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Author Topic: UNC Investigation  (Read 40052 times)

keefe

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UNC Investigation
« on: April 05, 2016, 10:58:30 PM »
I was in Seattle today and ran into a friend who is on the Duke Law Board of Visitors and a major Duke hoops booster. He mentioned he shared my delight in Nova's win but also offered insight on the UNC academic fraud scandal. (He is also a big Marquette fan because of Wojo.)

According to him, the NCAA has characterized the UNC scandal as one of the very worst in its history and that the discussion is focused now on penalties. The problem is that this will destroy Dean Smith's legacy and the NCAA is hung up on how to address that.

For what it's worth, my friend also said that if Wojo does reasonably well at MU the word is he gets the Duke job.


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The Lens

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2016, 11:03:36 PM »
I was in Seattle today and ran into a friend who is on the Duke Law Board of Visitors and a major Duke hoops booster. He mentioned he shared my delight in Nova's win but also offered insight on the UNC academic fraud scandal. (He is also a big Marquette fan because of Wojo.)

According to him, the NCAA has characterized the UNC scandal as one of the very worst in its history and that the discussion is focused now on penalties. The problem is that this will destroy Dean Smith's legacy and the NCAA is hung up on how to address that.



Well they've protected Wooden's legacy for decades now so have to imagine this "investigation" will be pretty drawn out.
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keefe

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2016, 11:09:50 PM »

Well they've protected Wooden's legacy for decades now so have to imagine this "investigation" will be pretty drawn out.

You are probably referring to Sam Gilbert. Let me put it this way - Marquette had its own Sam Gilberts during Al's time.

To compare UCLA to UNC is specious because UNC's crime was academic fraud. And it went on for decades. UCLA and Marquette players actually went to class.


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Warriors10

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2016, 11:22:44 PM »
I was in Seattle today and ran into a friend who is on the Duke Law Board of Visitors and a major Duke hoops booster. He mentioned he shared my delight in Nova's win but also offered insight on the UNC academic fraud scandal. (He is also a big Marquette fan because of Wojo.)

According to him, the NCAA has characterized the UNC scandal as one of the very worst in its history and that the discussion is focused now on penalties. The problem is that this will destroy Dean Smith's legacy and the NCAA is hung up on how to address that.

For what it's worth, my friend also said that if Wojo does reasonably well at MU the word is he gets the Duke job.

Why should the NCAA care?  It should be part of his legacy if true (i.e. Joe Paterno)

Tugg Speedman

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2016, 11:26:19 PM »
For what it's worth, my friend also said that if Wojo does reasonably well at MU the word is he gets the Duke job.

Define reasonably well.  2 or 3 national championships? 

The worst job in the history of college basketball will be the job following Coach K at Duke.  Ask Mike Davis (followed Bobby Knight).  Ask Gene Bartow (followed John Wooden).  Ask Bill Guthridge (followed Dean Smith).  If you could, ask Hank Raymonds.

Wojo would be better off being the guy that follows the guy that followed coach K.  Or even the guy that follows the guy that follows the guy that follows Coach K.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 11:27:59 PM by Heisenberg »

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2016, 11:31:35 PM »
Define reasonably well.  2 or 3 national championships? 

The worst job in the history of college basketball will be the job following Coach K at Duke.  Ask Mike Davis (followed Bobby Knight).  Ask Gene Bartow (followed John Wooden).  Ask Bill Guthridge (followed Dean Smith).  If you could, ask Hank Raymonds.

Wojo would be better off being the guy that follows the guy that followed coach K.  Or even the guy that follows the guy that follows the guy that follows Coach K.
This. Want to be the guy that follows Warren Buffett?

Ask Tim Cook, Jeff Immelt, etc... Don't follow a legend.
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muguru

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2016, 11:37:53 PM »
Well with the results Wojo has delivered at MU so far, I don't think he has to worry about being the next guy at Duke, nor should Duke realistically consider him either. Wojo needs to worry about figuring out how to get his teams to win games at home again(or at all), before he can even think about being the next guy at Duke. He's got a long, LONG LONG way to go. From what i have seen so far, he seems in over his head to be quite honest.
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wildbillsb

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2016, 12:20:10 AM »
You are probably referring to Sam Gilbert. Let me put it this way - Marquette had its own Sam Gilberts during Al's time.

To compare UCLA to UNC is specious because UNC's crime was academic fraud. And it went on for decades. UCLA and Marquette players actually went to class.



