Making a murder

[brandx]

Thought this was gonna be 'bout Vince Foster, hey?

Wow, um.... really clever 

[rocket surgeon]

just watched parts 1 and 2.  i know it's early in the game here, but i'm getting a tummy ache. 

they set this documentary up really well.  one of big things that bothers me so far is that they had free roam of avery's property for 8 + days...hmmmmmmm

the timeline of all this, the chit hitting the fan with manitowoc county and teresa's disappearance is interesting

i may have to change my vote from guilty to "present" heyna get my drift?

[brewcity77]

I'm almost done and thus far, there's definitely stuff the documentary leaves out. Avery called Halbach three times that day, twice using *67, he specifically requested Auto Trader send her out, some of the bone fragments found had melted pieces of the tire that Avery burned attached to them. The documentary definitely does ignore some of the pieces that convicted Avery.

That said, there's no way it happened the way the prosecution asserts. The Dassey story would have left blood and DNA all over Avery's trailer, while their follow up that she was shot in the garage is completely implausible because there's no DNA found outside the bullet.

My problem with the case is that it requires you to believe Steven Avery is two things: a criminal mastermind and a bumbling moron. He was smart enough to remove all his fingerprints from the vehicle, yet stupid enough to leave his blood all over the interior. He was smart enough to get rid of her car, but stupid enough to keep it on his property and not use the car crusher he had. He was smart enough to get rid of the body, but stupid enough to not use the smelter on his property and after burning it 20 feet from his house, scattered the remains to two additional burn sites. He was smart enough to scrub all DNA out of the garage (or presumably set up a Dexter-style kill room) but stupid enough to leave the bullet behind. He was smart enough to remove all traces of Teresa from his house but stupid enough to leave the RAV-4 key there with his DNA on it.

I think it's pretty clear the guy is no genius. His lawyer from 1985 at one point said of the murder something to the effect of "it seems to sophisticated for Steven." I think that's dead on. The one crime Steven Avery is guilty of is that he's not very bright. If that was worthy of a life sentence, however, 25% of our population would need to be locked up.

[jsglow]

Chick and I started it last night and are 3-4 episodes in.  Compelling stuff.  I'll make a couple of preliminary comments.

1) I don't remember any of the prosecutorial overreach or Avery wrongful conviction in 1985 ever being highlighted in the mainstreet press as the trial unfolded.  The October 2005 timeline is pretty compelling.  I had no knowledge of these circumstances at the time even though I marginally followed the case via jsonline.  I find that fact itself somewhat curious.  Was I THAT out of the loop or was it downplayed?  My guess is the latter.  I don't miss too much typically.

2) Recall that the 'rules of evidence' do not apply in a documentary.  It's important not to take 'as complete' the film we're watching.  I'm not suggesting that the filmmakers are fabricating anything but context is always important.

3) For the conspiracy theory to be accurate, one must believe it went well beyond Manty.  Would public officials arrange a murder and pin it on a guy to stop a wrongful imprisonment lawsuit?  Would they get their buddies in Calumet Co. to go along?  Is every public official that corrupt?  All the judges in the tank?  Did Avery's seemingly solid defense team fail to present any of this conspiracy evidence and convince even one juror?

4) This is a filmmaker's dream.  You're doing this nice little documentary on the wrongful imprisonment of a guy and BANG, right in the middle this story happens right in front of you.  You already have the family's trust and keep going allowing events to take you wherever.  My kid would kill for this.  But knowing what I know about making these things,  95% of the real time film is on the editing room floor.  Just remember that as you watch.

Bottom line.  I'm driving the speed limit next time I'm in town.       

[brewcity77]

Chick and I started it last night and are 3-4 episodes in.  Compelling stuff.  I'll make a couple of preliminary comments.

