MLB 2016

[TallTitan34]

The reason I didn't vote for Bryant is that well,  Arenado is better.  A lot better.  In every way.    There is no one I would vote for over Arenado.  In my opinion he is All Star 1A this year.  I would vote for him over every other player at this point.  There is one reason to vote for Bryant over Arenado.  That reason, is that you are a Cub fan and you want your guy in the game.  Which is fine.  It is the All Star game. 

Just throwing it out there but Bryant leads the NL with a 3.9 fWAR.  Arenado is at 3.5.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Just throwing it out there but Bryant leads the NL with a 3.9 fWAR.  Arenado is at 3.5.

Their overall numbers are very similar and Bryant doesn't have the luxury of hitting at Coors. Arenado is the better 3B defensively but Bryant is also good at 3rd and can play the OF and 1B.

Can't go wrong with either player but I'll take KB.

[buckchuckler]

Their overall numbers are very similar and Bryant doesn't have the luxury of hitting at Coors. Arenado is the better 3B defensively but Bryant is also good at 3rd and can play the OF and 1B.

Can't go wrong with either player but I'll take KB.

I understand why you would say that, but if you dig into the numbers a little bit, you will find similar things with Bryant's numbers.  For instance, while yes, Arenado plays in Colorado, Bryant has done much of his damage against the completely helpless pitching staff of the Cincinnati Reds.  The Reds have the worst ERA in the league (yes worse than the Rockies, and by a significant margin), they have allowed the most HR (averaging almost 2 per game!), and have the worst WHIP.  Bryant has over 20% of his doubles against the Reds, 33% of his HRs, and over 30% or his RBI against the Reds.  All that production in 12% of his games.  They are great games, they happened.  But that seems similar to tearing it up in Colorado.  Does that discount his numbers?  No of course not, but that is quite a bit of production against a really terrible pitching staff.

As for Bryant playing multiple positions, well, there is a reason Arenado doesn't spend time in the OF or at 1st.  3rd is a much more demanding defensively and more important than LF or 1B.  Bryant is not in the same category as Arenado defensively.

Bryant absolutely deserves to be an All Star.  But Arenado is one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game.  In my opinion, Bryant is not at that level.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I understand why you would say that, but if you dig into the numbers a little bit, you will find similar things with Bryant's numbers.  For instance, while yes, Arenado plays in Colorado, Bryant has done much of his damage against the completely helpless pitching staff of the Cincinnati Reds.  The Reds have the worst ERA in the league (yes worse than the Rockies, and by a significant margin), they have allowed the most HR (averaging almost 2 per game!), and have the worst WHIP.  Bryant has over 20% of his doubles against the Reds, 33% of his HRs, and over 30% or his RBI against the Reds.  All that production in 12% of his games.  They are great games, they happened.  But that seems similar to tearing it up in Colorado.  Does that discount his numbers?  No of course not, but that is quite a bit of production against a really terrible pitching staff.

As for Bryant playing multiple positions, well, there is a reason Arenado doesn't spend time in the OF or at 1st.  3rd is a much more demanding defensively and more important than LF or 1B.  Bryant is not in the same category as Arenado defensively.

Bryant absolutely deserves to be an All Star.  But Arenado is one of the top 2 or 3 players in the game.  In my opinion, Bryant is not at that level.

We can agree to disagree, and of course part of me choosing Bryant is I am Cubs fan.  And yes, playing half of your games at Coors is a much bigger factor than being really productive against a poor team, in my opinion.   

And while Arenado is better defensively at 3B you are really discounting the value of Bryant's versatility.  It is huge.  My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner.  Both excellent players and right now Bryant does have the slight lead in WAR.  I'm sure we can both cherry pick stats to support each view.   

[buckchuckler]

My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner.   

Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?

Admittedly, the first I had heard of this metric was 10 minutes ago, but FanGraphs uses something called "Ultimate Base Running," (which they list as BsR), accounting for the value a player adds to a team through base running.  Bryant is actually 17th in all of MLB; Arrenado is 115th.

Arrenado
2015 -.9
2016 -1

Bryant
2015 7.5
2016 3.0

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Just curious, is this based on anything other than your wanting it to be true?

See above post.  Bryant is widely considered an excellent base runner and I knew there are metrics on it, I just didn't bother to look it up.  Appreciate the snotty question, though. 

[buckchuckler]

See above post.  Bryant is widely considered an excellent base runner and I knew there are metrics on it, I just didn't bother to look it up.  Appreciate the snotty question, though.

Thanks for basically confirming your opinion was based on nothing!  Learning of a statistic after the fact does not mean your point was well informed at all. 

It seems like you knew nothing of Arenado and just were throwing crap against the wall.  Well, nice shot. 

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Thanks for basically confirming your opinion was based on nothing!  Learning of a statistic after the fact does not mean your point was well informed at all. 

It seems like you knew nothing of Arenado and just were throwing crap against the wall.  Well, nice shot.

Seriously?  Did you read my post?  My opinion was not based on nothing and it was not throwing crap against the wall.  I did not know the name of the metric.  That's quite different than not knowing if such a metric actually exists.

I have read multiple accounts of the value Bryant adds on the bases.  Plus, you know, watching most Cubs games it is pretty clear the value he adds on the base paths.  I would not have brought it up otherwise. 

While I haven't watched a ton of Rockies games I am very familiar with Arenado and know that his speed and baserunning are not considered an asset. 

Would you like to continue being a condescending turd or just accept you were wrong about that aspect of their games?

[buckchuckler]

Seriously?  Did you read my post?  My opinion was not based on nothing and it was not throwing crap against the wall.  I did not know the name of the metric.  That's quite different than not knowing if such a metric actually exists.

