Look Good Play Good Duane

[We R Final Four]

My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.

[GGGG]

My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.

Yes.  Running around like chickens with their heads cut off on defense.  Duane's miss didn't cause that.

[wadesworld]

Well if you make the assumption that the game plays itself out the EXACT SAME WAY after any missed shot, Duane's missed layup is no more important than Henry and Luke going a combined 1-6 at the line, Haanif's two charges, etc. 

That is pretty much my point.  You are placing too much emphasis on one play especially considering that Marquette scored on its next three offensive possessions afterward.  (Which nixes the "momentum" argument.)

Time and situation.

[GGGG]

Time and situation.

Right.  Which supports my point.  Marquette scored on multiple possessions and extended its lead after that miss. 

It didn't affect momentum.  It had no more an impact than any other empty possession throughout the game.

It was a "high profile miss."  Which means people are placing more emphasis on it than they should.

[bilsu]

Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?

[ChicosBailBonds]

Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?

This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching?  Or was that the players?

[muhoops1]

When you're up 1 with 4:30 to play you lay the ball into the hoop on a breakaway when you're a below the rim player. Kid continues to cost us games and it's purely mental errors.

Exactly, yet he portends that he's the leader of this team.  Not a fan.  Probably a good kid but peace bro...

[muhoops1]

Play didn't really matter.  Creighton missed on the offensive end and Marquette scored the next time down.

Play absolutely mattered...up 5 vs 3.  Sick of you stay nerds pretending possessions don't matter.

[romey]

My bigger concern was leaving Milliken unguarded at the top of the key to drain a 3.

Agreed.  What was so frustrating for me was if you were to watch that entire possession, I believe it was Milliken who received a pass just to the left of where he took the made three, and no one was on him - wide open - and he didn't shoot.  I thought why the hell was he left so open, we were lucky he didn't take that because he was wide open.  Then he gave up the ball, moved to the top of the key, got it back and was wide open AGAIN.  this time he took it and drained it.

[connie]

To me that is this team in one play--so much potential, so many good things, and so many crazy stupid plays that you just shake your head in wonder.

[bilsu]

This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching?  Or was that the players?

MU definately tried to give away the Providence game. Providence just could not take it.

[ChicosBailBonds]

MU definately tried to give away the Providence game. Providence just could not take it.

Yup, but they won and played a good game throughout to get into that position.  Against Wisconsin?  Butler?  Providence again?  Etc.  Is it coaching that loses and players only win?

[#UnleashSean]

Play absolutely mattered...up 5 vs 3.  Sick of you stay nerds pretending possessions don't matter.

But if Wilson didn't miss the dunk/layup/whateverthehelllthatwas Carter wouldn't have gotten the steal. Who's to say what would have happened on creightons possession.

[#UnleashSean]

is it coaching that loses and players only win?

Both. But when blatant issues continue to come up in every close game, it becomes a coaching problem.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Both. But when blatant issues continue to come up in every close game, it becomes a coaching problem.

Can you outline what those blatant issues are that come up in close games

[wadesworld]

But if Wilson didn't miss the dunk/layup/whateverthehelllthatwas Carter wouldn't have gotten the steal. Who's to say what would have happened on creightons possession.

Why would Carter have not gotten the steal?  This is what I don't get about yours and Sultan's theory.  The next possession does not change 1 bit if Duane simply lays the ball in.  Our defense is set.  We have 4 guys back on defense with the miss, and we would've with a make.  It doesn't make sense.  It's not like Creighton got the rebound and we had 4 guys crashing the glass so they got some run out but a defender made a great play on their break.  It was literally going to be the exact same situation had Wilson made the layup.  If Duane makes it, Creighton is bringing the ball up at the same pace and running their half court offense, just like they did with Duane somehow messing up a breakaway all by himself.  There was 4:30 left so they didn't suddenly go from needing a 2 to requiring a 3.  Absolutely nothing would have changed about that possession, or Marquette's next possession, if Wilson makes a simple, wide open, uncontested layup.  It's really not hard to see that.  Go back and watch the play.  Make or miss, Marquette is set up and Creighton needs to run a half court set.

Where it DOES change the game is, instead of up 2 late in the game and not getting a bucket, we'd be up 4 and Creighton most likely needs to send us to the line.

For the next 2 minutes the only way the game changed was Marquette had 2 points less on the scoreboard.  That let Creighton play straight up and take a lead because they got a stop and then a 3.  1 possession game vs. 2 possession game is an absolutely critical difference down the stretch.  Time and situation.

