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Author Topic: JJJ  (Read 11210 times)

injuryBug

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #50 on: February 14, 2016, 08:53:49 AM »
This team has NCAA talent.  Its coaching has NIT talent.

Not the first time Wojo has blamed the players for complete lack of execution.  How about he takes at least some of the blame.

Wojo needs to get a more experienced coach on that sideline.  I have a bad feeling Wojo is more like Lavin.  A great recruiter who is not a very good in game coach.

Coach can only put his players in a position to succeed.  Once they take the court it is on the players to do their thing.  No idea who was at fault for not executing on the floor. 
Did wojo give 2 options on the play one for zone one for man or say we run this vs both man and zone?  A frosh PG comes out sees man instead of zone and makes an audible cause the defense changed.  That was one thing Buzz always said was at the end of game he wanted the players to just play. 

murara1994

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #51 on: February 14, 2016, 09:00:38 AM »

No.  There is no reason to call that timeout.  Marquette had scored on the last few possessions and just had a defensive stop.  Wojo should have let them play with the momentum and crowd on their side.

And you think 10 extra minutes 72 hours earlier made them fatigued?  They didn't have to travel either.

For whatever reason they were fatigued. Both coaches made comments about it. The team seemed sluggish to me also. Wherever and however you want to assign blame for that is up to you, I'm just trying to state it as fact.

brewcity77

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #52 on: February 14, 2016, 09:01:19 AM »
Yes, he loafs getting back on D and Creighton burned us and him more than once.

For those saying bad timeout, you would have said why no timeout if we didn't score. Also a theme in post game was fatigue so I have no problem calling a timeout on important possession to catch breath. Execution was the problem.

No, I wouldn't have. We have been a poor offensive team out of timeouts all season. I mentioned it at the time and pointed out to my wife and neighbor how the energy was just lost.

I feel the timeout benefits the trailing team. That's why coaches call timeouts to end runs. It breaks momentum. We had all the momentum at that point and the timeout broke that while also allowing Creighton to change defenses. Basically, we called a timeout for their benefit.
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tower912

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #53 on: February 14, 2016, 09:39:47 AM »
JJ has gotten more consistent in the offense, is doing a decent job on defense, but consistently loafs his way back on defense.   Creighton exploited it.   A fast break off of a made basket with the pass going right over his not-looking head.......   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2016, 10:08:42 AM »
It sounds like Wojo made some coaching mistakes last night. I'm sure he did. He's a young coach, they do that. But I can't imagine that some ill advised timeouts were the difference between MU losing and winning.

I've noticed our fan base tends to protect the players and torch the coaches when the team goes wrong. This isn't just with Wojo, it was when Buzz was here too. Wasn't on Scoop for the Crean era but I bet it was pretty similar. At first, I thought this came from a good place. Leave the kids alone and go after the adult. Pretty reasonable. But I'm not so sure anymore. I think it more comes from almost a state of denial. Similar to backup QB syndrome. If we focus on the coaching mistakes, we can tell ourselves that we can still be good this season. Players don't magically get better over night, but coaches can change their strategy or depth chart from one game to the next. Its easier for us to say the coach had a crappy game plan and screwed us over because that means we might win the next game. If we blamed the players instead, that would mean there was no hope. Because if we are bad, we are bad for the season. We know players don't improve that much during the year. That's a hard thing to admit.

The coaches have made their fair share of mistakes. And as the CEOs of the basketball team, the team's failing is their failing. But I really think most of our struggles this year come from a players not being good enough yet. They have the talent, but they don't have the experience or the polish to play to their talent consistently. We don't even have a full roster. We're minus two scholarships and that is solely on the coaching staff.

We're really young, 6th youngest in the country IIRC. Those who think that doesn't matter are kidding themselves. Those who think "we're 26 games in, we're not young anymore" are forgetting that all of our competition is also 26 games older. And those who think we haven't improved as the season has gone are lying to themselves. The team that lost to Belmont, got taken to OT by IUPUI, and roasted by Iowa would have its arse kicked by the team that is playing today. We have a strong foundation for the future. Despite having 10 times less experience than last season Wojo has led this team to a much better year. That should be exciting!
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79Warrior

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2016, 10:19:03 AM »
It sounds like Wojo made some coaching mistakes last night. I'm sure he did. He's a young coach, they do that. But I can't imagine that some ill advised timeouts were the difference between MU losing and winning.

