Utah St. bars transfer from speaking to ... anyone

[GGGG]

Since we're using Twitter now as awesome sauce......maybe we should go one step further into the murky abyss and go to the Utah State message boards?  Rock solid stuff there.   

I am not "using Twitter as a source."  I am using a guy who hosts a sports radio show in Salt Lake as a source.  He simply told the story via twitter.

[Jay Bee]

Sounds a little squirmy.

But I do have a question.  The article indicates that the university 'cancelling athletic aid for the rest of the semester'.  Does that mean they've cancelled his scholly?  If so, wouldn't that be some kind of violation?  If they can prevent him from talking to other schools should they be forced to honor all aspects of his scholarship?

Athletic aid language is generally "we will give you athletic aid in exchange for you participating as a athlete on our bball team."

If the player decides he's not going to honor the scholarship provisions, then I think they're OK to do the same.

[jsglow]

Athletic aid language is generally "we will give you athletic aid in exchange for you participating as a athlete on our bball team."

If the player decides he's not going to honor the scholarship provisions, then I think they're OK to do the same.

Okay, that part makes perfect sense.  So the player violates his end of the contract by refusing to play and the university responds by cutting off his aid.  Obviously tuition, books and housing for the semester have already been paid.  Fair enough.  Seems legitimate so far.  So now the student says he's calling Marquette and Creighton, for example and he understands that he'll have to sit out a year, etc.  But Wojo can't talk to him or offer?  I guess what I don't understand is how the original university can impose further sanctions once they cut off his aid because in legal terms there's no further consideration.  Now if they continued to provide benefits (consideration), it seems to me that they can continue to impose whatever requirements are customary. 

And let's leave out a tampering situation because that would have been a clear violation while the student was under scholarship.  I talking about an individual's right to negotiate a new deal with a university not alleged to have tampered.  It seems to me that this contract is functioning like a 'non-compete'  but that there's no consideration for that contract going forward once this semester ends.

Where the h*ll are the scoop lawyers here.  I only play one on TV. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

Back to original question, has it ever ended BADLY for a program?  Wisconsin really took a hit!!   

These kids know the rules so many want to make them out like victims.  Give me a break.  This particular kid could have transferred at the end of the season, or during the Summer, or even during the first month.....but he waits until 2 days before the season starts and then has the gall to say "poor me, please let me do anything I want".  Tough titties.   You'll get to wait....nice life lesson for you Mr. Collette.  When we bail on a team, an organization, a business, etc, at the 11th hour and you are under an agreement, the rules of that agreement are going to be enforced.   He would have gotten a lot further along if he had done this months ago, with some class toward his teammates and the university that offered him to begin with.

Boo hoo.

[GGGG]

Back to original question, has it ever ended BADLY for a program?  Wisconsin really took a hit!!   

They did.  They took a bad PR hit and caved in allowing him to go to Iowa.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Retired

I thought legends live on?  In this case, Stew recruited this kid and had his long time assistant replace him in Year 1 here.  Shouldn't a kid have the right to play for the coach we wants to?  Obviously th chemistry isn't right with the new coach and the JUCO-laden roster Stew left.  7 on the Squirm-O-Meter for not releasing him.

[ChicosBailBonds]

“Utah State University has followed all applicable NCAA procedures and applied consistent internal practices in declining the request for release. David Collette chose to leave Utah State two days prior to its season-opening contest, which hamstrung the team in terms of recruiting a new player to that position or even practicing with other players for that position. The timing of David’s decision to leave the team is the reason Utah State is handling his release this way.”

Collette has since appealed Utah State’s decision. If the appeal is denied, Collette will not be granted any athletic aid and will have to pay his own tuition out of pocket.

Good for them!  The appeal is in December, we'll see where it goes. 

[Jay Bee]

Okay, that part makes perfect sense.  So the player violates his end of the contract by refusing to play and the university responds by cutting off his aid.  Obviously tuition, books and housing for the semester have already been paid.  Fair enough.  Seems legitimate so far.  So now the student says he's calling Marquette and Creighton, for example and he understands that he'll have to sit out a year, etc.  But Wojo can't talk to him or offer?  I guess what I don't understand is how the original university can impose further sanctions once they cut off his aid because in legal terms there's no further consideration.  Now if they continued to provide benefits (consideration), it seems to me that they can continue to impose whatever requirements are customary. 