I have read multiple accounts of the value Bryant adds on the bases.  Plus, you know, watching most Cubs games it is pretty clear the value he adds on the base paths.  I would not have brought it up otherwise. 

While I haven't watched a ton of Rockies games I am very familiar with Arenado and know that his speed and baserunning are not considered an asset. 

Would you like to continue being a condescending turd or just accept you were wrong about that aspect of their games?

Well, you didn't know the name of the metric nor did you know where the players stood.  Seems like throwing crap against the wall to me.  Yeah, you knew Bryant was good, but you were completely speculating on Arenado. 

Also I wasn't wrong on anything.  I didn't comment on their base running skills.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Well, you didn't know the name of the metric nor did you know where the players stood.  Seems like throwing crap against the wall to me.  Yeah, you knew Bryant was good, but you were completely speculating on Arenado. 

Also I wasn't wrong on anything.  I didn't comment on their base running skills.

I'm sorry if knowing the metric exists but not knowing it's specific name takes away credibility.  I wouldn't have even mentioned baserunning if I didn't know the value Bryant provided.  I also knew Arenado didn't provide surplus value on the bases.  It wasn't speculation - it was being familiar with the player.  No, I didn't know the exact difference between the two so if that is "throwing crap against the wall" so be it.  I disagree, and that is what I felt you were wrong about. 

[MerrittsMustache]

No one asked but I'm going to inject myself into this debate.

VBMG's initial comment was "My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner." The comment is presumed to have been based on the fact that Bryant is known to be a very good base runner. At the same time, it appears likely that VBMG was not actually aware of Arenado's base-running abilities but was making a safe assumption that Bryant's were better. It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.

Final verdict: It was an educated crap-toss.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

No one asked but I'm going to inject myself into this debate.

VBMG's initial comment was "My guess is Bryant is also a much better base runner." The comment is presumed to have been based on the fact that Bryant is known to be a very good base runner. At the same time, it appears likely that VBMG was not actually aware of Arenado's base-running abilities but was making a safe assumption that Bryant's were better. It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.

Final verdict: It was an educated crap-toss.

Well maybe the verbiage I used should have been different. 

I think it was more than an educated crap-toss but no reason to continue debating the semantics. 

[Lennys Tap]

It would be like saying, "My guess is Aroldis Chapman has a much better fastball than..." Name any player and it's very likely going to be true that Chapman has a better fastball than that player, despite not even knowing who the other player is or how well he throws a fastball.

It would be like that if Bryant was regarded as the best baserunner in the game (like Chapman is regarded as having the best fastball).

He's not.

[Lennys Tap]

 

And while Arenado is better defensively at 3B you are really discounting the value of Bryant's versatility.  It is huge. 

I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.

[brandx]

I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.

I agree. KB's versatility adds nothing to his value. It simply allows Maddon to keep Bryant on the field when he wants to give other guys some playing time. Putting Bryant in LF so Tommy La Stella can get some innings at 3B does not make Bryant a more valuable player.

Baez is a utility player - Bryant is a 3rd baseman.

[buckchuckler]

MLB just spanked Boston on international signings as they were acting on the wrong side of a grey area.  5 prospects they signed have been declared free agents, while keeping the money Boston gave them.  Boston has been denied the right to pursue any international free agents this July 2 signing period. 

Pretty strong punishment by MLB. 

[buckchuckler]

Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today.  This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035.  That is just insane. 

[Lennys Tap]

Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today.  This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035.  That is just insane.

That's some pension.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I don't think being able to play "meh" defense at 3rd base AND the corner outfield positions is anywhere near "huge". Being one of the best ever at your primary position (Arenado) is, though.

Bryant's defense is not "meh", however. 

I agree. KB's versatility adds nothing to his value. It simply allows Maddon to keep Bryant on the field when he wants to give other guys some playing time. Putting Bryant in LF so Tommy La Stella can get some innings at 3B does not make Bryant a more valuable player.

Baez is a utility player - Bryant is a 3rd baseman.

KB's versatility adds nothing to his value?  That's ridiculous. 

[GGGG]

Also, today is a fun day, per terms of the contract he signed a million years ago, the Mets pay Bobby Bonilla 1 million dollars today.  This payout is scheduled to continue until 2035.  That is just insane. 

I read somewhere that the Mets owners loved to defer contracts because of the rates-of-return they were getting with Bernie Madoff.  Oops.

[brandx]

 

KB's versatility adds nothing to his value?  That's ridiculous.

What is the value? He's obviously the best 3B on the Cubs. His "versatility" means putting an inferior player at the position.

[MerrittsMustache]

What is the value? He's obviously the best 3B on the Cubs. His "versatility" means putting an inferior player at the position.

The Cubs have used 13 different players in LF this season, including 3 pitchers. Their star rookie catcher has started 4 games out there. Maddon moves guys around because he likes to push them out of their comfort zones. If Bryant played for basically any other manager, he'd be solely a 3B. He played 159 games in the minors, all of them at third. If Arenado played for Maddon, he'd likely see some time at first or even in the OF.

Bryant's "versatility" is primarily a product of Maddon's coaching style. Does it add to his value? Maybe but not necessarily. His primary value is, was, and always will be his bat.

[🏀]

MLB just spanked Boston on international signings as they were acting on the wrong side of a grey area.  5 prospects they signed have been declared free agents, while keeping the money Boston gave them.  Boston has been denied the right to pursue any international free agents this July 2 signing period. 

Pretty strong punishment by MLB. 

Yet still waiting on the MLB to address that Cardinals issue.

[brandx]

Bryant's "versatility" is primarily a product of Maddon's coaching style. Does it add to his value? Maybe but not necessarily. His primary value is, was, and always will be his bat.

Yup.