1) I don't remember any of the prosecutorial overreach or Avery wrongful conviction in 1985 ever being highlighted in the mainstreet press as the trial unfolded.  The October 2005 timeline is pretty compelling.  I had no knowledge of these circumstances at the time even though I marginally followed the case via jsonline.  I find that fact itself somewhat curious.  Was I THAT out of the loop or was it downplayed?  My guess is the latter.  I don't miss too much typically.

2) Recall that the 'rules of evidence' do not apply in a documentary.  It's important not to take 'as complete' the film we're watching.  I'm not suggesting that the filmmakers are fabricating anything but context is always important.

3) For the conspiracy theory to be accurate, one must believe it went well beyond Manty.  Would public officials arrange a murder and pin it on a guy to stop a wrongful imprisonment lawsuit?  Would they get their buddies in Calumet Co. to go along?  Is every public official that corrupt?  All the judges in the tank?  Did Avery's seemingly solid defense team fail to present any of this conspiracy evidence and convince even one juror?

4) This is a filmmaker's dream.  You're doing this nice little documentary on the wrongful imprisonment of a guy and BANG, right in the middle this story happens right in front of you.  You already have the family's trust and keep going allowing events to take you wherever.  My kid would kill for this.  But knowing what I know about making these things,  95% of the real time film is on the editing room floor.  Just remember that as you watch.

Bottom line.  I'm driving the speed limit next time I'm in town.       

Thoughts...

1) I was working in local news at the time. I remember what a huge flip this was from Avery being celebrated as the model of the wrongly convicted to being vilified overnight. I don't think close to all of this came out, because the prosecution did a good job of painting the conspiracy theory as a crazy, out-there theory, and as the documentary will later note, it's really difficult to convince the jury that the police are the bad guys. There may have been some that believed the conspiracy, but I do think that was a minority, even in the media.

2) Yup. Have to think of their agenda, which is pretty clear. That said, there was a lot of context I think many of us missed at the time that the documentary does a good job of collecting.

3) Bear in mind while the venue changed to Calumet County, the judge and jury were still from Manitowoc. Honestly, I don't even get the point of a change of venue in this case unless it's to reduce the number of people in the audience. I think it's conceivable that 1-2 cops could have planted the evidence and spent the next few months applying pressure to the investigators. Had Avery's lawsuit gone through, Manitowoc would have been on the hook for $36M, have to think it could have bankrupted the county. Lots of motivation for lots of people to not really make things easy on Avery.

4) Yes, it definitely is.

[jsglow]

Brew, I think your right about a lot of this.  Seems to me that a corrupt Manty team certainly could have planted the evidence on a totally insecure site out at the salvage yard. Let's not give away any info here but having a murder dropped in their lap on or about 11/1/05 certainly could have gotten the Manty brains thinking 'opportunity'.

[Ellenson Guerrero]

Brew, I think your right about a lot of this.  Seems to me that a corrupt Manty team certainly could have planted the evidence on a totally insecure site out at the salvage yard. Let's not give away any info here but having a murder dropped in their lap on or about 11/1/05 certainly could have gotten the Manty brains thinking 'opportunity'.

The comments of the female cop filming the trailer all but prove that the department felt this was their lucky day.

[Jay Bee]

Avery's sweat on the key.. Avery's sweat under the hood of the car... coppers planted that too?

[brewcity77]

Avery's sweat on the key.. Avery's sweat under the hood of the car... coppers planted that too?

The key for me is one of the most damning pieces of evidence that it was a frame. They searched his bedroom four straight days and suddenly, miraculously the key "falls out" of the bookshelf that had already been stripped clean previously, and is discovered by the two sheriffs that were most consistently pointed at as the culprits of the frame, guys that based on statements from Manitowoc should not have even been on the property? Not only that, but how is Avery's DNA on that key but Halbach's isn't? Again, that would suggest he was smart enough to wipe the key down, but stupid enough to afterwards contaminate it and leave it in the most obvious place possible? And while it was found with relative ease, that was after four days of searching that same room, and by the two guys deposed in the Avery lawsuit and presumably with the most to lose?

