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Poll

Is Steven Avery and Brendan dassey innocent in your opinion?

Yes
47 (44.8%)
No
58 (55.2%)

Total Members Voted: 104

Author Topic: Making a murder  (Read 121715 times)

wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #500 on: August 18, 2016, 10:02:00 AM »
Chances are, he probably is.  Which makes the D.A.'s and the County's behavior all the more disgusting... it's because of the Mad Kratzer's, Tweedle-Colborn's, and Tweedle-Wiegert's extreme incompetence / arrogance that the people of Manitowoc County are now faced with the extreme likelihood that not just one, but potentially two murders are going to be set free.... consider the following:

Let's assume for a moment that Dassey and Avery did do it.  Moreover, let's say that everything happened exactly the way the prosecution presented it.  If the State doesn't retry Dassey, one murderer walks.  If the State does retry Dassey - and let's face facts, here... there's no way that even if an impartial jury can be found anywhere in Wisconsin is going to convict Dassey without the confession - Dassey is most likely going to be acquitted.  And then, thanks to the Fifth Amendment, Dassey could come clean without fear of further prosecution and even testify that he acted alone (which is actually a popular theory in circulation), which means Stevie eventually walks, too. 

As a result, it won't be long before two murderers go free.

So it bears repeating: two murderers may go free because of the extreme incompetence / arrogance of three men:

1. Ken Kratz
2. Andrew Colborn
3. Mark Wiegert

The anger, frustration, fear, sadness, and every other emotion that the Halbach family and residents of Manitowoc County will now have to relive rests not with Avery, Dassey, the producers or social media... it rests with these three men.


And inevitably, Dassey and Avery will write a book... which will be eventually be published c. 2032 after going through a dozen different proofreaders who died of exhaustion and/or multiple simultaneous aneurysms.

That's not how it would work. A confession from someone else would help but it wouldn't guarantee anything. And Dassey wouldn't be able to confess for years and years and even after everything was done with his case it'd be a bad decision for him to admit anything.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:04:01 AM by wadesworld »
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Spotcheck Billy

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #501 on: August 18, 2016, 10:26:43 AM »
That's not how it would work. A confession from someone else would help but it wouldn't guarantee anything. And Dassey wouldn't be able to confess for years and years and even after everything was done with his case it'd be a bad decision for him to admit anything.

Why would it be "years and years"?

wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #502 on: August 18, 2016, 10:30:33 AM »
Why would it be "years and years"?

Because in order for him to be entirely free of any chance of being thrown in jail for the Halbach murder the case would need to be retried and he'd need to be acquitted.  And if the state felt there was something there to the point of retrying him and he was acquitted then there would be appeals for a long time.  And if Dassey decided to confess to murdering Halbach while appeals are still ongoing or possible...oops?

It's August of 2016 and we're still having appeals from the original case, which was in 2007.  If Dassey was retried and acquitted the state would be going through appeals for years.  These things move slowly.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:32:12 AM by wadesworld »
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GGGG

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #503 on: August 18, 2016, 10:34:09 AM »
A confession would be "new evidence."  Therefore Dassey could be tried again without violating the double jeopardy clause of the Fifth Amendment. 

wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #504 on: August 18, 2016, 10:35:44 AM »
A confession would be "new evidence."  Therefore Dassey could be tried again without violating the double jeopardy clause of the Fifth Amendment.

That too.

Plus, even if somehow it wasn't new evidence and Dassey was clear of all criminal charges, he'd get murdered in civil court if he came out with a confession.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 10:38:34 AM by wadesworld »
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Benny B

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #505 on: August 18, 2016, 10:54:42 AM »
A confession would be "new evidence."  Therefore Dassey could be tried again without violating the double jeopardy clause of the Fifth Amendment.

This is absolutely not true.  If the "new evidence" can be charged as a new crime, that's a different matter.  But if Dassey confesses (again) after a re-trial, he can't be retried again.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

GGGG

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #506 on: August 18, 2016, 10:57:50 AM »
This is absolutely not true.  If the "new evidence" can be charged as a new crime, that's a different matter.  But if Dassey confesses (again) after a re-trial, he can't be retried again.

Yes you are correct.  My error.

wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #507 on: August 18, 2016, 11:16:56 AM »
This is absolutely not true.  If the "new evidence" can be charged as a new crime, that's a different matter.  But if Dassey confesses (again) after a re-trial, he can't be retried again.

