  Tests could be taken early or made up, pop quizzes could be made up, etc.  Many schools really stressed this policy.

Some schools didn't have that.  When asked how the schools deal with missed classes, the response was, "you're on your own...you'll have to work that out with your professors."  It was clear that through speaking with older teammates and others you could figure out which professors tend to be more understanding and which to avoid, but there was no formal intervention by the athletics department (again...the revenue athletes might have a different experience).

Everyone seems to have tutors, study hall, etc.  But not everyone automatically excuses athletes for competition-based absences.

How does Marquette handle that?
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #182 on: August 05, 2016, 01:10:22 PM »
I think it is much more like the former. 

mu03eng

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 5049
    • Scrambled Eggs Podcast
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #183 on: August 05, 2016, 01:11:07 PM »
Here's a question about sports/academics at Marquette if anyone knows...

Most of the schools we visited had a program in place where at the beginning of the semester athletes would give the professor a form listing all the classes they would miss because of competition.  There were no consequences for missing those classes.  Tests could be taken early or made up, pop quizzes could be made up, etc.  Many schools really stressed this policy.

Some schools didn't have that.  When asked how the schools deal with missed classes, the response was, "you're on your own...you'll have to work that out with your professors."  It was clear that through speaking with older teammates and others you could figure out which professors tend to be more understanding and which to avoid, but there was no formal intervention by the athletics department (again...the revenue athletes might have a different experience).

Everyone seems to have tutors, study hall, etc.  But not everyone automatically excuses athletes for competition-based absences.

How does Marquette handle that?

If I remember correctly, they work with the professors to pre-identify conflicts and create a schedule for the student athletes that makes sense to be successful.

One thing I want to call out separately.....students migrating to the easier class or prof is universal to students not just student athletes. We always talked in the engineering schools about what prof to have for thermo or system dynamics or whatever to have a better experience or easier time. To call out student athletes for doing the same thing is silly.

(Not saying you are doing this Still)
"A Plan? Oh man, I hate plans. That means were gonna have to do stuff. Can't we just have a strategy......or a mission statement."

StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #184 on: August 05, 2016, 01:41:35 PM »
If I remember correctly, they work with the professors to pre-identify conflicts and create a schedule for the student athletes that makes sense to be successful.

One thing I want to call out separately.....students migrating to the easier class or prof is universal to students not just student athletes. We always talked in the engineering schools about what prof to have for thermo or system dynamics or whatever to have a better experience or easier time. To call out student athletes for doing the same thing is silly.

(Not saying you are doing this Still)

Oh, I totally agree.  And when I was at Marquette I totally screwed this up.  When it came time for me to fulfill my science requirement (and I put it off until junior year), I figured, "in high school, biology was much easier than physics."  Big mistake.  In keeping with the theme of this thread, many people were amazed that I made it through two years at Marquette without hearing the term, "basketball physics."  But I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to get a more favorable (i.e., easier) class and it certainly isn't limited to athletes.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:11:10 PM by StillAWarrior »
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #185 on: August 05, 2016, 02:03:56 PM »
One thing I want to call out separately.....students migrating to the easier class or prof is universal to students not just student athletes. We always talked in the engineering schools about what prof to have for thermo or system dynamics or whatever to have a better experience or easier time. To call out student athletes for doing the same thing is silly.

(Not saying you are doing this Still)

100% true. It's not lazy, it's strategic!
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #186 on: August 05, 2016, 02:28:30 PM »
Dgies, you've said this twice now. I might be misunderstanding so please correct me if I'm way off in left field. UNC did not just create "programs that are below the standards of the university." They created classes that literally only existed on paper. The students did not attend any classes but got credit as if they did. There were also multiple cases of athletes having papers written for them. This was pure academic fraud on a systematic level.

I have no issue with schools who have majors that are significantly easier than other. I don't have any issue with athletic programs recommending those easy majors to athletes. Do you really think its a coincidence that a vast majority of MUBB players end up as communications majors? (I can say that, I am proud grad of the Communications school :D). But creating a system where the athletes aren't even going through the motions of getting an education, that is something else entirely. It is an unfair competitive advantage and its extremely abusive of the players who took those classes (and in some cases were forced to take those classes).