Maybe Avery killed her, maybe someone else did, but I have no doubt whatsoever that the key was planted, especially since it seemed pretty clear from the dispatch tapes that Colborn found Halbach's vehicle before it was found on the Avery property.

[Hards Alumni]

The comments of the female cop filming the trailer all but prove that the department felt this was their lucky day.

The key for me is one of the most damning pieces of evidence that it was a frame. They searched his bedroom four straight days and suddenly, miraculously the key "falls out" of the bookshelf that had already been stripped clean previously, and is discovered by the two sheriffs that were most consistently pointed at as the culprits of the frame, guys that based on statements from Manitowoc should not have even been on the property? Not only that, but how is Avery's DNA on that key but Halbach's isn't? Again, that would suggest he was smart enough to wipe the key down, but stupid enough to afterwards contaminate it and leave it in the most obvious place possible? And while it was found with relative ease, that was after four days of searching that same room, and by the two guys deposed in the Avery lawsuit and presumably with the most to lose?

Maybe Avery killed her, maybe someone else did, but I have no doubt whatsoever that the key was planted, especially since it seemed pretty clear from the dispatch tapes that Colborn found Halbach's vehicle before it was found on the Avery property.

That is what gets me.  If Avery did such a great job of hiding everything else, how on earth can he be so careless as to leave the key next to his shoes in his bedroom?  It is a total crock.  Also ZERO DNA on the key of Teresa Halbach?  COME ON.

[jsglow]

Brew, you indicated you were in the media at the time.  Did you follow (or cover) this closely in real time?  Are you well-versed on the 'facts' without reliance on the film?  (I'm trying very hard to stay objective and highly skeptical. eg: I KNOW OJ did it.)

[Hards Alumni]

Avery's sweat on the key.. Avery's sweat under the hood of the car... coppers planted that too?

Easily.  He is clearly a pretty grubby guy and probably had sweaty dirty clothes laying around the entire house.  Pit stained T-shirt... and I have 8 days to figure it out?

Give me break.

[warriorchick]

Easily.  He is clearly a pretty grubby guy and probably had sweaty dirty clothes laying around the entire house.  Pit stained T-shirt... and I have 8 days to figure it out?

Give me break.

Yeah, we are talking about a guy who had the fact that he did not own underwear entered into evidence in his rape trial.

[brewcity77]

Brew, you indicated you were in the media at the time.  Did you follow (or cover) this closely in real time?  Are you well-versed on the 'facts' without reliance on the film?  (I'm trying very hard to stay objective and highly skeptical. eg: I KNOW OJ did it.)

I was following it from Milwaukee, but at the time, I was involved far more in the production side of the news than the content. We got all the information to look at and edit, but it was the reporters and producers that were most intimate with the details. Watching this has jogged a ton of my memory, but there were definitely some things that were public that I didn't remember.

What really amazes me is that I remember vividly how most of us felt the conspiracy theory was a huge reach by the defense. I think one of the problems the defense faced in terms of public perception is that stories are generally told in 2-3 minute increments. I was following the story mostly through our own coverage, and while I remember the basic facts without the film, a ton of this has jogged my memory.

Based on what I knew then, I definitely went into this thinking 100% Avery was guilty. After watching 9/10 of the documentary, I would now say I feel he is 90% innocent, and 100% it did not happen the way the prosecution claimed. Even considering the additional information I am aware of, I don't think there's nearly enough to not get him off on reasonable doubt.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

There was also the absolute refusal to look at other suspects.

The victim's ex-boyfriend as well as her roommate should have been investigated further. The ex admitted to "guessing" her voicemail password and listening to messages after her disappearance. He claimed not to have erased anything yet voicemails were erased. The roommate did not report her missing for a few days.

Then there was Brendan Dassey's brother and step-father, who both had access to the property and whose only alibis were happening to see each other driving down the road during the timeframe in question, when a school bus driver contradicted the timing of the story that was told.

I also read that there was a man in the area whose wife had reported him after some very off behavior that could have led one to believe he should be looked into but that was also ignored.