[21rooster]

Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game.  Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger.  There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

You cant say with certainty that the possession would have gone the exact same way. If Duane had scored they would have taken it out of bounds. Watson could have come up a different side of the floor, he could have ran a different play, hell he could have dribbled it off his foot bringing it up. To say the rest of the possession would play out the same way makes no sense.

That being said, Duanes miss was huge. Shouldn't have happened. No one mistake ever causes a loss. It's a culmination of mistakes. I don't think Duanes biff was even the biggest factor. But it was the most unacceptable mistake and the easiest one to correct.

[GGGG]

Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game.  Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger.  There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.

LOL.  It was such a momentum changer that Marquette scored on its next three possessions and extended its lead after the miss.   

That being said, Duanes miss was huge. Shouldn't have happened. No one mistake ever causes a loss. It's a culmination of mistakes. I don't think Duanes biff was even the biggest factor. But it was the most unacceptable mistake and the easiest one to correct.

I can go with this.  I personally think the defensive breakdowns toward the end of the game were the biggest factor, along with the stupid timeout that Wojo took.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Missing the layup hurt, but the game was lost on coaching. 3 1/2 to go Creighton calls time out. A play is set up that gives Hegner a wide open three from the corner. Great design by one coach and poor defense out of a time out be the other team. A theme I have seen repeatedly in recent games. About 30 seconds to go Wojo calls time out and according to his post game show designs a play for Fischer. The whole game Fischer has been well defended. He had 12 points. Two baskets on offensive rebounds and two baskets on broken plays. Basically he scored on two plays the whole game and Wojo thinks it is a good idea to design a play to get the ball inside to him. Creighton had it well defended and Ellenson ends up having to throw up a three at the end of the shot clock. The whole season MU has rarely been successful when Wojo calls time out to set up a play. During the post game show he said the players did not listen to what he wanted them to do. Is that a player IQ problem or a coaching problem?

Yes, drawing up a play for our most efficient scorer was a bad coaching decision. Sound analysis.

I also still don't buy your theory that every time an opponent scores on an inbound play it means you were outcoached. If it were true, a lot of great coaches are getting outcoached all the time!

[willie warrior]

Say what you want, Duane's missed layup was an infuriating play in an 8th grade game.  Yes, it was a huge momentum swinger.  There were many gamechangers, but this ranks #1.

Agreed. There is no way you blow a bunny like that. In addition, he had a wide open three that he had enough time to read the Bible before launching it and it clanked. I like Duane a lot, but believe that the way Wojo has used him this year has hurt his confidence--not developing well.

[wadesworld]

Was at the game so didn't see the play a 2nd time. Just researched it. The Creighton PG literally is falling out of bounds on the rebound and needs to pass it to the big who was trailing even more to save himself from falling out of bounds. They were literally taking it from the end line and their guard walked the ball up the middle of the court just like he would've had Duane not missed an uncontested breakaway. The following possession would have been identical.

[WarriorPride68]

In addition, he had a wide open three that he had enough time to read the Bible before launching it and it clanked

That made me chuckle. Well put

[bilsu]

This is more of a curiosity question for me....those games recently that we won...was that also because of coaching?  Or was that the players?

There are two parts to coaching. Game prep, which I think Wojo is pretty good at. In game adjustments, which I think Wojo stinks at.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Was at the game so didn't see the play a 2nd time. Just researched it. The Creighton PG literally is falling out of bounds on the rebound and needs to pass it to the big who was trailing even more to save himself from falling out of bounds. They were literally taking it from the end line and their guard walked the ball up the middle of the court just like he would've had Duane not missed an uncontested breakaway. The following possession would have been identical.

So had Duane scored Creighton would have had their PG inbound it to their big man while off balance? Because that right there could change the possession. Watson could have taken it up the right side. Or the left. Maybe he would take more or less time bringing it up. Maybe because Duane scored, the situation would be different and he would call a different play. Maybe because Duane scored he would have felt the need to answer right away and taken a three from the top of the key. Maybe he would have been so flustered by Duane scoring that he dribbled it off his foot. Maybe McDermott would have been afraid of momentum swinging and called a time out. Maybe because we scored, Traci wouldn't have felt the need to be aggressive and go for the steal. Maybe Duane would have gotten caught up celebrating and let his man get behind him for an easy score.

Who knows? There is literally no way to know what would have happened the next possession. To try and claim otherwise is silly.

Don't get me wrong, there is no situation where Duane missing the layup is a good thing. No matter what, that is an awful mistake.