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Author Topic: What is the ceiling for Traci?  (Read 5443 times)

tower912

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2016, 11:18:25 AM »
MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

The last top tier PG was Dominic.    We were spoiled for years at the point.   Miller, Hutch, Henry, Diener, James.     After DJ, it was Acker, Cadougan, Wilson.   IMO, Carter's ceiling is better than Acker, Cadougan, Wilson, but not as good as the other 5.   OK, maybe Henry.   But all predictions go out the window if Wojo lands Howard.   
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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Lennys Tap

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2016, 11:20:47 AM »
MU 82

Everyone has different standards and expectations from players. I still laugh at the John Dawson being the PG  of the future posts from a couple of years ago. I am afraid everyone out here either has amnesia and forgot what a top tier PG looks like or are too young and have only seen subpar PG performance in their life.

I'm with you Goose. The good thing about speculating about a player's "ceiling" is that when (almost inevitably) they fall short the folks with unrealistic hopes can still claim to be right. "He had a high ceiling, could have been our best (fill in the blank) since (fill in the blank). If only (fill in the blank)" LOL.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2016, 11:58:00 AM by Lennys Tap »

MU82

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2016, 11:29:59 AM »
The last top tier PG was Dominic.    We were spoiled for years at the point.   Miller, Hutch, Henry, Diener, James.     After DJ, it was Acker, Cadougan, Wilson.   IMO, Carter's ceiling is better than Acker, Cadougan, Wilson, but not as good as the other 5.   OK, maybe Henry.   But all predictions go out the window if Wojo lands Howard.

I agree with all of this.

And I stand by what my eyes told me for two painful, painful years: Derrick was the worst of this bunch you listed by miles and miles and miles.

When you start with .429-.175-.456 shooting percentages and go from there, it's really not even open for debate. That two different coaches couldn't find anybody better for two years, a truly horrible mini-era for Marquette. I'm SOOOOO glad it's over.

Comparatively speaking, I am happily accepting the growing pains from Haanif and Traci. At least I feel they have ceilings above where they are now.

And yes, I do hope Wojo lands Howard and he is as great as he is being billed. There is ALWAYS room for an outstanding PG prospect.
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brandx

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2016, 12:05:07 PM »
I'm with you Goose. The good thing about speculating about a player's "ceiling" is that when (almost inevitably) they fall short the folks with unrealistic hopes can still claim to be right. "He had a high ceiling, could have been our best (fill in the blank) since (fill in the blank). If only (fill in the blank)" LOL.

Two things.

1. French Pastry, baby. (I Know the young guys here will have no clue about this.)

2. People need to quit comparing Haanif to Hall of Famers. He is a good freshman ball player. Pippen, Manu, Westbrook... these are guys that are or will be in the HoF - although style-wise, Manu is a decent comp if you don't include court awareness, which is something HC should develop as he grows.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2016, 12:30:06 PM »
Goose, you have been down on Traci since the beginning. Can you explain what you see? I get really excited by his potential. I think his handle and vision are that of a high major pg  which are the two hardest things to teach a young pg imho. His defense is well above average for a freshman. His shot and turnovers need work but we have seen improvements over the season. I'm honestly curious since you abd I usually see eye to eye
TAMU

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Goose

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2016, 12:44:53 PM »
TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

Silkk the Shaka

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2016, 01:11:02 PM »
TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=50038.msg791389#msg791389

Look for aggression out of freshmen/rookie pg's. Sign of good things to come. Carter has it.

The Lens

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #32 on: February 12, 2016, 01:17:05 PM »
I am on record as saying Traci will be Wojo's most important recruit.  He's KO's T-Mill.
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GGGG

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2016, 01:20:54 PM »
TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.


I think he's going to be better than Junior Cadougan, and Junior was a PG on a BE conference championship / Elite 8 team.

BM1090

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2016, 01:22:53 PM »
I am on record as saying Traci will be Wojo's most important recruit.  He's KO's T-Mill.

Yeah, I don't really get the complaints about his play. He's a freshman PG who was thrown into the fire when he wasn't ready. He has a very low shooting percentage, but has really turned it around the past 5-6 games. Looks like a different player. Is capable of knocking down 3 pointers. Has a 2:1 A:TO ratio.

Most of all, he's confident. He doesn't really look tentative out there. He made arguably the two biggest shots for us on Wednesday. The layup to tie it, the and 1 to tie it in OT, and he got fouled on a game winning drive to the hoop as well.

Derrick took care of the ball but never asserted himself. I think Carter is going to be a real good player here.

amen426

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2016, 02:17:59 PM »
Traci reminds me a bit of Mateen Cleaves, when I watch him. Maybe it’s the way he looks. Maybe it’s his confidence/attitude on the court – but there is something there that reminds me of him.

Cleaves played 26 MPG as a frosh – shot 23% from 3; and averaged 5 Assists / 4 Turnovers, 0.6 steals per game. Traci has played fewer minutes, but still has 4.5 Ast / 2.3 T/O’s / 1.5 Steals, and is shooting 34% from 3. Cleaves had 10 PPG compared to only 5 for Traci, but he also doubled Traci's shot attempts. Traci is the 5th scoring option on this team, right now.

And for the record… Mateen Cleaves was a freshman during Tom Izzo’s 2nd year at Michigan State (first recruiting class). Tom Izzo missed the tournament that season, as well as his 1st season at the helm the year prior. Just like Wojo. Michigan State has not missed the tournament since that year.
   
Cleaves helped put Michigan State & Tom Izzo on the map. Hopefully Carter can help do the same, as Wojo’s first PG.