Let's say I hire you. You'll work for me in exchange for a salary, and we also agree to a non-compete. You stop showing up to work, so I stop paying you.

That doesn't mean you can also violate the non-compete.

[ChicosBailBonds]

They did.  They took a bad PR hit and caved in allowing him to go to Iowa.

Did it hurt their program?  No.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I thought legends live on?  In this case, Stew recruited this kid and had his long time assistant replace him in Year 1 here.  Shouldn't a kid have the right to play for the coach we wants to?  Obviously th chemistry isn't right with the new coach and the JUCO-laden roster Stew left.  7 on the Squirm-O-Meter for not releasing him.

Sure....and the kid should have transferred at the end of the season, or during the summer, or at the beginning of the semester....instead he quit 2 days before the season started.

[jsglow]

Let's say I hire you. You'll work for me in exchange for a salary, and we also agree to a non-compete. You stop showing up to work, so I stop paying you.

That doesn't mean you can also violate the non-compete.

Totally agree.  But that's not really answering my question.  Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless?  Has this ever happened before?

Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Totally agree.  But that's not really answering my question.  Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless?  Has this ever happened before?

Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.

The NLI does not....the NLI has nothing to do with it in my opinion.  He signed a grant in aid (whatever term they use these days), however.  He then quit the team.  When he quits the team, the grant goes away but the transfer rules stay in tact.

Yes, this has happened before.

[Jay Bee]

Totally agree.  But that's not really answering my question.  Do signed NLIs dictate that the player is bound to the university for 4 years, absent a release? Further, that his refusal to play is a breech responded to by rescinding his benefits but that he remains bound nevertheless?  Has this ever happened before?

Understand that what I'm interested in here is the contract issue, not the merit of the university decision.

The NLI isn't relevant here. NLI are optional and can be entered into prior to initial enrollment. They are relevant for the first year only (they do not bind for 4 years). Complete non-issue in this matter as this was a returning player.

Each year, a school renews financial aid (if they so choose). Typically you'd see language such as "aid can be immediately canceled if A, B or C occur" and would include voluntary withdrawal from the sport. The school signs, as does the student-athlete each year.

So, the canceling of aid is pretty straightforward and would be well documented in the renewal agreement.

The TRANSFER rules are dictated by the NCAA, not the specific financial aid agreement. Utah State is playing by the NCAA's rules. The transfer rules are what they are and don't provide for a "if you quit the team and your aid is canceled, then you can go talk to whoever you'd like" clause.

[jsglow]

The NLI isn't relevant here. NLI are optional and can be entered into prior to initial enrollment. They are relevant for the first year only (they do not bind for 4 years). Complete non-issue in this matter as this was a returning player.

Each year, a school renews financial aid (if they so choose). Typically you'd see language such as "aid can be immediately canceled if A, B or C occur" and would include voluntary withdrawal from the sport. The school signs, as does the student-athlete each year.

So, the canceling of aid is pretty straightforward and would be well documented in the renewal agreement.

The TRANSFER rules are dictated by the NCAA, not the specific financial aid agreement. Utah State is playing by the NCAA's rules. The transfer rules are what they are and don't provide for a "if you quit the team and your aid is canceled, then you can go talk to whoever you'd like" clause.

Perfect.  Thanks.

[GGGG]

Did it hurt their program?  No.

Neither you nor I really know this.  Of course PR losses are ones that can be weathered, but how might the Utoff incident be playing out on the recruiting circles?  You have no clue.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Sure....and the kid should have transferred at the end of the season, or during the summer, or at the beginning of the semester....instead he quit 2 days before the season started.

So the kid had a couple of weeks of practice with the new coach who by all accounts was out of control for a religious kid and it it is on the kid?  Lol  your Buddy Buzz even let McKay go out and take transfer calls while stil enrolled. Wrong. Utah State was squirmy.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Neither you nor I really know this.  Of course PR losses are ones that can be weathered, but how might the Utoff incident be playing out on the recruiting circles?  You have no clue.

