ESPN: Poll: Non-Power 5 wary of emerging 'second tier'

[Aughnanure]

College coaches talk postseason format change in ESPN survey
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/13563143/men-basketball-coaches-fear-separation-power-5-espn-poll-shows

By Andy Katz

College basketball coaches outside the Power 5 conferences are fearful of a breakup or a disruption of the current NCAA tournament format, an ESPN survey showed.

Some 150 Division I men's basketball coaches responded to the survey earlier this month. The coaches from outside the Power 5 (the ACC, Big Ten, Big 12, SEC and Pac-12), who requested anonymity, were in near concert that they're worried about a potential breakup.

"The thing I fear about the college game is that the BCS continues to separate and create a second tier within Division I,'' a coach from a smaller conference said. "That would be really bad for the game. March Madness is special because of the [George] Masons, VCUs and Butlers.''

The additional money that men's basketball players will receive due to the newly NCAA-allowed cost of attendance will be a recruiting advantage for some, according to an ESPN survey.

One coach from a conference considered just outside the Power 5 elaborated on his biggest concern: "The Power 5 schools breaking off from everyone else and forming their own association.''

The uncertainty has caused real angst with one coach, who asked, "Where will non-football schools be in 10-15 years from now?''

Another coach from a perennial one-bid league added: "There are more schools that are being forced to deal with what is being decided. It's no different than taxation without true representation.''

The survey also showed a split among some coaches -- depending on region -- on starting the regular season after the college football season ends. In addition, more would like to see the regular-season champion receive an automatic bid to the NCAA tournament in addition to the postseason tournament champ.

The only conference in which such a rule applies is the Ivy League, which doesn't have a conference tournament.

Conferences decide which schools will receive automatic berths to the NCAA tournament, and, other than the Ivy League, each has designated the conference tournament champion as the recipient.

"I would like to see the conference regular-season winner get the automatic bid,'' a coach from a Power 5 conference said. "The season is way too long. But giving the automatic bid to the regular season would make it more important.''

However, unbalanced schedules that prevent a true regular-season champ would be one problem a number of conferences would have with this format. The 10-member Big 12 is the only Power 5 conference that plays a true round-robin schedule. The 10-team, non-football-playing Big East also plays a similar schedule but is not in the Power 5.

"You should make the league champion of the regular season the automatic qualifier without a doubt,'' a coach from a Power 5 conference said. "But I do think doing that for the regular-season champion would make a lot of conference tournaments go away. When I was at the [one-bid conference] level, our season was three days in March.''

One coach from a conference that hasn't had multiple bids in more than 15 years added: "To make the regular season more meaningful, each of the automatic bid conferences should get two bids -- one for the regular season and one for the tourney champ. If the same team wins both, then you add to the at-large pool. This would require increasing the size of the tourney, but it would allow for the regular season to mean something and help all the schools that are not in a power conference. We already have the play-in games. It would just be more of them. Pretty simple.''

One idea a coach from a school out of the Power 5 floated is to create flex scheduling late in the season for television purposes to ensure the most intriguing games are highlighted across the sport. Currently, games on TV are predetermined.

"We need to do a better job of branding specific leagues and their style of play,'' the coach said. "Watching the Big East and ACC games used to be an event, but with the realignment, it's hard to establish new rivalries.''

There are schools like Kentucky, Kansas, Duke, North Carolina, Creighton, Villanova and Xavier at which garnering interest in regular-season games is never an issue -- even against their football-focused counterparts.

One coach from a one-bid conference added his take on the best way for college basketball to have more early-season relevance: "Hope that the NFL goes on strike.''

But pushing the start of the regular season to Thanksgiving or into December so college basketball could be a one-semester sport would run counter to programming on ESPN, CBS and Fox, as well as contractual agreements with in-season holiday tournaments.

"I know what it's like to be at a football school,'' one coach who used to be at a Power 5 school said. "Fans won't be fully committed to basketball usually until after football is over. ... At schools with great football programs, those basketball teams suffer. Their fan bases don't have two heartbeats; they have one, and the heartbeat is what sport is in season. During football season, the fans go to football. When football is over, they go to basketball.''