I get that Traci's not going to be a 3-time All American. But you don't think he can average 11.7 Pts, 7.2 Ast, 3.7 T/O’s, 1.6 Reb, 1.8 Stl and 29% 3PT over 31 MPG, as a JUNIOR, while being the vocal leader of that team? Definitely think he can match that role in two years.   

MU82

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2016, 02:34:20 PM »

I think he's going to be better than Junior Cadougan, and Junior was a PG on a BE conference championship / Elite 8 team.

This is my feeling as well. I would have liked to have had a better PG than Junior; if we did, we could have gone even farther. But he certainly didn't stink, and if that's what Traci becomes, we could do a LOT worse -- and we did the last two seasons.

With all this talk of "ceilings" I still maintain that Junior should be the "floor" for acceptable PGs for Marquette. In other words, we are a quality enough program to never have a PG who isn't at least as capable as Junior. It was hard watching the PG position -- and therefore the entire team -- in 2013-14 and 2014-15.

I hope Traci becomes better than Junior as early as next season. And regardless, I hope Wojo recruits somebody better than Traci AND Junior because I want to win big -- and a stud PG can go a long way to getting there.

I had no problem with any of Goose's statements about Carter until he compared him unfavorably to Wilson. It surprised me, because I also consider Goose to be knowledgeable.

As for those who say we shouldn't use NBA names when talking about our players ... I can't speak for my fellow Scoopers, but when I make comparisons (or agree to others' comparisons), I am talking about a certain playing style and/or body type.

So I can see a little Manu in Haanif without saying I think Haanif is going to be as good as Manu, a future Hall of Famer. I can't see Westbrook because Cheatham's body and style are significantly different. All IMHO, of course.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2016, 04:15:26 PM »
TAMU

Truthfully, I am not "down" on Carter. Would say it is more that I do not see the upside others out here seem to have. I think it probably a decent limited role player on very good team. Again, all my observations are based off what I believe or want our program to be. Yes, he can be a starter on certain programs, but none of those are programs are what I want MU to be. PG is the most important position in college ball IMO and you better have a stud.

As noted on another post, there are times he dribbles into a black hole and times he picks up the dribble way too quickly. Those are two options that are a kiss of death for PG. Gladly will say I am wrong if he becomes what many on here believe.

Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.
TAMU

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BM1090

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2016, 04:52:42 PM »
Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.

Junior and Vander are probably the two best cases of development. Jimmy too, but he was obviously JUCO

MU82

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2016, 05:04:49 PM »
Comparing a pg to Derrick Wilson is the epitomy of being down on a guy.I say that as a derrick slurper.

I think we as a fanbase have stopped believing in player development. Buzz had so many high school busts and transfers that we never got to see it. Most of buzzs players   who panned out were contributors from day one because they were jucos, transfers, or 25 years old (mayo). That's not a very realistic expectation to set. I think junior is the only player who developed from a benchwarmer into a starter...and that's only because he was injured. Most programs rely on developing reserves into starters and starters into studs.

In conclusion, just because a guy isn't a stud his freshmen year doesn't mean he won't be one by his senior year. Haanie and Traci both have the look if future studs. Heldt and Sacar might be too, but can't be sure yet. I feel better about Heldt than Sacar.

Outstanding post, TAMU.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2016, 05:17:38 PM »
Junior and Vander are probably the two best cases of development. Jimmy too, but he was obviously JUCO

Agreed but even Vander was a starter from day 1 iirc. Jimmy was a solid rotation player hits first season. My main point was that we had so many Erik Williams, jamail Jones, and yous mbao type players that we refuse to believe that a Matt Heldt or Sacar Anim could ever become a contributor.
TAMU

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rocket surgeon

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2016, 06:40:11 PM »
 
    tracy has a lot of potential-the ball is in his court.  he needs to build upon this year.  as they say-the only good

 thing about freshman is that they become sophomores.  it drives me crazy when anyone: 1)picks up the dribble in

no mans land, 2) picks up the dribble in a coffin corner.  stop it!  if he makes the most efficient use of the tools he

has available to him and stays out of trouble-good things can happen
don't...don't don't don't don't

MU82

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2016, 07:26:25 PM »
Agreed but even Vander was a starter from day 1 iirc. Jimmy was a solid rotation player hits first season. My main point was that we had so many Erik Williams, jamail Jones, and yous mbao type players that we refuse to believe that a Matt Heldt or Sacar Anim could ever become a contributor.

Indeed, it's fair to speculate that Frank Kaminsky never would have become Frank The Tank under Buzz.

I appreciate all he did for MU, but you're right that developing prepsters into outstanding college players wasn't one of Buzz's strengths.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Herman Cain

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2016, 11:34:33 PM »
I think Traci could eventually be in the upper half of Big East point guards. I would like to see him look to pass a little more, if he would do that it would open things up for him on the dribble drive. I like to see the point guards look to distribute the ball first and then look for their own shot second.
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ChitownSpaceForRent

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2016, 01:20:26 AM »
I think Traci could eventually be in the upper half of Big East point guards. I would like to see him look to pass a little more, if he would do that it would open things up for him on the dribble drive. I like to see the point guards look to distribute the ball first and then look for their own shot second.

Funny cause Wojo said the exact opposite after the Butler game. He thought Traci was passing too much and wasn't taking his own chances.

Goose

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Re: What is the ceiling for Traci?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2016, 10:54:00 AM »
TAMU

You can call my comments as being down on Carter and that is fine. I simply do not believe he is the long term answer at PG if the program is going to achieve goals I hope they have. Have watched a lot of ball in my day I simply do not see the upside as many others on here. Again, hope I am wrong. Everyone on here wants MU to be a great program and everyone has an opinion on how that happens. IMO it starts with having an A+ PG and not a serviceable one.

 

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