I've noticed our fan base tends to protect the players and torch the coaches when the team goes wrong. This isn't just with Wojo, it was when Buzz was here too. Wasn't on Scoop for the Crean era but I bet it was pretty similar. At first, I thought this came from a good place. Leave the kids alone and go after the adult. Pretty reasonable. But I'm not so sure anymore. I think it more comes from almost a state of denial. Similar to backup QB syndrome. If we focus on the coaching mistakes, we can tell ourselves that we can still be good this season. Players don't magically get better over night, but coaches can change their strategy or depth chart from one game to the next. Its easier for us to say the coach had a crappy game plan and screwed us over because that means we might win the next game. If we blamed the players instead, that would mean there was no hope. Because if we are bad, we are bad for the season. We know players don't improve that much during the year. That's a hard thing to admit.

The coaches have made their fair share of mistakes. And as the CEOs of the basketball team, the team's failing is their failing. But I really think most of our struggles this year come from a players not being good enough yet. They have the talent, but they don't have the experience or the polish to play to their talent consistently. We don't even have a full roster. We're minus two scholarships and that is solely on the coaching staff.

We're really young, 6th youngest in the country IIRC. Those who think that doesn't matter are kidding themselves. Those who think "we're 26 games in, we're not young anymore" are forgetting that all of our competition is also 26 games older. And those who think we haven't improved as the season has gone are lying to themselves. The team that lost to Belmont, got taken to OT by IUPUI, and roasted by Iowa would have its arse kicked by the team that is playing today. We have a strong foundation for the future. Despite having 10 times less experience than last season Wojo has led this team to a much better year. That should be exciting!

Wojo did not turn the ball over 10 or 11 times in the first half. Wojo did not miss layups. Wojo did not fail to get back on defense. This game never should have gone down to the last play. Time to move on and fight for an NIT berth.

brewcity77

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2016, 10:43:55 AM »
Wojo did not turn the ball over 10 or 11 times in the first half. Wojo did not miss layups. Wojo did not fail to get back on defense. This game never should have gone down to the last play. Time to move on and fight for an NIT berth.

All true, but the players limited turnovers in the second. Last night was on both sides. Henry took too many threes and the last one was terrible. Duane's missed lay-unk (didn't know if he should lay it in or dunk). Defensive miscues.

But Wojo was not without blame. The last two minutes felt like Doug McDermott pretty much pantsed Wojo. Hopefully in a year or two, the combination of more experienced players and a more experienced coach will help that.
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mug644

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2016, 10:45:02 AM »
You don't foul down by 1 with a 9 second differential between game and shot clock.  No coach in America at the college or pro level not named Valvano would foul in that situation.

As for the fouling or not fouling situation, again, I didn't see the game, but I would much rather be down 1 with 9 seconds left than up 3 with 30 seconds.

Well I'd rather be up 3 with 30 than down 1 with 9  ;). But I'm assuming you meant down 3 with 30, so we agree.

Perhaps I'm about to reveal why I'm not a coach (at any level), but I'm not convinced that not fouling is the smarter play. If you foul, in all likelihood you have the ball down 1, 2 or 3 points with 30 seconds left, depending on the free throws. Still, you have plenty of time to do what you want. (Of course, it's possible that you give up an offensive rebound on a missed free throw.)

Or, you don't foul and need to rely on your defense to make a stop, or you are down 3 or maybe 4 points with 10+ seconds remaining, and the pressure is on.

At that moment last night, I didn't have confidence in the defense to make the stop (this team hasn't shown the ability to buckle down and make a necessary stop, except perhaps the final play of the first Providence game), and so I thought (and still think) it made sense to put pressure on free throw shooter and then have the ball. (Now that I think about it, I don't know if MU had fouls to give.)

Is there something basic I'm missing, or is it just a judgment call (that no coach not named Valvano would make)?

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2016, 11:00:23 AM »
Well I'd rather be up 3 with 30 than down 1 with 9  ;). But I'm assuming you meant down 3 with 30, so we agree.

Whoops, that's quite the brain fart.
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ChicosBailBonds

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2016, 11:04:11 AM »
This team has NCAA talent.  Its coaching has NIT talent.

Not the first time Wojo has blamed the players for complete lack of execution.  How about he takes at least some of the blame.

Wojo needs to get a more experienced coach on that sideline.  I have a bad feeling Wojo is more like Lavin.  A great recruiter who is not a very good in game coach.