OK, ask the risk of opening yet another Pandora's Box, Horton Roe probably fell into the same category of a class that existed on paper but didn't teach anyone anything. I'm a proud Journalism major and I was kinda told, "No Horton for you, Big Boy" because his classes were auto-As provided you showed up. At 8:00 a.m. and classical music, the snoring in his class reportedly was enough to cause concerns about sleep apnea.

Others in my family took Horton and the debate lasted for years whether Horton was a real class or not. There was an urban legend of someone who turned a paper in with three pages of narrative, a cover and a bibliography in back and 16 blank sheets in between. And got an "A". Somehow I doubt that but if it is true, yikes. We were no different than UNC then!

One of the better urban legends around MU was when "Easy" Ed Rosseau and his wife taught Ethics (Phil 104). Everyone wanted Easy Ed but the course catalog just had a professor's last name in it. Some dude signed for Phil 104 with Easy Ed and saw Mrs. Rosseau teaching the class. He barked out, "Hey, you're not Easy Ed!" Professor Rosseau looked back and said, "That's right! I'm Mrs. Easy Ed!" I still laugh at that one!
« Last Edit: August 05, 2016, 02:31:48 PM by dgies9156 »

StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #187 on: August 05, 2016, 02:51:14 PM »
...because his classes were auto-As provided you showed up...We were no different than UNC then!

The highlighted phrase distinguishes Marquette from what was going on at UNC.  With Horton, at least there was a class to show up for.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

dgies9156

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4022
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #188 on: August 05, 2016, 02:57:22 PM »
The highlighted phrase distinguishes Marquette from what was going on at UNC.  With Horton, at least there was a class to show up for.

If you want to call it a class, OK. Your prerogative.

With apologies to Capital One, "How many Hortons are in your GPA?"

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 12220
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #189 on: August 05, 2016, 03:02:52 PM »
The highlighted phrase distinguishes Marquette from what was going on at UNC.  With Horton, at least there was a class to show up for.

Yeah, in the "rankings of what is essentially academic fraud" UNC is #1. Those Horton Roe courses barely made it into the top 5. But it still was a joke, a fraud. Being outraged by something a little worse but designed to accomplish the same outcome seems a little much.

StillAWarrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4205
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2016, 03:23:50 PM »
If you want to call it a class, OK. Your prerogative.

I probably wasn't too clear.  It wasn't my intent to defend Marquette there or to suggest the situation at UNC was really any worse.  But I can see how it came across that way.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

forgetful

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4726
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2016, 03:39:18 PM »
The highlighted phrase distinguishes Marquette from what was going on at UNC.  With Horton, at least there was a class to show up for.

This is actually key.  In theory there is nothing wrong with what Horton did.  In terms of accreditation, that class is fine, provided what the student is supposed to do is actually done (e.g. turn in a paper (can be blank).

GGGG

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 25207
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2016, 03:50:53 PM »
This is actually key.  In theory there is nothing wrong with what Horton did.  In terms of accreditation, that class is fine, provided what the student is supposed to do is actually done (e.g. turn in a paper (can be blank).


Not necessarily true.  You really don't understand accreditation as much as you think you do.

forgetful

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4726
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2016, 05:48:49 PM »

Not necessarily true.  You really don't understand accreditation as much as you think you do.

Yes I do.  I'm leaving out a few details as they relate to the specifics of this discussion.  The "not necessarily true" are not relevant to the UNC investigation or the Horton class.

rocket surgeon

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3654
  • NA of course
Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2016, 08:39:59 PM »
What consequences do you think there will be?

My understanding is that the schools, in order to keep the students "in line" academically, provide tutors, study time, and more-wink wink wink.  If left up to the schools, will they continue to try to give the students a blazin chance to get an education and to keep up with their classes with the rigorous schedule they demand
don't...don't don't don't don't

 

feedback