Another Big East Expansion Discussion

[WarriorInNYC]

Some would argue that the very founding of this iteration of the Big East was a sound decision, but early (not a bad thing per se). 

Who knows what is going to happen on the football side over the next 5-10 years, but I would bet that there will be more like minded candidates in that time frame rather than less.  So in my mind I would let things play out for a few years, see what the next shoe is that drops in football - then pounce when it happens.  You can always add the candidates that are being thrown about today (as referenced above they don't have a better choice) -- however once you add them you lose some flexibility to add some more attractive schools down the road.

This is a very solid point.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Also, adding Gonzaga and a western partner doesn't solve the Providence/Creighton pairing that the Big East is using for WBB.  What a terrible weekend that has to be.

Sure, but most guys who play high level D1 hoops have NBA aspirations. So my guess is the travel wouldn't be that big of a deal, and if it is, they're really gonna hate the NBa.

[brewcity77]

Okay...absolute unrealistic dream scenario, the only two schools I see in the country that are worth going out of the way for are UConn and Notre Dame. I don't see UConn dropping football and ND is now pretty soundly tied to the ACC.

I suppose Temple and Memphis have the history to warrant inclusion, but I'm not sure either are particularly good philosophical fits. Both are public schools with football.

If one of those became available, I'd say go for it. Ideally two of those, but if UConn suddenly (never will happen) dropped football (they won't, pipe dream) then I would say grab them and take Dayton along with to balance numbers. UConn would be worth it, and Dayton, no matter what any critics may say, is a good (albeit divisive) fit.

The idea of Gonzaga and BYU joining as travel partners is kind of ludicrous. Why? Okay...for starters, Spokane and Provo are 763 miles apart. If that makes for ideal travel partners, let's get Pitt back into the league and have them be travel partners with Marquette, because Milwaukee and Pittsburgh are geographically closer. And that's not factoring how far they both will have to go once they get together. The closest Big East destination is another 948 miles from Provo (Omaha for Creighton). These aren't pro teams, these are religious schools out west. It is a complete non-starter. Not to mention the time zone differences that will have Gonzaga playing games at 4 pm local time (while on the East Coast) or East Coast teams tipping off at 10 pm local time (when visiting the Zags).

Expansion only makes sense if the circumstances are right. No one west of Creighton makes sense. St. Louis may as well be Fordham for how good they are right now. Public schools are pretty much a non-starter. The only right move is to wait and expand when it's a clear, no-brainer team that you have to have.

The only team I see out there that might ever fit that mold is UConn. If you can get UConn, I'd even let them park football (as long as there's a $40M league exit fee) and then take Dayton. Don't take Dayton for their own sake, but if that perfect team comes up, let Dayton be the compliment addition.

Beyond that, 10 teams and a round-robin schedule is perfect.

[GGGG]

Some would argue that the very founding of this iteration of the Big East was a sound decision, but early (not a bad thing per se). 

Who knows what is going to happen on the football side over the next 5-10 years, but I would bet that there will be more like minded candidates in that time frame rather than less.  So in my mind I would let things play out for a few years, see what the next shoe is that drops in football - then pounce when it happens.  You can always add the candidates that are being thrown about today (as referenced above they don't have a better choice) -- however once you add them you lose some flexibility to add some more attractive schools down the road.

I agree with you in philosophy, but I think 5-10 years is too short a timeframe to discuss schools dropping football.  Right now, across all of the NCAA and NAIA, there are a record number of schools with football.  Over 770.  There are 128 in FBS, with four programs making their full transition this year.

The financial model is going to have to fall awfully hard and fast to fit that 5-10 year timeframe, and I just don't see it.

However 5-10 years is going to have to be when the BE has to look at expansion in preparation for its next TV deal.

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

I agree with you in philosophy, but I think 5-10 years is too short a timeframe to discuss schools dropping football.  Right now, across all of the NCAA and NAIA, there are a record number of schools with football.  Over 770.  There are 128 in FBS, with four programs making their full transition this year.

The financial model is going to have to fall awfully hard and fast to fit that 5-10 year timeframe, and I just don't see it.

However 5-10 years is going to have to be when the BE has to look at expansion in preparation for its next TV deal.

I think you are interpreting my thought to be a little more linear than what I intended.  Will Football fall apart for some schools in the next decade....maybe -- who knows.  Will we know more about the next round of football consolidation, who are the winners and losers and where this whole thing is headed -- yes we will.  Who knows, maybe there is a next round of consolidation that eliminates one of the major conferences -- that could cause UCONN & CINCY to rethink their strategy. 

Worst case we know nothing more and we add Dayton - oh well.

So the over-arching point is that we split because football is driving the bus -- we have an advantage and a point of differentiation.  Let's learn a little more about the future before grabbing a bunch of teams we can have in 5 years.