He took plenty of blame.  Watch the press conference.   You've come to this conclusion in less than 2 seasons? 

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2016, 11:04:59 AM »

JJJ was fine.  I have no idea why he didn't play more unless he was missing defensive rotations.  I was flabbergasted when I saw Luke come out for the last play for instance.

I will say this, I thought Wojo was CLEARLY outcoached that game.  McDermott can coach.  The only question is whether or not he could recruit, and it looks like that's going well for him now too.

Wojo explained in the press conference why JJJ was out....it couldn't have been any more clear.

ChicosBailBonds

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2016, 11:06:11 AM »

I wouldn't have said that because there was no reason to call the timeout.

And fatigue?  They last played on Wednesday.  How could they be fatigued?

General fatigue.  With this young a team, they've never played this many games in a season in their lives, let along against this type of competition.  It happens to most teams that are this young. 

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #62 on: February 14, 2016, 11:07:18 AM »
Perhaps I'm about to reveal why I'm not a coach (at any level), but I'm not convinced that not fouling is the smarter play. If you foul, in all likelihood you have the ball down 1, 2 or 3 points with 30 seconds left, depending on the free throws. Still, you have plenty of time to do what you want. (Of course, it's possible that you give up an offensive rebound on a missed free throw.)

Or, you don't foul and need to rely on your defense to make a stop, or you are down 3 or maybe 4 points with 10+ seconds remaining, and the pressure is on.

At that moment last night, I didn't have confidence in the defense to make the stop (this team hasn't shown the ability to buckle down and make a necessary stop, except perhaps the final play of the first Providence game), and so I thought (and still think) it made sense to put pressure on free throw shooter and then have the ball. (Now that I think about it, I don't know if MU had fouls to give.)

Is there something basic I'm missing, or is it just a judgment call (that no coach not named Valvano would make)?

I think in general you avoid the free throw game until it becomes necessary. I don't have the exact stats but the average team shoots about 70% from the free throw line and only ~45% from the floor. And that ~45% doesn't include the possibility of the team turning it over. Down 1 with 9 seconds you can get fouled, hit a two, or hit a three pointer to win the game. Lots of ways to win. Up 3 with 30 seconds and you either need to score quickly and go back to fouling and praying for missed free throws, or you need to hit a three to tie. I think teams on average make 35% of their three point attempts. Plus the defense knows you have to go for a three at a certain point so it is easy to defend. If you get real close to time the defense can foul you on purpose and make you take two free throws, sealing  a loss.
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mug644

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #63 on: February 14, 2016, 11:29:54 AM »
I think in general you avoid the free throw game until it becomes necessary. I don't have the exact stats but the average team shoots about 70% from the free throw line and only ~45% from the floor. And that ~45% doesn't include the possibility of the team turning it over. Down 1 with 9 seconds you can get fouled, hit a two, or hit a three pointer to win the game. Lots of ways to win. Up 3 with 30 seconds and you either need to score quickly and go back to fouling and praying for missed free throws, or you need to hit a three to tie. I think teams on average make 35% of their three point attempts. Plus the defense knows you have to go for a three at a certain point so it is easy to defend. If you get real close to time the defense can foul you on purpose and make you take two free throws, sealing  a loss.

Fair enough. Thanks for explaining.

Isn't there something, though, about wanting to slow the game down, ensuring that you have the ball for more of the clock (even if it comes at a cost of putting them on the free throw line?? Then again, if MU fouls early and Creighton goes up by 3, then they can foul, sending us to the line, and not being able catch up.

I understand the dilemma, and can see both sides. And, I accept that people with a lot more coaching experience than I would do it differently than my gut said at the time.

Bottom line, Cheatham missing the two free throws totally changed the possibilities.

Mr. Nielsen

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #64 on: February 14, 2016, 12:16:41 PM »
If this is such a big deal it sure is lucky we won't be going to the tourney.  I guess we can forget a run in the BET - pre ordained excuse. Lame.
Providence was up by 26 and had to hold on.

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Mr. Nielsen

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Re: JJJ
« Reply #65 on: February 14, 2016, 12:21:08 PM »



And you think 10 extra minutes 72 hours earlier made them fatigued?  They didn't have to travel either.
Yes, without a doubt! It was an emotional game. I was fatigued as a fan in the Bradley Center.
If we are all thinking alike, we're not thinking at all. It's OK to disagree. Just don't be disagreeable.
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