You are right.  It theoretically could go down that way.  But the only way it could get to that point is with an acquittal of Dassey in a retrial, not just with being released from jail due to a mistrial as it is now.  With the state knowing Dassey is being released on mistrial, they would also conclude that Dassey's original confession would be thrown out from any courtroom in a retrial and they would have nothing against him.  They wouldn't retry him.  And without retrying him there is no double jeopardy, so a confession from Dassey puts him right back in jail.

Even if it was possible (it isn't) that the state retries him and all the appeals occur, etc. etc. etc. in the next year and Dassey walks free (again, this process would take many years, but pretending it wouldn't...) and then admits to murdering Halbach himself, it would not lead to an acquittal for Steven Avery.
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mu03eng

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #508 on: August 18, 2016, 11:17:57 AM »
At this point, the Dassey stuff is not about guilt or innocence, it is about the justice system being broken. Charging authorities are incentivized to make convictions, not seek justice. The sooner we move past whether Avery and/or Dassey are guilty and actually look at how we arrived at the conclusion the faster we could actually fix something.
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wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #509 on: August 18, 2016, 11:30:00 AM »
At this point, the Dassey stuff is not about guilt or innocence, it is about the justice system being broken. Charging authorities are incentivized to make convictions, not seek justice. The sooner we move past whether Avery and/or Dassey are guilty and actually look at how we arrived at the conclusion the faster we could actually fix something.

Agreed on Dassey.  His case was mishandled by someone who was supposed to be working for and helping him.  I'm not at all sure that's the case with Avery.  If a person who was last seen at my house went missing and their charred bone fragments and personal belongings were found in my fire pit with a bullet hole in their head and the matching gun in my bedroom, their car found on my property with my DNA on it, etc., that's a pretty easy guilty conviction and life in prison for me.  If it's proven that the evidence was planted then I have an argument.  But that hasn't been proven.  Apparently this new (well, no longer new anymore) lawyer has proof of this, or so we've been publicly told for a long time now.  When we'll be shown said evidence?  Anybody's guess.  My guess?  She has none.
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mu03eng

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #510 on: August 18, 2016, 11:45:53 AM »
Agreed on Dassey.  His case was mishandled by someone who was supposed to be working for and helping him.  I'm not at all sure that's the case with Avery.  If a person who was last seen at my house went missing and their charred bone fragments and personal belongings were found in my fire pit with a bullet hole in their head and the matching gun in my bedroom, their car found on my property with my DNA on it, etc., that's a pretty easy guilty conviction and life in prison for me.  If it's proven that the evidence was planted then I have an argument.  But that hasn't been proven.  Apparently this new (well, no longer new anymore) lawyer has proof of this, or so we've been publicly told for a long time now.  When we'll be shown said evidence?  Anybody's guess.  My guess?  She has none.

There was misconduct in both Dassey and Avery investigations/prosecutions. The degree of the misconduct varied but they were A) interrelated B) completely unnecessary if either party is guilty. We should have a zero tolerance policy for abuse of power independent of the guilt or innocence of the individual involved.
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Jay Bee

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #511 on: August 18, 2016, 12:05:38 PM »
Attorneys behave badly quite often.

So does Avery
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mu03eng

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #512 on: August 18, 2016, 12:09:35 PM »
Attorneys behave badly quite often.

So does Avery

And neither should excuse the other. The individual should always have the benefit over the state....we've flipped that script in the last 40 years.
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jsglow

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #513 on: August 18, 2016, 12:53:56 PM »
There was misconduct in both Dassey and Avery investigations/prosecutions. The degree of the misconduct varied but they were A) interrelated B) completely unnecessary if either party is guilty. We should have a zero tolerance policy for abuse of power independent of the guilt or innocence of the individual involved.

I think this degree question is relevant.  And I want to be careful about the use of the word 'misconduct'.  No investigation is every 100% perfect; mistakes happen.  Certainly from my perspective the lengthy interrogation of a 'slow' youth without an attorney present would seem to be a miscarriage of justice.  Note that I'm not speaking about its technical legality or changes that may have occurred in the law.  I'm simply saying that doesn't pass the smell test.