[GGGG]

I think you are interpreting my thought to be a little more linear than what I intended.  Will Football fall apart for some schools in the next decade....maybe -- who knows.  Will we know more about the next round of football consolidation, who are the winners and losers and where this whole thing is headed -- yes we will.  Who knows, maybe there is a next round of consolidation that eliminates one of the major conferences -- that could cause UCONN & CINCY to rethink their strategy. 

Worst case we know nothing more and we add Dayton - oh well.

So the over-arching point is that we split because football is driving the bus -- we have an advantage and a point of differentiation.  Let's learn a little more about the future before grabbing a bunch of teams we can have in 5 years.

Good thoughts.  I agree.  No need to expand for expansion sake right now.

[wadesworld]

The Big East has started using travel partners for Women's Basketball.  For example, St. John's plays Marquette on Friday night, while Seton Hall plays DePaul.  Flip flop for another game on Sunday afternoon.

Yup.

BYU has its own television network already.  I'm skeptical as to how that would play out with FS1.

Yup.

[brewcity77]

So the over-arching point is that we split because football is driving the bus -- we have an advantage and a point of differentiation.  Let's learn a little more about the future before grabbing a bunch of teams we can have in 5 years.

This is exactly how I feel about Dayton. At any time, they would be available as a "second" team no matter who the companion addition was. UConn, Cincy, Gonzaga, Wichita State, VCU, whatever name someone decides to throw darts in the wall at, Dayton would happily slit their mother's throat to come along.

Only expand when it's for a team that you feel you "have to have", and if you need a second, Dayton will be there.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Weve been talking a lot about what the Big East should want in an expansion target.  We should really be talking about what does Fox want in an expansion target. They will only approve more money if the teams are worth the cash. So what is Fox looking for? In order:

1) Significant media market: this kills Dayton, Wichita state, etc

2) New media market: this kills George Washington, Fordham, Loyola,  st. Joe's, etc.

3) Will drive a national audience to watch games (most important): this kills Richmond, Denver, Davidson, old dominion, saint Louis, Boston university, etc

Who does that leave? Football schools (uconn, nd, Memphis, etc), maybe vcu (depends on life after shaka), and Gonzaga/BYU.

I know we have our objections about public schools, football schools, abd west coast schools. Fox doesn't share our objections. They would love to add any school that drives a national audience. Hell, west coast schools would give them some late night programming options. Fox isn't going to pony up more money for teams like Dayton and SLU so they shouldn't even be on the list.

So if we are going to expand, we have to find a way to do it with football, public, or west coast schools. And we will have to expand. We aren't making enough to justify our contact with Fox. If we want to get this kind of deal again, we need to find a way to drive more eyeballs to our games. Expansion is the easiest way to do that

[UticaBusBarn]

Weve been talking a lot about what the Big East should want in an expansion target.  We should really be talking about what does Fox want in an expansion target. They will only approve more money if the teams are worth the cash. So what is Fox looking for? In order:

1) Significant media market: this kills Dayton, Wichita state, etc

2) New media market: this kills George Washington, Fordham, Loyola,  st. Joe's, etc.

3) Will drive a national audience to watch games (most important): this kills Richmond, Denver, Davidson, old dominion, saint Louis, Boston university, etc

Who does that leave? Football schools (uconn, nd, Memphis, etc), maybe vcu (depends on life after shaka), and Gonzaga/BYU.

I know we have our objections about public schools, football schools, abd west coast schools. Fox doesn't share our objections. They would love to add any school that drives a national audience. Hell, west coast schools would give them some late night programming options. Fox isn't going to pony up more money for teams like Dayton and SLU so they shouldn't even be on the list.

So if we are going to expand, we have to find a way to do it with football, public, or west coast schools. And we will have to expand. We aren't making enough to justify our contact with Fox. If we want to get this kind of deal again, we need to find a way to drive more eyeballs to our games. Expansion is the easiest way to do that

Spot on. It is all about media markets and programming.

[🏀]

Seriously, guys? It takes me to find this thread and say this? C'mom, we're better than this.

ABD.

ABD.

ABD.




Their fanbase is the STL Cardinals of NCAA Basketball.

[MarquetteDano]

Their fanbase is the STL Cardinals of NCAA Basketball.

As a Cubs fan I cannot agree with this.  The Cardinals at least have won consistently for their fans' attitude.  What has Dayton done for their fan's attitudes?

[🏀]

As a Cubs fan I cannot agree with this.  The Cardinals at least have won consistently for their fans' attitude.  What has Dayton done for their fan's attitudes?

Not sure, but it's there.

[brewcity77]

Seriously, guys? It takes me to find this thread and say this? C'mom, we're better than this.