As the father of a female Viking ESP -3 pilot (USNA '90), I thank you for your dogged pursuit of the academic impropiety at UNC.
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bilsu

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 07:11:05 AM »
Well with the results Wojo has delivered at MU so far, I don't think he has to worry about being the next guy at Duke, nor should Duke realistically consider him either. Wojo needs to worry about figuring out how to get his teams to win games at home again(or at all), before he can even think about being the next guy at Duke. He's got a long, LONG LONG way to go. From what i have seen so far, he seems in over his head to be quite honest.
+1

GGGG

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2016, 07:37:36 AM »
I was in Seattle today and ran into a friend who is on the Duke Law Board of Visitors and a major Duke hoops booster. He mentioned he shared my delight in Nova's win but also offered insight on the UNC academic fraud scandal. (He is also a big Marquette fan because of Wojo.)

According to him, the NCAA has characterized the UNC scandal as one of the very worst in its history and that the discussion is focused now on penalties. The problem is that this will destroy Dean Smith's legacy and the NCAA is hung up on how to address that.


The problem with this scandal is that it is really bigger than the NCAA.  I am interested to see how they handle a case of systematic academic fraud, effecting both athletes and non-athletes, that goes back years.

Dawson Rental

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2016, 08:03:42 AM »

The problem with this scandal is that it is really bigger than the NCAA.  I am interested to see how they handle a case of systematic academic fraud, effecting both athletes and non-athletes, that goes back years.

The reference in your post to non-athletes made me wonder if they shouldn't be in trouble with whomever provides the school with academic accreditation.

I found the following article.

http://college.usatoday.com/2015/06/11/unc-probation-accreditation-agency/

I'm glad to see that this is hitting them where it should hurt a school the most - on the academic side.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Dawson Rental

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2016, 08:25:57 AM »
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

MU82

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2016, 08:38:53 AM »

The problem with this scandal is that it is really bigger than the NCAA.  I am interested to see how they handle a case of systematic academic fraud, effecting both athletes and non-athletes, that goes back years.

Excellent point, Sultan. I believe only about half of those who took the fake courses were athletes.

There have been some resignations and punishments regarding those involved and those who should have known better, but the athletic department hasn't been hit very hard yet.
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TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2016, 08:43:32 AM »
Well with the results Wojo has delivered at MU so far, I don't think he has to worry about being the next guy at Duke, nor should Duke realistically consider him either. Wojo needs to worry about figuring out how to get his teams to win games at home again(or at all), before he can even think about being the next guy at Duke. He's got a long, LONG LONG way to go. From what i have seen so far, he seems in over his head to be quite honest.

Wojo only gets the easy wins
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Eldon

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2016, 08:45:52 AM »
I really hope the come down hard on UNC.  I'm no UNC-hater or anything, but their violations are of the worst kind.  Far worse than Uncle Luke taking athletes to clubs, boat rides, and hookers.

If some people feel that it is not fair to the kids who are currently there, then let those kids transfer without losing a year like the NCAA did with PSU football.

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2016, 08:49:18 AM »
If some people feel that it is not fair to the kids who are currently there, then let those kids transfer without losing a year like the NCAA did with PSU football.

They have any PFs we should be talking to?

keefe

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2016, 09:00:46 AM »
Why should the NCAA care?  It should be part of his legacy if true (i.e. Joe Paterno)

We did not discuss Paterno but from what I was told Smith not only knew about the fraud but was an active participant.

I think, and this is just my unlearned opinion, is that Paterno looked the other way in a perverted sin of omission while Smith's was as a willing participant in a sin of commission.   


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willie warrior

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2016, 09:02:47 AM »

The problem with this scandal is that it is really bigger than the NCAA.  I am interested to see how they handle a case of systematic academic fraud, effecting both athletes and non-athletes, that goes back years.
That will be the NCAA's out. Because it involves athletes and non-athletes, they will use that rationale to stick it to the school in general with big penalties and water down the penalties to the basketball program--because after all, it's UNC, it's UNC! In fact, if it is a school wide deal, should not a different governing body be involved?
Just having a big problem believing the NCAA will give anything out to the basketball program other than loss of a few scholarships. So then they can only bring in 1 or 2 top 20 types per year instead of their usual 3.
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keefe

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2016, 09:08:26 AM »
Define reasonably well.  2 or 3 national championships? 

The worst job in the history of college basketball will be the job following Coach K at Duke.  Ask Mike Davis (followed Bobby Knight).  Ask Gene Bartow (followed John Wooden).  Ask Bill Guthridge (followed Dean Smith).  If you could, ask Hank Raymonds.

Wojo would be better off being the guy that follows the guy that followed coach K.  Or even the guy that follows the guy that follows the guy that follows Coach K.

I think my friend's point is that Wojo is very highly regarded by Duke's power elite and, more than any other K assistant, is considered the heir apparent.