But at the complete other end of the spectrum would be routine departures from formal written procedure that happen every day at every crime scene.  I'll use Dennis Fung at the OJ trial.  The defense made a huge deal about the handling of evidence 'outside' proper procedures.  Yeah, okay.  It wasn't perfect but I can see through that straw man argument and exercise reasonable judgment to know OJ did it.  And I'm justified in doing that.

Now I can't remember all the supposed Avery framing that took place but the fact that a detective might have failed to sign the log doesn't mean he planted evidence.  Doesn't mean he didn't but the totality needs to be weighed.  I think I recall one theory that the cops actually killed Halbach just so they could frame Avery.  Really?  Better have some very strong evidence of that.   
« Last Edit: August 18, 2016, 12:55:41 PM by jsglow »

mu03eng

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #514 on: August 18, 2016, 01:46:37 PM »
I think this degree question is relevant.  And I want to be careful about the use of the word 'misconduct'.  No investigation is every 100% perfect; mistakes happen.  Certainly from my perspective the lengthy interrogation of a 'slow' youth without an attorney present would seem to be a miscarriage of justice.  Note that I'm not speaking about its technical legality or changes that may have occurred in the law.  I'm simply saying that doesn't pass the smell test.

But at the complete other end of the spectrum would be routine departures from formal written procedure that happen every day at every crime scene.  I'll use Dennis Fung at the OJ trial.  The defense made a huge deal about the handling of evidence 'outside' proper procedures.  Yeah, okay.  It wasn't perfect but I can see through that straw man argument and exercise reasonable judgment to know OJ did it.  And I'm justified in doing that.

Now I can't remember all the supposed Avery framing that took place but the fact that a detective might have failed to sign the log doesn't mean he planted evidence.  Doesn't mean he didn't but the totality needs to be weighed.  I think I recall one theory that the cops actually killed Halbach just so they could frame Avery.  Really?  Better have some very strong evidence of that.

I don't disagree with you, the conspiracy stuff clouds the actual issues around investigatorial and prosecutorial conduct. There are mountains and there are mole hills and its a classic defense tactic to turn mole hills into mountains. My contention is that there were significant mountains in the Dassey case and there were at least hills in the Avery case. To me there is clear evidence that authorities, especially the sheriff's department wanted it to be Avery, irrespective of his actual guilt or innocence. I get that routine procedural issues occur, but there were some pretty blatant ones including,  but not limited to,  an officer being on-site and finding multiple pieces of key evidence despite his not supposed to be there at all. Additionally, it's some times what you don't do not just what you do. There was a lack of follow up on a number of pieces of evidence/testimony that may or may not have led to different theories of the crime.

It's fair to highlight the use of misconduct, what the various organizations did may not have been criminal in nature or rise to the absolute definition of misconduct but it certainly indicates to me a breaking of faith with the intent and spirit of the justice system.
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Benny B

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #515 on: August 18, 2016, 02:11:35 PM »
At this point, the Dassey stuff is not about guilt or innocence, it is about the justice system being broken. Charging authorities are incentivized to make convictions, not seek justice. The sooner we move past whether Avery and/or Dassey are guilty and actually look at how we arrived at the conclusion the faster we could actually fix something.

Exactly.  Unfortunately, it's going to take the release of a high-profile murderer* or two for people to wake up to this.  Even more unfortunate, this may not be the case for that.

* O.J. doesn't count.  That was merely a demonstration of a stellar defense team.  I'm talking about a clear case where the prosecution and law enforcement crossed the line on multiple occasions leading to the acquittal of an actual murderer.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

MU82

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #516 on: August 18, 2016, 02:40:15 PM »
Attorneys behave badly quite often.

So does Avery

Yes, but Avery isn't an "officer of the court" or a "protector of the public."

The good guys aren't supposed to be the bad guys.
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Benny B

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #517 on: August 26, 2016, 10:31:33 PM »
http://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/steven-avery/2016/08/26/avery-seeks-new-testing-evidence/89262098/

A boatload of money is about to be spent on a boatload of DNA testing.

If there's any truth to Zellner's speculation and more than one person was involved in framing Avery, there are at least a couple of cats in Manitowoc County who are going to be praying to Allah the next few weeks that the other guy(s) don't crack.
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HouWarrior

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #518 on: August 27, 2016, 05:56:27 PM »
Thanks for this thread. Sorry I am very late to the game, but I am binge watching this over the weekend....superlative documentary!!!