Pushing the NCAA tournament deeper into April or May is unlikely to happen as long as CBS owns any of the rights, with the Final Four as the lead-in to the Masters.

"If we could get the sponsors to do May Madness instead of March Madness, it makes a lot of sense to make it a one-semester sport,'' a Power 5 conference coach said. "Move the start date from November to late December. It would be great -- academically. But it's a huge paradigm shift for everyone involved.''

[GGGG]

I love coaches, but there are reasons they don't run the sport:

**Having potentially two bids per conference, for regular and tournament champ, is an absolute non starter.  Talk to your conference about it.  They are the ones that make the decision about how to crown a champion.  (They choose the tournament because it makes the tournament rights valuable.)

**Starting the season after college football ends is also never going to happen.  The tournament falls in a perfect time frame - after the football playoffs and before the Masters and baseball.  The NCAA isn't going to sacrifice $$$ to get larger in-person crowds during the first few weeks of the year.

**The P5 isn't going anywhere as long as they get their way with regards to football. 

[CAGASS24]

ugh - i hate this - even as a diehard college football fan - I would say start the season in late December and do the two bid system for the little guys suggested - but I only say this to prevent what looks to be feared by many as an uglier alternative

[bilsu]

This is the biggest reason Wojo will not stay at MU his whole career.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

The "Power 5" are not going to break away from the rest of the sport. 

That said, f*ck college football. 

[GGGG]

DeCourcy's response:

Michael DeCourcy ‏@tsnmike  3m3 minutes ago

Chock full of truly terrible, self-serving, tunnel-visioned ideas from college hoops coaches.

[Aughnanure]

I still refuse to believe the P5 (or future P4x16?) would ever just completely splinter off all by themselves. 65 teams just isn't enough to create drama around a season, and killing the 64-team tournament can't possibly be their goal. Instead, I can see them leading a less severe splinter whereas the P5 jump and invite (under beneficial terms to themselves) the Big East, AAC, MWC, A10, WCC, CUSA, IVY, MVC,  and maybe a few others.

[GGGG]

The Power 5 could create their own tournament and it would do just fine.  It wouldn't get the huge numbers like the current tournament does, but you are talking about the biggest schools with the largest alumni bases.  And you wouldn't have to split revenue with the NCAA or the rest of the conferences. 

And how would the viewership numbers be for the "Non-Power 5" tournament?  Pretty dismal in comparison.

It would be like when the Indy Racing League broke off from CART in the mid-90s.  It was ugly and brutal, but eventually the IRL won out because it had the marquee event (Indy 500) and eventually attracted the best drivers.

But I don't think it's going to happen.

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

I still refuse to believe the P5 (or future P4x16?) would ever just completely splinter off all by themselves. 65 teams just isn't enough to create drama around a season, and killing the 64-team tournament can't possibly be their goal. Instead, I can see them leading a less severe splinter whereas the P5 jump and invite (under beneficial terms to themselves) the Big East, AAC, MWC, A10, WCC, CUSA, IVY, MVC,  and maybe a few others.

This I could see.  Which wouldn't really hurt the Big East at all.  This is basically what it is now (minus the low majors), but with the BCS schools running the show instead of the corrupt NCAA. I am confident that the Big East schools will all be just fine.  The tin hat stuff is hilarious. 

[Aughnanure]

The Power 5 could create their own tournament and it would do just fine.  It wouldn't get the huge numbers like the current tournament does, but you are talking about the biggest schools with the largest alumni bases.  And you wouldn't have to split revenue with the NCAA or the rest of the conferences. 

And how would the viewership numbers be for the "Non-Power 5" tournament?  Pretty dismal in comparison.

It would be like when the Indy Racing League broke off from CART in the mid-90s.  It was ugly and brutal, but eventually the IRL won out because it had the marquee event (Indy 500) and eventually attracted the best drivers.

But I don't think it's going to happen.

But didn't that also coincide with the huge emergence of NASCAR? If they do this, wouldn't they open up a vulnerability to something else. IMO, if they kill the NCAA Tournament they are never getting it back. They'll get something, but it will be much weaker.

[Benny B]

This I could see.  Which wouldn't really hurt the Big East at all.  This is basically what it is now (minus the low majors), but with the BCS schools running the show instead of the corrupt NCAA. I am confident that the Big East schools will all be just fine.  The tin hat stuff is hilarious.