Duke is like Michigan - they want a Duke man.

My friend's point is that Wojo doesn't need to rub the table at Marquette. Prove he can run a clean, winning program at Marquette. If you look at Wojo's track record thus far he has proven he can recruit, is a good citizen, his players and assistants are good citizens, his kids go to class and graduate, he plays well with others, and he can win.

From what I heard, Wojo needs to demonstrate he can run a program according to the Duke formula. I would say thus far he is following that script very well.   


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GGGG

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2016, 09:14:05 AM »
We did not discuss Paterno but from what I was told Smith not only knew about the fraud but was an active participant.

I think, and this is just my unlearned opinion, is that Paterno looked the other way in a perverted sin of omission while Smith's was as a willing participant in a sin of commission.   


Did this go back 20 years?  Cause Smith retired 20 years ago.

And Paterno was told from an eye witness than he had a child molester in Sandusky but still let him hang around the program. 

GGGG

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2016, 09:14:41 AM »
That will be the NCAA's out. Because it involves athletes and non-athletes, they will use that rationale to stick it to the school in general with big penalties and water down the penalties to the basketball program--because after all, it's UNC, it's UNC! In fact, if it is a school wide deal, should not a different governing body be involved?
Just having a big problem believing the NCAA will give anything out to the basketball program other than loss of a few scholarships. So then they can only bring in 1 or 2 top 20 types per year instead of their usual 3.


I have a feeling you might be right.

Coleman

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2016, 09:16:39 AM »
I think my friend's point is that Wojo is very highly regarded by Duke's power elite and, more than any other K assistant, is considered the heir apparent.

Duke is like Michigan - they want a Duke man.

My friend's point is that Wojo doesn't need to rub the table at Marquette. Prove he can run a clean, winning program at Marquette. If you look at Wojo's track record thus far he has proven he can recruit, is a good citizen, his players and assistants are good citizens, his kids go to class and graduate, he plays well with others, and he can win.

From what I heard, Wojo needs to demonstrate he can run a program according to the Duke formula. I would say thus far he is following that script very well.

He is following the Duke formula in all but one way (and the most important way)...consistent success. He has not made the postseason, much less have any sort of sustained success in the NCAA tournament.

I am no Wojo critic. I am a firm believer that you need to give a college coach at least 4 years to have a full team of his recruits, and think he has done a reasonably ok job so far (B- or C+ if you had to push me for a grade), but to say he is heir apparent at Duke seems premature at best.

He may have a lower bar than other potential candidates. Perhaps he just has to make a few NCAA tournaments, make a run to the Sweet 16, and he'll be in, while others would have to have a Final Four on their resume. That could be the case. But he hasn't even come close to hitting that lower bar yet.

keefe

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2016, 09:17:35 AM »


As the father of a female Viking ESP -3 pilot (USNA '90), I thank you for your dogged pursuit of the academic impropiety at UNC.

I have hitched a couple rides in Hoovers in my time. That unique vacuum cleaner sound they make is the same as the Warthog - they both use the GE TF 34 power plants that sip fuel and are very quiet.

Despite the grief we give Ring Knockers those guys and gals earned their seats at the table. I am sure you are very proud of your daughter and you should be.


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keefe

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2016, 09:22:17 AM »

The problem with this scandal is that it is really bigger than the NCAA.  I am interested to see how they handle a case of systematic academic fraud, effecting both athletes and non-athletes, that goes back years.

Precisely. And this one required the active participation of not just supposed students but University Presidents, Academic Deans, faculty, administrators, coaches...

This wasn't paying students; this was manufacturing degrees.

And your point is spot on - UNC's status as a legitimate university is in play. You expect this from the on-line for profit "colleges" but not from a nationally respected university.

   


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GGGG

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Re: UNC Investigation
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2016, 09:24:46 AM »
He is following the Duke formula in all but one way (and the most important way)...consistent success. He has not made the postseason, much less have any sort of sustained success in the NCAA tournament.

I am no Wojo critic. I am a firm believer that you need to give a college coach at least 4 years to have a full team of his recruits, and think he has done a reasonably ok job so far (B- or C+ if you had to push me for a grade), but to say he is heir apparent at Duke seems premature at best.

He may have a lower bar than other potential candidates. Perhaps he just has to make a few NCAA tournaments, make a run to the Sweet 16, and he'll be in, while others would have to have a Final Four on their resume. That could be the case. But he hasn't even come close to hitting that lower bar yet.


Right.  There has been progress but results are needed.  Coach K didn't get to the NCAAs until year four and had losing records in years two and three.

 

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