I love that there is no narration...what a great production job to tell the entire story through interviews. Incredible drama

I will watch it all and then catch up/vote/weigh in

Again thanks for alerting me to this series...compelling TV
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Vander Blue Man Group

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #519 on: August 27, 2016, 11:12:24 PM »
Thanks for this thread. Sorry I am very late to the game, but I am binge watching this over the weekend....superlative documentary!!!

I love that there is no narration...what a great production job to tell the entire story through interviews. Incredible drama

I will watch it all and then catch up/vote/weigh in

Again thanks for alerting me to this series...compelling TV

Make sure to ask Jay Bee what he thinks when you're done.

Jay Bee

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #520 on: August 28, 2016, 11:13:04 AM »
Yes, but Avery isn't an "officer of the court" or a "protector of the public."

The good guys aren't supposed to be the bad guys.

"Protector of the public" lol

Humans aren't supposed to murder innocents
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MU82

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #521 on: August 28, 2016, 03:36:14 PM »
"Protector of the public" lol

Humans aren't supposed to murder innocents

Of course.

I guess it's OK if you don't hold police officers to higher standards than the general population. I do. And I think most cops would say they do. But it's OK if you don't.
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Benny B

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #522 on: August 28, 2016, 07:13:30 PM »
"Protector of the public" lol

Humans aren't supposed to murder innocents

Meat is murder.  Tasty, tasty murder.

Oh wait... Is this the smoker thread?
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Benny B

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #523 on: September 06, 2016, 09:23:58 AM »
Twitta Twacka
------
Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw  Sep 3
Crucial witnesses coming forward now-as they always do when new scientific testing sought. Science not spin will rule.
#MakingAMurderer
------

More often than not, these tweets are not so much reporting as they are predicting... at the very least Zellner is using the same tactic as law enforcement, i.e. "you might as well confess because the other guy told us everything" to motivate someone to come forward who's kept in the shadows or kept his/her story in the shadows until now.

This could be nothing more than a fishing expedition, but as I said from the very beginning, Zellner doesn't take high profile cases unless she's damn sure she can win.  Obviously, Zellner seems to be buying large on the theory that there was some sort of collusion involved, whether Avery was framed or not.

Frankly, I still don't care if Avery is guilty or not, as soon as Zellner's appeal is granted, Netflix stock is almost assured a 15% jump on the demand prospects of Season 2 alone.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

wadesworld

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Re: Making a murder
« Reply #524 on: September 06, 2016, 09:41:35 AM »
Twitta Twacka
------
Kathleen Zellner ‏@ZellnerLaw  Sep 3
Crucial witnesses coming forward now-as they always do when new scientific testing sought. Science not spin will rule.
#MakingAMurderer
------

More often than not, these tweets are not so much reporting as they are predicting... at the very least Zellner is using the same tactic as law enforcement, i.e. "you might as well confess because the other guy told us everything" to motivate someone to come forward who's kept in the shadows or kept his/her story in the shadows until now.

This could be nothing more than a fishing expedition, but as I said from the very beginning, Zellner doesn't take high profile cases unless she's damn sure she can win.  Obviously, Zellner seems to be buying large on the theory that there was some sort of collusion involved, whether Avery was framed or not.

Frankly, I still don't care if Avery is guilty or not, as soon as Zellner's appeal is granted, Netflix stock is almost assured a 15% jump on the demand prospects of Season 2 alone.

Yeah, a lawyer who is as successful as she is isn't going to be sitting there Tweeting inside information on the case.  Which is why she's Tweeting absolute nothings about this.  She wouldn't be where she was making it public when new evidence was found.  She's been doing this since the day she took the case, and yet we still haven't heard any actual evidence that will exonerate Avery, we haven't heard about an actual appeal, nothing.  She's trying to keep this hype train rolling.

I still stand by my thought that her taking this case means absolutely nothing about whether she thinks she can get Avery out of jail.  Just by taking his case she already won.  There couldn't have possibly been more publicity for this story, and now everyone in America knows who Kathleen Zellner is.  She already won, even if/when Avery remains locked up behind bars for the rest of his life.

Since the second she took this case all you see if you go to her Law Offices home page is "Now Representing STEVEN AVERY."  It remains that way 8 months later or whatever it's been.  She already got everything she needed out of this case.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2016, 09:47:12 AM by wadesworld »
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