I'm beyond stunned that Avery's nephew was never granted a new trial after everything that was presented during his appeal.

[onetime]

*SPOILER ALERT*

Anyone here from Manitowac?
How has this affected your community?

I grew up in Manitowoc, my folks still live there.  Even after watching the series, I believe most people in the Manitowoc area still think Avery is guilty, simply because people in that area know what type of people the Avery's are and the things that family has done over the years.   I'm not saying people haven't raised their eyebrows when they saw the type of work done by the MCSD on this case,...  but I think many in the community still believe he's responsible, regardless of the series. 

[brandx]

Chick and I started it last night and are 3-4 episodes in.  Compelling stuff.  I'll make a couple of preliminary comments.

4) This is a filmmaker's dream.  You're doing this nice little documentary on the wrongful imprisonment of a guy and BANG, right in the middle this story happens right in front of you.  You already have the family's trust and keep going allowing events to take you wherever.  My kid would kill for this.  But knowing what I know about making these things,  95% of the real time film is on the editing room floor.  Just remember that as you watch.
     

This is key to me. Doing a sympathetic story already, and being close to the family will definitely cloud what is put in the show and what is on the cutting room floor.

[Jay Bee]

Re-try him in a death state and burn him at the stake while stoning him!!!!!!!!!!!

[brandx]

Re-try him in a death state and burn him at the stake while stoning him!!!!!!!!!!!

Old, angry, white men.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Re-try him in a death state and burn him at the stake while stoning him!!!!!!!!!!!

Jay Bee was the jury foreman.

[warriorchick]

Here's the important question:  Who is that young silver fox reporter and why is he being wasted in that small market? 

[jsglow]

I grew up in Manitowoc, my folks still live there.  Even after watching the series, I believe most people in the Manitowoc area still think Avery is guilty, simply because people in that area know what type of people the Avery's are and the things that family has done over the years.   I'm not saying people haven't raised their eyebrows when they saw the type of work done by the MCSD on this case,...  but I think many in the community still believe he's responsible, regardless of the series.

Isn't that part of the problem?  Those dirty people out the Mishicot way?

[Spotcheck Billy]

I also read that there was a man in the area whose wife had reported him after some very off behavior that could have led one to believe he should be looked into but that was also ignored.

the German guy discussed on Reddit who's wife found burnt lace panties in his possession

[rocket surgeon]

The key for me is one of the most damning pieces of evidence that it was a frame. They searched his bedroom four straight days and suddenly, miraculously the key "falls out" of the bookshelf that had already been stripped clean previously, and is discovered by the two sheriffs that were most consistently pointed at as the culprits of the frame, guys that based on statements from Manitowoc should not have even been on the property? Not only that, but how is Avery's DNA on that key but Halbach's isn't? Again, that would suggest he was smart enough to wipe the key down, but stupid enough to afterwards contaminate it and leave it in the most obvious place possible? And while it was found with relative ease, that was after four days of searching that same room, and by the two guys deposed in the Avery lawsuit and presumably with the most to lose?

Maybe Avery killed her, maybe someone else did, but I have no doubt whatsoever that the key was planted, especially since it seemed pretty clear from the dispatch tapes that Colborn found Halbach's vehicle before it was found on the Avery property.

no big deal-al franken's re-election team gave them a few pointers-heyna?

this is evolving as a real nice thread-nice input and observations. there are too many ups and downs to make sense out the conviction at minimum.  i'm going to be continuing to watch the docu.  as soon as the MU game is over-maybe sooner if we don't turn this game around

[rocket surgeon]

Isn't that part of the problem?  Those dirty people out the Mishicot way?

absolutely agree.  if they can't separate their opinions and feelings about the avery's, they don't belong on the case.  i can't believe the manitowoc police had that much hate on the guy to wrongly send him to prison while they allowed gregory allen to remain free and put the community in harms way-he did rape (only?) 2 more people.  fortunately didn't kill anyone...that they know of