Are you actually insinuating the NCAA is more corrupt than the BCS?

[JamilJaeJamailJrJuan]

Are you actually insinuating the NCAA is more corrupt than the BCS?

Not really. Just saying that the BCS schools running the show wouldn't be all that different from what we have now with the NCAA.  This stuff may ultimately be really bad for low majors, but a 5 conference "national championship" would dilute the interest in the NCAA tournament significantly.  This I could see:

I still refuse to believe the P5 (or future P4x16?) would ever just completely splinter off all by themselves. 65 teams just isn't enough to create drama around a season, and killing the 64-team tournament can't possibly be their goal. Instead, I can see them leading a less severe splinter whereas the P5 jump and invite (under beneficial terms to themselves) the Big East, AAC, MWC, A10, WCC, CUSA, IVY, MVC,  and maybe a few others.

Which really wouldn't be an earth shattering change for the Big East.  What I am insinuating, is that none of this is going to happen soon, and if it does happen, the BE schools will be just fine.  The BE will remain better than a couple P5 conferences each and every year, and the BCS would be idiotic to cut that out. 

[Galway Eagle]

I say we should just break off and make a catholic league. I kid. I do agree with the regular season champion from those lower leagues, I think it'd lead to a more exciting NCAA tournament. 

[WarriorInNYC]

I say we should just break off and make a catholic league. I kid. I do agree with the regular season champion from those lower leagues, I think it'd lead to a more exciting NCAA tournament.

I'm not convinced it would make the NCAA tournament that much more exciting.  Marginal at best.

One thing it would do is destroy the excitement around the conference tournaments.  Those smaller tournaments are some of the most fun basketball to watch.  Those games would be for naught.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm not convinced it would make the NCAA tournament that much more exciting.  Marginal at best.

One thing it would do is destroy the excitement around the conference tournaments.  Those smaller tournaments are some of the most fun basketball to watch.  Those games would be for naught.

I respect that opinion but I maintain that if the smaller conferences could actually bring their best teams in they might have a fighting chance at advancing and gaining notoriety then.  For me the NCAA tournament is more exciting when Davidson or Wichita State, or VCU or Butler advance. And how many of those teams could've advanced to but never got the chance because they were off in their conference tournament?

[GGGG]

I respect that opinion but I maintain that if the smaller conferences could actually bring their best teams in they might have a fighting chance at advancing and gaining notoriety then.  For me the NCAA tournament is more exciting when Davidson or Wichita State, or VCU or Butler advance. And how many of those teams could've advanced to but never got the chance because they were off in their conference tournament?

From those types of mid-majors?  Very few.  If you are the regular season champ of the A10 or MVC (which those schools are) you are very likely going to make the tournament regardless.  And the years Butler was in the Final Four, they would have made the tournament had they won the Horizon tournament or not.

But low major schools?  I doubt conferences like the Northeast are going to represent well regardless of who they send.

[Litehouse]

If those teams can't win their conference tournament, what makes you think they can advance in the NCAA?

[CTWarrior]

From those types of mid-majors?  Very few.  If you are the regular season champ of the A10 or MVC (which those schools are) you are very likely going to make the tournament regardless.  And the years Butler was in the Final Four, they would have made the tournament had they won the Horizon tournament or not.

But low major schools?  I doubt conferences like the Northeast are going to represent well regardless of who they send.

Agree. There would be very negligible change in the amount of underdogs winning.  In fact the team that wins the tournament may be better than the regular season champ by tourney time anyway.  That tiny difference is not enough to kill the conference tourneys, which are loads of fun.

[Litehouse]

But didn't that also coincide with the huge emergence of NASCAR? If they do this, wouldn't they open up a vulnerability to something else. IMO, if they kill the NCAA Tournament they are never getting it back. They'll get something, but it will be much weaker.

I've always thought that if those conferences split off, that it would open the door for the other conferences like the Big East to start paying players and get the best talent.

[Galway Eagle]

From those types of mid-majors?  Very few.  If you are the regular season champ of the A10 or MVC (which those schools are) you are very likely going to make the tournament regardless.  And the years Butler was in the Final Four, they would have made the tournament had they won the Horizon tournament or not.