Fair enough, but then equally when we hear that it serves schools no good to stick to their rights that were agreed to with the grand in aid, that is equally bogus.  No one knows if it does harm or not.

Especially in a world where 4 year scholarship grand-in aid are now provided. 

[ChicosBailBonds]

So the kid had a couple of weeks of practice with the new coach who by all accounts was out of control for a religious kid and it it is n the kid?  Lol  your Buddy Buzz even let McKay go out and take transfer calls while stil enrolled. Wrong. Utah State was squirmy.

The coach was the assistant coach the year prior and the primary recruiter of the kid.  He has been at Utah State for 14 years.

"Who by all accounts was out of control"....please, provide all of these conclusive accounts.

Utah State is playing this exactly by the NCAA book, and you guys are outraged by it....the irony of bringing Buzz into this who didn't exactly go by the NCAA book on things. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

The coach was the assistant coach the year prior and the primary recruiter of the kid.  He has been at Utah State for 14 years.

"Who by all accounts was out of control"....please, provide all of these conclusive accounts.

Utah State is playing this exactly by the NCAA book, and you guys are outraged by it....the irony of bringing Buzz into this who didn't exactly go by the NCAA book on things.

Well, I guess the accounts was the kid which is all that really matters to normal people.

Collette vehemently denies that any other program influenced his decision by expressing interest directly to him or through a third party. He instead attributes his abrupt exit to a deteriorating relationship between him and Duryea, a longtime Utah State assistant who ascended to head coach when Stew Morrill retired last spring.

One of Collette's issues with Duryea stems from his alleged use of the phrase "you might as well shoot yourself in the back of the head" when speaking with the team. Though Utah State said Duryea apologized to Collette when told the phrase was insensitive, Collette recalls differently. He said the coach laughed it off and told him it was just a figure of speech.

Another of Collette's issues stemmed from a fight in practice in which one player allegedly sucker punched another in the back of the head. Utah State said in its statement to Yahoo Sports that "punishment for the incident was handed out and seen through," but Collette was uncomfortable with how Duryea downplayed the incident and demanded players stay silent about it.

"He told us not to tell anyone about it — not even family members — because he didn't want the media to find out," Collette said. "Why tell your players to shove it under the rug? If you're a coach telling your players to shove something under the rug, you're obviously not doing something right."

Incidents like those wore on Collette until he could no longer envision playing another year for Duryea. Collette felt guilty about letting down his teammates by quitting so close to the start of the season, but he said they were "understanding and supportive" when he addressed them.

It didn't take long for Collette to realize Utah State coaches and administrators would not be quite so gracious. He received an email the day after he said he was leaving informing him the school was canceling his athletic aid for the remainder of the semester.

And your source on Buzz which we have been waiting for?  And, in an exact same situation, your elbow rubbing buddy, Larry Williams, released McKay, God bless him.  I vote with Larry on this one.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Well, I guess the accounts was the kid which is all that really matters to normal people.

So ALL accounts mean only his point of view, not the head coach, not the coaching staff, not his teammates....ALL = one kid?  Interesting.  And that's also all that really matters to normal people.

I'd love to know what "out of control" means, since that wasn't even attempted to be defined.

Got it.  All = one.  Normal people = whatever your POV on the matter is.  "Out of control" = TBD

And your source on Buzz which we have been waiting for?  And, in an exact same situation, your elbow rubbing buddy, Larry Williams, released McKay, God bless him.  I vote with Larry on this one.

Schools can do whatever they wish, including sticking to their guns.  I'm glad Utah State is doing that.  MU went in a different direction for McKay, for others MU did NOT go in that direction until they had a chance to talk to certain players.  Tyshawn Taylor is one such example, but there are others. 

Each situation is different.  USU is doing the right thing on this one and going through the appeals process for the kid, while also finding out if schools were tampering with him.  Sorry it doesn't fit his timeline, welcome to the big city kid.