ABD.

ABD.

ABD.




Their fanbase is the STL Cardinals of NCAA Basketball.

Yes, their online fans are obnoxious, but they have a passionate fanbase and have won consistently over the past 20 years.

And no matter how obnoxious a few online fans may be, they won't be worse than the drunken Creighton fans that were trying to start fights in the stands and brought MPD into the stands. If Creighton is good enough for the Big East, Dayton is too.

Who else ticks the boxes like Dayton? Jesuit? Check. Winning program? Check. Commitment to basketball? Check. Natural geographical fit? Check. Recent high level success? Check.

ABD is silly because when you look at the A10, the MVC, the Horizon, and the other leagues we could conceivably poach, there just isn't that much there.

Seriously, barring a major geographical outlier like Gonzaga, a football pipe dream school like UConn or Notre Dame, or a combination of the two like BYU, who is the "Anyone" out there that is a better fit than Dayton? And not expanding wouldn't be a viable answer, because saying "ABD" implicitly indicates a desire to expand with other teams. Who are they?

[🏀]

Yes, their online fans are obnoxious, but they have a passionate fanbase and have won consistently over the past 20 years.

And no matter how obnoxious a few online fans may be, they won't be worse than the drunken Creighton fans that were trying to start fights in the stands and brought MPD into the stands. If Creighton is good enough for the Big East, Dayton is too.

Who else ticks the boxes like Dayton? Jesuit? Check. Winning program? Check. Commitment to basketball? Check. Natural geographical fit? Check. Recent high level success? Check.

ABD is silly because when you look at the A10, the MVC, the Horizon, and the other leagues we could conceivably poach, there just isn't that much there.

Seriously, barring a major geographical outlier like Gonzaga, a football pipe dream school like UConn or Notre Dame, or a combination of the two like BYU, who is the "Anyone" out there that is a better fit than Dayton? And not expanding wouldn't be a viable answer, because saying "ABD" implicitly indicates a desire to expand with other teams. Who are they?

It's beyond their online fans as well.

They have a football program, automatic pass as their second strike.

They don't bring a new TV market, which is their third strike.

Also, not Jesuit.

No need to expand just to include garbage.

[GoldenWarrior11]

It's beyond their online fans as well.

They have a football program, automatic pass as their second strike.

They don't bring a new TV market, which is their third strike.

Also, not Jesuit.

No need to expand just to include garbage.

Couple of things:  Their football program is in the Pioneer Football League (non-FBS) - the same as Butler.  Georgetown and Villanova also have FCS football.  Dayton and Cincinnati are different TV markets, even though they are somewhat close to each other.  Dayton brings the 8th most valuable college basketball TV market in the country.  Butler isn't Jesuit, neither is DePaul, Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall or Villanova.  All Big East schools are Private, 9 of which are Catholic.

Other than these items though, you were spot on.

[GGGG]

They have a football program like nova, butler and Georgetown have football programs. No biggie. They'd be a good addition.

[🏀]

Brewcity said they were Jesuit

[Eldon]

Brewcity said they were Jesuit

Definitely not Jesuit



Although, I should note that the accuracy of this map can be questioned, as they have placed Marquette University squarely in Sheboygan County.

In any case, I don't recall ever seeing Dayton's seal in Raynor.  I know that I would have remembered seeing it because I would have spit on it.

[wadesworld]

Definitely not Jesuit



Although, I should note that the accuracy of this map can be questioned, as they have placed Marquette University squarely in Sheboygan County.

In any case, I don't recall ever seeing Dayton's seal in Raynor.  I know that I would have remembered seeing it because I would have spit on it.

Dayton is Marionist.

[brewcity77]

Brewcity said they were Jesuit

I was wrong on that, but they're still Catholic. So basically, the entire refutation of my post is based on their branch of priests?

But the main question I'd have is still this: Who are the teams that would be a better fit than Dayton?

[Skatastrophy]

But the main question I'd have is still this: Who are the teams that would be a better fit than Dayton?

I think that's the problem. If there are no better candidates than Dayton or SLU, then we should not be expanding the conference.

[GGGG]

I think that's the problem. If there are no better candidates than Dayton or SLU, then we should not be expanding the conference.

Exactly.  Down the line it probably will be necessary to expand, and Dayton and SLU will still be available.

I think it's time to revisit what might be the wrongest post in the history of Scoop.  (And that's saying something.)

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=34539.msg422884#msg422884

[🏀]

I think that's the problem. If there are no better candidates than Dayton or SLU, then we should not be expanding the conference.

Nailed it

[chapman]

Seriously, guys? It takes me to find this thread and say this? C'mom, we're better than this.

ABD.

ABD.

ABD.

/thread