But low major schools?  I doubt conferences like the Northeast are going to represent well regardless of who they send.

Butler was an 8 seed the second FF year I doubt they'd be in without winning that tournament. 

Last year 16-17 Hampton made it instead of 25-8 North Carolina Central that went undefeated during conference play.  19-15 UAB instead of 27-9 LA Tech or 27-8 Old Dominion. 

I personally believe LA Tech or ODU could've made some better noise than UAB (yes I realize they took down Iowa St)

[GGGG]

Butler was an 8 seed the second FF year I doubt they'd be in without winning that tournament. 

Last year 16-17 Hampton made it instead of 25-8 North Carolina Central that went undefeated during conference play.  19-15 UAB instead of 27-9 LA Tech or 27-8 Old Dominion. 

I personally believe LA Tech or ODU could've made some better noise than UAB (yes I realize they took down Iowa St)

You think the defending runner-up who made it as an 8 seed would have been shut out had they not won the Horizon tournament?

And North Carolina Central, ODU or La Tech weren't going to make any additional progress than the conference tournament winners did.

And regardless, it is up to the conference who their champion is.  Not the NCAA.  The conferences have determined that it is best to have their conference tournament champion make the NCAAs.  (Mostly for financial reasons.)

[NotAnAlum]

I'm really getting sick of this constant carping from some coaches and league officials about how the regular season champ should get an automatic bid.  If you coach a team outside the top 8 conferences your season should be meaningful because your goal should be to win games and have a good season.  It should not be all about getting into the NCAA tournament.  Lets face it any team that has a legitimate shot at WINNING the national championship is going to get an at large bid even if they didn't win their tournament.  For those that win the regular season but lose in their tournament, you weren't going to win the national title anyway, enjoy the fact that you had a good season.  If your really that good win the NIT.  Its not the NCAA's job to admit all these secondary teams so that their coaches can say "I took us to the tournament".  Jeez, the next thing you know there will be a call for these small conference teams to play someone other than a #1 seed so that have a legitimate chance to Win a game in the NCAA tourney as a reward for having a good season.  Where does it stop. 

[Galway Eagle]

You think the defending runner-up who made it as an 8 seed would have been shut out had they not won the Horizon tournament?

And North Carolina Central, ODU or La Tech weren't going to make any additional progress than the conference tournament winners did.

And regardless, it is up to the conference who their champion is.  Not the NCAA.  The conferences have determined that it is best to have their conference tournament champion make the NCAAs.  (Mostly for financial reasons.)

Yes I do. How many times has the Horizon gotten multiple bids? Last time was 2009 so I just doubt it.  I know it's not the NCAA that decides doesn't change my opinion.  I would be very confident that LA Tech would've made noise on par or better than UAB. 

The bottom line is the NCAA tournament is supposed to be the tournament of the best teams and some of the best teams aren't in it.  Think back to 2012 if Murray St hadn't won their conference tournament it would've been a travesty to have a one loss team not make the NCAA tournament.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Considering that March Madness, the NCAA and CBS/Turner are in the beginning of a 14-year, $10.8 Billion contract, anyone that thinks there will be widespread changes during that time are just flat-out wrong.  Nothing (major) is changing to the tournament until that deal runs out in the mid-2020s.  That deal that was signed also included language to bump the tournament to 68 teams (from 64), so 68 is staying for awhile too.

Everyone needs to remember that the NCAA moves at a snail's pace.  It took them nearly 10 years to create the College Football Playoff.  It took them even longer to come up with the Bowl Championship Series.  Even if non-Power 5 schools should worry (which they shouldn't be), they would take solace in the fact that nothing major will change for the foreseeable future.

Marquette and the Big East will be included in the P5 discussions, if a breakaway is to ever occur. 

[GGGG]

Yes I do. How many times has the Horizon gotten multiple bids? Last time was 2009 so I just doubt it. 

It's not about the conferences.  It's about the teams.  The selection committee doesn't say "well I would invite them as an at large, but they are from the Horizon League."

There were 13 at-large teams seeded below them in this tournament.  Do you really think the Horizon League championship victory over UWM allowed them to jump over all 13 of these teams?